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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Does Barker explain just why just why Hezekiah and Josiah made these important changes? We need to know why.


There are several theses, but I had banged out this portion in response to an Amazon query:

"It has long been fashionable to link Deuteronomy with Josiah's reform, but no easy equasion is possible between that Law book and an earlier version of Deuteronomy.[3] ([3] I have often wondered if the mysterious book might not have been the 'Book of Yahweh' {Isa.34:16}, which threatened evil cities with doom. Isaiah's 'testimony' {Isa. 8:16} is another possibility, since it concerned national independence, and the fearful result of failing to trust the Holy One. Neither book would have been in public use during Manasseh's time, under whom, by tradition, Isaiah is said to have been martyred; (see the Martyrdom of Isaiah.) The other version of the story in 2 Chron. 34 differs at several points from 2 Kings 22-23, and only the Deuteronomic versions invites the association of Deuteronomy and Josiah's reform. This tells us that the historians WANTED to associate Deuteronomy with the cultic reform. If we did not have this directive, the evidence of the book suggests that they were opposed to the ways of 'Canaan', and not the 'older cult'. This is important; much of what they considered to be pagan and Canaanite may not have been seen as such by other worshippers in Jerusalem. Any questions raised by Deuteronomy cannot be answered solely from materials which it has shaped and influenced. Thus the Deuteronomic histories can only be used to show how these people wrote, or rather rewrote, their people's history. They do not tell us how things actually happened. What we should like to know is why they wanted to rewrite everything, why they argued from a pattern of history, and not from a pattern within the cult. Because of the nature of our evidence, any reconstruction of life in pre-monarchial Israel, any speculation as to the origin of Holy War, or any attempt to describe the role of the kings in Jerusalem may involve us in circular arguments. The histories do, however, show that there were certain differences between their ideals and those of the present form of Deuteronomy. These differences are much debated, but they seem to indicate a development, and we must seek reasons for any changes. The last event recorded by the histories is the reference to Jehoiachin in 561, and his being well treated by the king of Babylon. For this we may conclude only that the histories were written or updated AFTER this time; that they reflect the views of the early sixth century may perhaps be better deduced from a comparison of 2 Kings 24:3ff and Jer. 31:29 or Ezek. 18. The prophets' protest about inherited guilt must surely be a comment upon the philosophy of the Deuteronomic historians. The histories set out to show that the Deuteronomists had been correct; Jerusalem had fallen because of the evil ways of her kings, and these had been defined as deviation from the Deuteronomists' standards. Notice that the KINGS and their disobedience are deemed responsible for the fate of their people, an echo of the older ways, even though the Deuteronomists have adapted this assumption to their own needs. The histories point to prophecies fulfilled, and to great sin inherited by later generations. The exiles were left to weep by the waters of Babylon. One cannot help feeling that such an interpretation of history, offered to a people in despair, can only have come from a rather vindictive mentality, perhaps from a group whose views were not widely accepted. Deuteronomy itself is different. It sees a new era beginning, and the book is now thought to be a picture of the exiles themselves. Older scholars have read the book as a product of the amphictyony, nationalist, exclusivist and limiting the chosen people to those who had known Egypt, or they have read it as a reform programme for the northern kingdom after the fall of Samaria; but if Deuteronomy is a product of the exile, then the **experience of exile is a possible explanation for the differences between the histories and the book of Deuteronomy itself.**

One of the most frequently recurring conclusions in the study of Deuteronomy is that it represents fusions of various blocks of material separately attested elsewhere. Moses-Sinai traditions, for example were fused with David-Zion traditions. The extent of fusion is debated, and given the present uncertainty as to the precise relationship of the Sinai and Jerusalem traditions in the time of the monarchy, the debate cannot reach a conclusion. If, however, a Moses tradition eclipsed a David tradition, this must be established on the basis of non-Deuteronomic materials if it is to be more than a mere retrojection. The situation of the exile could have given rise to such fusions as we find in Deuteronomy; religious establishments and their critics can often find a 'modus vivendi' in the common interest of survival. Such a necessity seems to have prompted the compilation of the Pentateuch and with its extraordinary fusions of desert and city traditions. We now attempt to disentangle the various strands, but the purpose of the compilations was to fuse them. It is not hard to imagine divisions within Jerusalem in the early sixth century, just before the fall of the city. There were reformers alongside such colourful characters as we meet in Ezekiel, yet all of them found themselves thrown together in the relatively small community of the exile; and all, I have no doubt, were asking the same question. All of them would have known the Second Isaiah, and the interaction between the reforming ways of the Deuteronomists and the inspiration of the prophet account, I believe, form the direction of developments within the exile.

The relationship of the Deuteronomists and the prophets is fraught with problems, the historians, for example, emphasized the role of prophecy, and yet the writing prophets, with the exception of Isaiah, are not mentioned; the historians emphasized prophecy which had been fulfilled and thus shown to be true, whereas the writing prophets were preserved because their words had not yet been fulfilled. This indicates that the Deuteronomists' view of prophecy was different from that of the people who preserved the writing prophets. It could indicate that the Deuteronomic idea of fulfilment in present or past events was something new. Or it could indicate that the criterion for authenticity was not derived from the claim to inspiration in the heavenly council, but from something more easily demonstrable. We cannot tell. Nor can we know the criterion of authenticity adopted by those who kept the writing expecting fulfilment. All we know is that these writings had an established status before the Deuteronomists became influential, because they were EDITED by the Deuteronomists.[13] They were assimilated and redefined. The whole question of the role of the Deuteronomists in the transmission of prophecy is vexed and complex, but this must not distract us from a more fundamental problem; they were transmitting something which modified and which, in their hands, became something other than it had originally been...

[13] Caroll (1979) offers an explanation based upon the theory of cognitive dissonance. Blenkinsopp (1977), p.8: 'Clerical scribalism met the prophetic claim not by confrontation but by assimilation and redefinition, seeking to bring prophecy within its own institutional grid.' This implies a fundamental distinction between prophecy and law, as law was later understood. The unanswered question is whether the Torah scribes and the prophets were originally part of the same tradition. Echoes of conflicts like this can be seen in the Pentateuch; the priests challenge the Mosaic monopoly (Num. 12); the congregation, led by a Levite and men of Rueben, accuse Moses of making himself a prince, when all the congregation are holy (Num. 16:3, 13). Are these aspects of the Deuteronomic development, with its twin concerns of democratizing the older royal theology, and exalting Moses? Ginzberg (1909), vol. vi. p. 298, describes the tradition, based on Num. 16, that they condemned, as they went down into the earth, cried 'Moses is the rightful KING and the true prophet, Aaron the legitimate High Priest, and Torah has been given by God.' One wonders what prompted this confession!"
Excerpt from Deuteronomy, 'The Older Testament' by Margaret Barker

I lean a little toward the consolidation of religion and financial profit in Jerusalem - though that may well be tainted by other readings in addition to Barker's.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Allan,
Have you heard anything from yba lately?

Just concerned about him...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Where’d everyone go?
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Where’d everyone go?

To the refugee camp. And although I would have preferred this "Pub & Coffee Shop" thread, seems we only need one thread going at a time, and it looks like "Refugee Camp" won out.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Where’d everyone go?

To the refugee camp. And although I would have preferred this "Pub & Coffee Shop" thread, seems we only need one thread going at a time, and it looks like "Refugee Camp" won out.


Seems so.
 
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When I first became Christian some 15 years ago, I recall listening to several TV broadcasts of the then-popular preachers. One such preacher was Rod Parsely. The first few broadcasts were fairly tame, but a few things he said gave me pause. He was preaching, in so many words, of taking over the government with the "current harvest of young believers." He was asking for donations to "send these kids to law school so we can get them into politics" or words to that effect, to "make this a Godly nation." Of course, there were no biblically supporting passages referenced.

Then, one day when I was watching, he went about the business of "stirring up the congregation" until he had everyone on their feet babbling like idiots until the whole congregation erupted into chaos. He then walked amongst the chaos smacking people on the forehead until they fell down. If it didn't work the first time, he'd smack 'em again. I'm beginning to get the feeling that this isn't what my Bible calls Christian. In fact, it's looking a whole lot like some of the stuff Paul preached against.

At the end of the program he offered to send listeners "an anointing" via mail in the form of a small piece of cloth anointed with oil. At that point I KNOW I'm not listening to a New Testament preacher but a con artist.

I've since learned that this charismatic movement has expanded to include "Dominion Camp Meetings" and "New Apostolic Reformation" movements whereby congregants are taught that they are to become "new apostles and prophets and lead God's end-times army by establishing the Kingdom Of God on earth" by taking over all authority on earth.

The list of pastors who are on-board with this movement is long, but a few of the more well-known ones are Jesse Duplantis, Samuel Rodriguez, Perry Stone, Steven Furtic, Kimberly Pothier, Carpenter, Kenneth Copeland, Heidi Baker, among others.

Dominionist: Rod Parsely

"Parsley is also a dominionist. This too, grows out of the Word-Faith error. Dominionism teaches that powerful anointed men will bring in all the benefits (healings and miracles) of the millennium, creating a Utopia to which Christ will return. Somehow they will reverse the consequences of the Fall and totally subdue disease and the hard circumstances of life."

"Albert James Dager, of the apologetic ministry Media Spotlight, says Dominion teaching is predicated on three basic beliefs:
“1) Satan usurped man’s dominion over the earth through the temptation of Adam and Eve;
2) The Church is God’s instrument to take dominion back from Satan;
3) Jesus cannot or will not return until the Church has taken dominion by gaining control of the earth’s governmental and social institutions.”31
Michael Moriarty further explains Dominionism and Parsley’s connection:
“In any event, the new charismatics continue to stress the need for the church to exercise dominion over society. Power-packed conferences like Dominion ‘90 (July 29-Aug. 3, 1990), hosted by Pastor Rod Parsley and World Harvest Church in Columbus, Ohio, serve to raise the consciousness of the church to the responsibility to take dominion over society. Some charismatics claim that ‘God told them’ that Jesus will return in our generation ‘if’ the church becomes more responsible in its dominion pursuit.”32
by G. Richard Fisher
http://philadelphians.50megs.com/rparsely.html

"Called the Ohio Restoration Project, this group intends to take over the Republican Party in Ohio. Once they have done this through electoral primaries, they will also run all Democrats off the state map.
Their plan is to run good people out of office if they are pro-choice or supportive of equal rights for gays. In their website, these so-called Patriot Pastors will "shoot down" any politicians or candidates who they deem "vague or noncommittal on issues of abortion and gay rights."
They have transportation set up for the elderly and child care for the young to attend their "God Rallies." Rod Parsley of World Harvest Church in Canal Winchester is their leader. In his book Silent No More, Parsley outlines which issues will either drive people from office or put them in office."
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2008/5/23/521338/-

I have never heard any of these preachers quote Jesus' "Do unto others as you would have done unto you." They seem all about taking dominion and issuing justice as is done under Sharia Law, according to their own interpretation, of course. IOW, they seem intent on setting themselves up as God by using their own biblical interpretation as the standard by which everyone is measured.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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You had to go there!

If I recall these proclamations do start with some biblical quote about man having dominion over the earth, or areference to the state that revelation says will occur in the last days, but nowhere does it say that man can change the course of God’s plan, or hurry it up! And yes, after the initial reference there hasn’t been much other reference needed to “rally the troops” so to speak.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
You had to go there!

If I recall these proclamations do start with some biblical quote about man having dominion over the earth, or areference to the state that revelation says will occur in the last days, but nowhere does it say that man can change the course of God’s plan, or hurry it up! And yes, after the initial reference there hasn’t been much other reference needed to “rally the troops” so to speak.


I often wonder why certain Christians go back to the OT for support of some of their theological nonsense...

OT = Old Covenant
NT = New Covenant

Hebrews 2:8 "You have put all things in subjection under his feet [Jesus - NOT CHURCH]. For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him."

What would be so amusing, if it weren't so sad, is that you have some Christians saying the anti-Christ will take over all the governments of the world, and then you have other Christians giving their congregations a mandate to do just that!

Had a brother of mine to state that all gays should be shot. Just as cool as I could muster it, I said, "What part of eye for an eye and tooth for tooth does that fall under? But since you proclaim to be a Christian, what part of 'Do unto others as you would have done unto you' does it fall under? Furthermore, what part of 'Do not judge, or you will be judged. For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you' have you missed?"

"Ah...well...then what are we supposed to do?"

"Mind your own business and let God be the judge. 1 Corinthians 5:12 "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?" - You don't want them in your church, then you have a voice, but outside, that is the legal system's business. However, the ultimate judge is God. Not you, and not the Church."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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If this is a move to get us all back here, I'm all for it.

Your entire post is in line with what I was trying to say to Vicki; my thanks.

quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

“1) Satan usurped man’s dominion over the earth through the temptation of Adam and Eve;
2) The Church is God’s instrument to take dominion back from Satan;
3) Jesus cannot or will not return until the Church has taken dominion by gaining control of the earth’s governmental and social institutions.”31


I just can't come to terms with this.

To begin with, the Christian Devil does not, can not, exist in the Jewish Bible, the Word of God direct to his Chosen People. The symbol comes mainly from Zarathustra.

We now know that virtually all humans, just like all other evolved social/tribal animals, are genetically programmed with the desire to know how best to be part of the tribe, pack, herd, pod, and so on. That cannot fail, unless the education system fails. I know from my own decades as volunteer coach and tutor/mentor that not once have I met a genuinely bad youngster.

The Christian Devil is an acceptable symbol of how badly we can go wrong. Yet how many Christians, Muslims, Jews, knowingly do the wrong thing? More than half the world lives under one of those three religions. So many of our political leaders proclaim they are avowedly religious, yet they live in a super-wealthy world where millions die of avoidable starvation, disease, pollution. [Most of our politicians, anyway. We have had our share here of avowed atheists, and they have been among our most spiritually caring.]

I can accept that some, like our mrs exp, still live with the YEC, but how can any young person these days not understand that all the evidence demonstrates otherwise?

I constantly watch documentaries from all over the world; time and again I see clear geological evidence our world just has to be billions of years old. How anyone can look at the Grand Canyon and not understand this is beyond me. Layers upon layers of different soil types laid down when this was all once under water.

Wish I could remember the title, however I saw a program t'other night which just about wrapped everything up for me. Using all manner of new technology, they showed that our planet is indeed a single entity. We kept noticing little comments from the relevant scientists from different fields which sounded as though they were desperately trying to avoid describing our planet as Gaia.

Much of it we knew, such as the essential winds carrying vital elements from the Sahara to fertilise the Amazon basin. What we did not know was this came, in large part, from the remains of algae which once flourished in a Sahara lake.

Our entire world is interdependent. We all know of the massive ocean currents of cold and warm water which meet and create an environment where all manner of life forms flourish. What may not be so obvious is just how everything depends on the flow of these waters and winds.

One thought we had: had this planet been created by a deity, it made an enormously complex way of doing this. Why not just create a world which is totally fertile, automatically renewable? After all, in this respect it is only a home for us.

The complexity of our world is reason enough to accept some version of The Brahman, but it is nothing at all like what these religions teach.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1597 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:

If I recall these proclamations do start with some biblical quote about man having dominion over the earth...


Perhaps the most criminally destructive phrase we have ever come up with.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1597 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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Picture of Allan
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

I often wonder why certain Christians go back to the OT for support of some of their theological nonsense...

OT = Old Covenant
NT = New Covenant

Hebrews 2:8 "You have put all things in subjection under his feet [Jesus - NOT CHURCH]. For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him."

What would be so amusing, if it weren't so sad, is that you have some Christians saying the anti-Christ will take over all the governments of the world, and then you have other Christians giving their congregations a mandate to do just that!

Had a brother of mine to state that all gays should be shot. Just as cool as I could muster it, I said, "What part of eye for an eye and tooth for tooth does that fall under? But since you proclaim to be a Christian, what part of 'Do unto others as you would have done unto you' does it fall under? Furthermore, what part of 'Do not judge, or you will be judged. For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you' have you missed?"

"Ah...well...then what are we supposed to do?"

"Mind your own business and let God be the judge. 1 Corinthians 5:12 "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?" - You don't want them in your church, then you have a voice, but outside, that is the legal system's business. However, the ultimate judge is God. Not you, and not the Church."[/QUOTE]

Sadly, it is time to feed the birds.

Had a great ASC time last night.

Years ago, I had at least one possum paying regular visits, but haven't seen it in yonks.

Last night, two joined me :-)

Will keep you posted on them.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1597 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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Picture of That JR Thang
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
If this is a move to get us all back here, I'm all for it.

Your entire post is in line with what I was trying to say to Vicki; my thanks.

Originally posted by That JR Thang:

“1) Satan usurped man’s dominion over the earth through the temptation of Adam and Eve;
2) The Church is God’s instrument to take dominion back from Satan;
3) Jesus cannot or will not return until the Church has taken dominion by gaining control of the earth’s governmental and social institutions.”31


JR: My pleasure.

quote:
Allan: I just can't come to terms with this.

To begin with, the Christian Devil does not, can not, exist in the Jewish Bible, the Word of God direct to his Chosen People. The symbol comes mainly from Zarathustra.


JR:
1) You and I both know that the "Jewish Bible" has multiple sources.

2) We both also know that it was redacted (at least 1 of those redactions came after the first century), and as such, it cannot be accepted as the sole source for Christian concepts.

3) That said, it is literalism that has damaged the NT use of the concept.

quote:
Allan: We now know that virtually all humans, just like all other evolved social/tribal animals, are genetically programmed with the desire to know how best to be part of the tribe, pack, herd, pod, and so on. That cannot fail, unless the education system fails. I know from my own decades as volunteer coach and tutor/mentor that not once have I met a genuinely bad youngster.

The Christian Devil is an acceptable symbol of how badly we can go wrong. Yet how many Christians, Muslims, Jews, knowingly do the wrong thing? More than half the world lives under one of those three religions. So many of our political leaders proclaim they are avowedly religious, yet they live in a super-wealthy world where millions die of avoidable starvation, disease, pollution. [Most of our politicians, anyway. We have had our share here of avowed atheists, and they have been among our most spiritually caring.]


JR: Yes, I too blame our education system. They no longer teach children how to think nor how to study, only to memorize. And Bible School does exactly the same thing.

As for doing the wrong thing, I think Paul put it best:

Romans 7:15 "We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not desire, I admit that the Law is good.…"

Galatians 5:17 "For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to one another, so that you do not do what you want."

And since the denominations tend to focus on our theology and tout it as the one true theology instead of teaching congregants HOW TO LIVE the Christian life, we have a lot (majority?) of Christians arguing their theology rather than living Christianity.

Must say I was very fortunate to have attended the United Methodist Church from my earliest days of becoming Christian because living Christianity is what they focus on.

quote:
Allan: I can accept that some, like our mrs exp, still live with the YEC, but how can any young person these days not understand that all the evidence demonstrates otherwise?

I constantly watch documentaries from all over the world; time and again I see clear geological evidence our world just has to be billions of years old. How anyone can look at the Grand Canyon and not understand this is beyond me. Layers upon layers of different soil types laid down when this was all once under water.


JR: It's because they have misplaced their faith. They've placed it in what they believe (i.e., theology) rather than in God. Never mind that they have also idolized their interpretation of the written word over the spirit of the text.

quote:
Allan: Wish I could remember the title, however I saw a program t'other night which just about wrapped everything up for me. Using all manner of new technology, they showed that our planet is indeed a single entity. We kept noticing little comments from the relevant scientists from different fields which sounded as though they were desperately trying to avoid describing our planet as Gaia.

Much of it we knew, such as the essential winds carrying vital elements from the Sahara to fertilise the Amazon basin. What we did not know was this came, in large part, from the remains of algae which once flourished in a Sahara lake.

Our entire world is interdependent. We all know of the massive ocean currents of cold and warm water which meet and create an environment where all manner of life forms flourish. What may not be so obvious is just how everything depends on the flow of these waters and winds.

One thought we had: had this planet been created by a deity, it made an enormously complex way of doing this. Why not just create a world which is totally fertile, automatically renewable? After all, in this respect it is only a home for us.

The complexity of our world is reason enough to accept some version of The Brahman, but it is nothing at all like what these religions teach.


Maybe the idea of the deity was to teach us hard-headed and self-centered Homosapiens to learn about our place in the universe, how our behavior affects it, and to treat the earth as our home rather than a garbage dump to become the next generation's problem? At some point we are going to have to buckle down and come to grips with it; to learn "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" is the only way, or we are going to have to shoulder the consequences of our selfish destruction of future generations.

And BTW, Genesis 2:15 states "The LORD God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it." So, even according to the Bible, we were not placed here with dominion without responsibility. But the self-centered tend to grab the dominion and overlook the responsibility.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 4263 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Sadly, it is time to feed the birds.

Had a great ASC time last night.

Years ago, I had at least one possum paying regular visits, but haven't seen it in yonks.

Last night, two joined me :-)

Will keep you posted on them.


There are times I'm absolutely amazed at the raccoons and possums that congregate at my back door looking for bits of leftover kitty food and water.

Oh, and where there are two, you may just be in for a treat of several little babies in the near future?-) Won't that make you happy!

Both the raccoons and possums flock to the feral cat's water containers when I leave them out at night; a little trick you might want to try for keeping your possums around. A few table scraps won't hurt either...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 4263 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
If this is a move to get us all back here, I'm all for it.

Your entire post is in line with what I was trying to say to Vicki; my thanks.

quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

“1) Satan usurped man’s dominion over the earth through the temptation of Adam and Eve;
2) The Church is God’s instrument to take dominion back from Satan;
3) Jesus cannot or will not return until the Church has taken dominion by gaining control of the earth’s governmental and social institutions.”31


I just can't come to terms with this.

To begin with, the Christian Devil does not, can not, exist in the Jewish Bible, the Word of God direct to his Chosen People. The symbol comes mainly from Zarathustra.

We now know that virtually all humans, just like all other evolved social/tribal animals, are genetically programmed with the desire to know how best to be part of the tribe, pack, herd, pod, and so on. That cannot fail, unless the education system fails. I know from my own decades as volunteer coach and tutor/mentor that not once have I met a genuinely bad youngster.

The Christian Devil is an acceptable symbol of how badly we can go wrong. Yet how many Christians, Muslims, Jews, knowingly do the wrong thing? More than half the world lives under one of those three religions. So many of our political leaders proclaim they are avowedly religious, yet they live in a super-wealthy world where millions die of avoidable starvation, disease, pollution. [Most of our politicians, anyway. We have had our share here of avowed atheists, and they have been among our most spiritually caring.]

I can accept that some, like our mrs exp, still live with the YEC, but how can any young person these days not understand that all the evidence demonstrates otherwise?

I constantly watch documentaries from all over the world; time and again I see clear geological evidence our world just has to be billions of years old. How anyone can look at the Grand Canyon and not understand this is beyond me. Layers upon layers of different soil types laid down when this was all once under water.

Wish I could remember the title, however I saw a program t'other night which just about wrapped everything up for me. Using all manner of new technology, they showed that our planet is indeed a single entity. We kept noticing little comments from the relevant scientists from different fields which sounded as though they were desperately trying to avoid describing our planet as Gaia.

Much of it we knew, such as the essential winds carrying vital elements from the Sahara to fertilise the Amazon basin. What we did not know was this came, in large part, from the remains of algae which once flourished in a Sahara lake.

Our entire world is interdependent. We all know of the massive ocean currents of cold and warm water which meet and create an environment where all manner of life forms flourish. What may not be so obvious is just how everything depends on the flow of these waters and winds.

One thought we had: had this planet been created by a deity, it made an enormously complex way of doing this. Why not just create a world which is totally fertile, automatically renewable? After all, in this respect it is only a home for us.

The complexity of our world is reason enough to accept some version of The Brahman, but it is nothing at all like what these religions teach.


Interesting thought about not making things so complex. Is there nothing to be gained in that complexity? Was perhaps the garden of Eden simple and it “evolved” to something more complex? If man was indeed early in creation could the changes been from his tinkering
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:

If I recall these proclamations do start with some biblical quote about man having dominion over the earth...


Perhaps the most criminally destructive phrase we have ever come up with.


Indeed!
 
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
One thought we had: had this planet been created by a deity, it made an enormously complex way of doing this. Why not just create a world which is totally fertile, automatically renewable? After all, in this respect it is only a home for us.

The complexity of our world is reason enough to accept some version of The Brahman, but it is nothing at all like what these religions teach.


Interesting thought about not making things so complex. Is there nothing to be gained in that complexity? Was perhaps the garden of Eden simple and it “evolved” to something more complex? If man was indeed early in creation could the changes been from his tinkering


I wouldn't say there's nothing like The Brahman in Judeo-Christianity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentinianism#Synopsis

quote:
According to Irenaeus, the Valentinians believed that at the beginning there was a Pleroma (literally, a 'fullness'). At the centre of the Pleroma was the primal Father or Bythos, the beginning of all things who, after ages of silence and contemplation, projected thirty Aeons, heavenly archetypes... Man, the highest being in this material world, participates in both the spiritual and the material nature...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_Sof

quote:
Ein Sof, or Ayn Sof (/eɪn sɒf/, Hebrew: אין סוף‬), in Kabbalah, is understood as God prior to his self-manifestation in the production of any spiritual realm, probably derived from Ibn Gabirol's term, "the Endless One" (she-en lo tiklah). Ein Sof may be translated as "unending", "(there is) no end", or infinity.[1] It was first used by Azriel, who, sharing the Neoplatonic belief that God can have no desire, thought, word, or action, emphasized by it the negation of any attribute. Of the Ein Sof, nothing ("Ein") can be grasped ("Sof"-limitation). It is the origin of the Ohr Ein Sof, the "Infinite Light" of paradoxical divine self-knowledge, nullified within the Ein Sof prior to creation. In Lurianic Kabbalah, the first act of creation, the Tzimtzum self "withdrawal" of God to create an "empty space", takes place from there. In Hasidism, the Tzimtzum is only the illusionary concealment of the Ohr Ein Sof, giving rise to monistic panentheism. Consequently, Hasidism focuses on the Atzmus divine essence, rooted higher within the Godhead than the Ein Sof, which is limited to infinitude, and reflected in the essence (Etzem) of the Torah and the soul.


back to me: Brahman/Ein Sof/Bythos fit with a Leibniz pluralistic idealism and a Spinoza pantheism. Physics-wise it's a Planck scale information space (with a superposition consciousness) which is literally our alpha and omega. This creates an all roads lead to Rome effect via future effecting past aka a Thomas Nagel teleological evolution:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_and_Cosmos

quote:
Nagel's position is that principles of an entirely different kind may account for the emergence of life, and in particular conscious life, and that those principles may be teleological, rather than materialist or mechanistic. He stresses that his argument is not a religious one (he is an atheist)...


Basically the only difference between theology and atheism is whether consciousness exists at the fundamental Brahman/Ein Sof/Bythos Planck scale. I believe via Roger Penrose/Paola Zizzi/Tony Smith that it does. It's complex simply because the physics of God's Planck scale heaven and its low energy symmetry breaking emanations to get us is complex with or without considering God's consciousness. Eden has a more spiritual 4,2 conformal spacetime metric instead of our 3,1 Minkowski one.

http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/~lu...cs/u/unimodular.html
 
Posts: 900 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
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No sign of the possums. They get plenty of fresh water each night, so can have a drink before the next morning's birds have a bath.

quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

1) You and I both know that the "Jewish Bible" has multiple sources.

2) We both also know that it was redacted (at least 1 of those redactions came after the first century), and as such, it cannot be accepted as the sole source for Christian concepts.

3) That said, it is literalism that has damaged the NT use of the concept.


Had another interesting ASC while thinking about the Christian Devil and Angra Mainyu aka Ahriman.

Does the God versus the Christian Devil concept arise from a far-ancient universal concept of good behaviour versus bad behaviour in the small hunter-gatherer tribes?

Think of God versus Satan, Ahura Mazda versus Angra Mainyu, and, of course, the Gnostic Original Creator versus the demi-urge.

Then I saw a brief mention of a similar conflict between The Brahman and the lesser Brahma.

We all know how the real meanings of ancient mythologies, metaphorical spiritual symbols, legends were all too often lost as they were adapted to suit changing environments.

As you know, my primary interest is in humanity long before we developed the concept of deities (except maybe the Rainbow Serpent).

Way back then, the only concern was managing human behaviour to ensure the survival of the tribe.

The Australians had their share of monsters out to get them, however I suspect these originated as a means of keeping children from wandering off at night and getting lost. Apart from crocodiles in the far north and a fair share of dangerous snakes and spiders, there is little in the way of real predators here, however it would be easy for a child to drown or be lost at night.

The next step would have been to elaborate on those monsters as a means of making sure adults behaved properly; not all that hard, given that there would be no more than 100 or so in each tribe. Given that they all lived in each other's metaphorical pockets, everyone in the tribe would have been under surveillance 24/7 (have you seen the movie Ten Canoes?)

You know I see no difference at all between the 15,000yo Atherton Tableland legend of the Rainbow Serpent causing terrible damage because two lads broke the rules, and the much-later Sodom and Gomorrah of the Bible. Have some reservations, however I suspect Jung was on the right track with his universal archetypes.

For me, full-time deities began some time after we started farming, building towns and cities. I've seen temples in Çatalhöyük, and wonder if that heralded the rise of the priest class.
https://www.google.com.au/sear...kIMg&biw=973&bih=910

Forever before that, worship took place in the open-air sacred sites. I'm OK with water diviners, and suspect, too, those sites were above underground streams such as at Chartres Cathedral (maybe that indicates a greater need for exploration of ley lines).

http://www.ancient-origins.net...nd-christians-005482
The monumental Chartres Cathedral hides within its walls stories which connect the world of ancient Druids, the cult of the Divine Feminine (you bewdy!!) and Christianity. It is located on a leyline linking Glastonbury, Stonehenge, and the Pyramids of Egypt. For centuries it has been one of the symbols of French Christianity.
However, before the times of Christianity, the site where the cathedral is located was a very important place in the pagan belief system. Its legendary roots come from the time when Druids, the Celtic priests of Britain and Gaul, held sacred rites there. The territory of Chartres was highly influenced by the Carnutes (thus Chartres), a Gaulish people who had a vast Druid assembly. They were mentioned by Gaius Julius Caesar and Livy, who recorded the legendary traditions of the Carnutes.
...In the legends, the Druids believed that this was a place where spiritual energy emanates from underground (water emanations?)

Aha. It pays to delve deeper (from the above site):
During the Gallo-Roman times, the underground waters of the site were believed to have been revered by the Druids. Legend also says that Roman soldiers attacked Christians while they were celebrating their faith at the virgin shrine. It seems that Christians identified the mother goddess of the Druids with the virgin Mary. This too may have become the basis for future ideas to building a magnificent cathedral at the site. The building began on a hill at Chartres around the 4th century AD.

Every ASC drives ICB deeper into our assurance we have lost the plot. We need to go back to the original mythologies and start again. Did you see the fight I got into on Amazon when I said we would have benefited greatly during the Enlightenment had we known the mythology of Bralgah -- no matter how great an individual thinks they are, the tribe MUST come first.

(My GP is on vacation, and I had fun with his replacement, a young woman whose partner is into NLP. I'm hoping she will agree at some time that he and I share a pint or three of Guinness. I told her my four BP medications have now been reduced to one because I followed your(?) advice to start on beetroot tablets.)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1597 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Interesting thought about not making things so complex. Is there nothing to be gained in that complexity? Was perhaps the garden of Eden simple and it “evolved” to something more complex? If man was indeed early in creation could the changes been from his tinkering


Can't see that. This observer prefers the concept of (given that we each create our deities in our own image)a Brahman-type fashioning infinite numbers of universes, each with its own slightly different set of "natural" laws, then sitting back to see what happens in each. Unlike ICB, though, this deity has no intention of interfering in any way.

Driving ourself crazy chasing up all these questions. Have long accepted there is simply far too much information on any subject for anyone to really get a firm grip on it.

Maybe one day we will have computer programs which can match up everything we know on each subject. Keep finding examples of individual scientific fields where scientists know next to nothing about highly relevant information contained in other fields.

Our curiosity drives us crazy.

Looking for something relevant to your post, we found this instead:

Why do spiders make great baseball players?
Because they know how to catch flies.

See what you think of the concept proposed here:

https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/...in-when-you-hear-pun
For the study, led by University of Windsor psychologist Lori Buchanan, a team of researchers presented participants with a pun on one side of their visual field, so that it would be processed first by one side of the brain — things viewed on the right go to the left hemisphere, and things on the left go to to the right. Among the puns they used was a variation on the spider joke above, along with this gem: “They replaced the baseball with an orange to add some zest to the game.” (“In honor of M. P. Bryden’s love for the game,” they wrote, referring to a psychologist who studied left-right differences, “our pun examples will be baseball-related when possible.”)
With each pun, Buchanan and her colleagues timed how long it took the participant to catch the wordplay on the screen. Overall, they found, puns in the right visual field sparked a quicker reaction time, suggesting that the left side of the brain takes the lead when it comes to sorting out puns from straight language. “The left hemisphere is the linguistic hemisphere, so it’s the one that processes most of the language aspects of the pun, with the right hemisphere kicking in a bit later,” Buchanan told Scientific American.
... “Humor emerges when the right hemisphere subsequently clues us in to the word’s other, unanticipated meaning, triggering what Buchanan calls a ‘surprise reinterpretation.’”

ICB has been giving deep ASC thought to words, and we are not even close to understanding how we use them. Beginning to think the 20 years Druids spent developing their phenomenal memories also included learning a deep understanding of words. So far, the best we 21st century types have to offer is the advertising psychologists working on our fears and sublimated urges to make sure we buy all their products.

I have no bother accepting that things which mean nothing to me are of great importance to many others, but check some of the products on our markets and ask why on earth any right-minded person would spend money on them.

One thing all reporters do is write their story then go away to do something unrelated. We then come back, and all too often change some of the words to make sure we get the right message across.

In our ASCs, we can do that time and again, replacing one word then replacing the replacement to minimise optional interpretations.

Great fun.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1597 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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Originally posted by bluelamp:

I wouldn't say there's nothing like The Brahman in Judeo-Christianity:

quote:
According to Irenaeus, the Valentinians believed that at the beginning there was a Pleroma (literally, a 'fullness'). At the centre of the Pleroma was the primal Father or Bythos, the beginning of all things who, after ages of silence and contemplation, projected thirty Aeons, heavenly archetypes... Man, the highest being in this material world, participates in both the spiritual and the material nature...


quote:
Ein Sof, or Ayn Sof (/eɪn sɒf/, Hebrew: אין סוף‬), in Kabbalah, is understood as God prior to his self-manifestation in the production of any spiritual realm, probably derived from Ibn Gabirol's term, "the Endless One" (she-en lo tiklah). Ein Sof may be translated as "unending", "(there is) no end", or infinity.[1] It was first used by Azriel, who, sharing the Neoplatonic belief that God can have no desire, thought, word, or action, emphasized by it the negation of any attribute. Of the Ein Sof, nothing ("Ein") can be grasped ("Sof"-limitation). It is the origin of the Ohr Ein Sof, the "Infinite Light" of paradoxical divine self-knowledge, nullified within the Ein Sof prior to creation. In Lurianic Kabbalah, the first act of creation, the Tzimtzum self "withdrawal" of God to create an "empty space", takes place from there. In Hasidism, the Tzimtzum is only the illusionary concealment of the Ohr Ein Sof, giving rise to monistic panentheism. Consequently, Hasidism focuses on the Atzmus divine essence, rooted higher within the Godhead than the Ein Sof, which is limited to infinitude, and reflected in the essence (Etzem) of the Torah and the soul.


back to me: Brahman/Ein Sof/Bythos fit with a Leibniz pluralistic idealism and a Spinoza pantheism. Physics-wise it's a Planck scale information space (with a superposition consciousness) which is literally our alpha and omega. This creates an all roads lead to Rome effect via future effecting past aka a Thomas Nagel teleological evolution:

Basically the only difference between theology and atheism is whether consciousness exists at the fundamental Brahman/Ein Sof/Bythos Planck scale. I believe via Roger Penrose/Paola Zizzi/Tony Smith that it does. It's complex simply because the physics of God's Planck scale heaven and its low energy symmetry breaking emanations to get us is complex with or without considering God's consciousness. Eden has a more spiritual 4,2 conformal spacetime metric instead of our 3,1 Minkowski one.


Allan: See what I mean? How many specialists would it take to unite all the relevant information?

While accepting its positives, I am in no way a fan of the Bible. Think of JR's Barker information. Too many obvious man-made behaviour-control mechanisms; too many discrepancies which the later editors failed to catch.

Psalm 82 begins (verse 1), "God stands in the assembly of El (the Septuagint here says the assembly of gods), in the midst of the gods he renders judgment", indicating a plurality of gods, although it does not indicate that these gods were co-actors in creation. Philo had inferred from the expression, "Let us make man," of Genesis that God had used other beings as assistants in the creation of man, and he explains in this way why man is capable of vice as well as virtue, ascribing the origin of the latter to God, of the former to His helpers in the work of creation.[13]

How will our descendants rewrite old mythologies, create new ones, when, having accepted Allan's interpretations of the ultimate skill necessary for the proper understanding of words, we accept that the ancients had it right, all the way down the line?

Study any mythology, religion, philosophy...

Ancients knew one thing for sure: they were alive, they needed to protect that life, and they MUST reproduce.

For them, all we had was the Life Force and the programmed Need to Survive.

In the abstract, they created letter-sounds which they codified.

For the first of my in-bold words, they cut that down to the three-letter word God.

The second in-bold suggestion developed a number of letter-sounds -- Krishna, Tammuz, Buddha, Jesus, and so on; hundreds of letter-sound Saviours.

The rest, if I may be excused the cliché, is history.

Had to put the hyphen when I used in-bold because I know exactly how it would have been interpreted it if I said "my bold words


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1597 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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Picture of Reed N D Dark
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Interesting thought about not making things so complex. Is there nothing to be gained in that complexity? Was perhaps the garden of Eden simple and it “evolved” to something more complex? If man was indeed early in creation could the changes been from his tinkering


Can't see that. This observer prefers the concept of (given that we each create our deities in our own image)a Brahman-type fashioning infinite numbers of universes, each with its own slightly different set of "natural" laws, then sitting back to see what happens in each. Unlike ICB, though, this deity has no intention of interfering in any way.

Driving ourself crazy chasing up all these questions. Have long accepted there is simply far too much information on any subject for anyone to really get a firm grip on it.

Maybe one day we will have computer programs which can match up everything we know on each subject. Keep finding examples of individual scientific fields where scientists know next to nothing about highly relevant information contained in other fields.

Our curiosity drives us crazy.

Looking for something relevant to your post, we found this instead:

Why do spiders make great baseball players?
Because they know how to catch flies.

See what you think of the concept proposed here:

https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/...in-when-you-hear-pun
For the study, led by University of Windsor psychologist Lori Buchanan, a team of researchers presented participants with a pun on one side of their visual field, so that it would be processed first by one side of the brain — things viewed on the right go to the left hemisphere, and things on the left go to to the right. Among the puns they used was a variation on the spider joke above, along with this gem: “They replaced the baseball with an orange to add some zest to the game.” (“In honor of M. P. Bryden’s love for the game,” they wrote, referring to a psychologist who studied left-right differences, “our pun examples will be baseball-related when possible.”)
With each pun, Buchanan and her colleagues timed how long it took the participant to catch the wordplay on the screen. Overall, they found, puns in the right visual field sparked a quicker reaction time, suggesting that the left side of the brain takes the lead when it comes to sorting out puns from straight language. “The left hemisphere is the linguistic hemisphere, so it’s the one that processes most of the language aspects of the pun, with the right hemisphere kicking in a bit later,” Buchanan told Scientific American.
... “Humor emerges when the right hemisphere subsequently clues us in to the word’s other, unanticipated meaning, triggering what Buchanan calls a ‘surprise reinterpretation.’”

ICB has been giving deep ASC thought to words, and we are not even close to understanding how we use them. Beginning to think the 20 years Druids spent developing their phenomenal memories also included learning a deep understanding of words. So far, the best we 21st century types have to offer is the advertising psychologists working on our fears and sublimated urges to make sure we buy all their products.

I have no bother accepting that things which mean nothing to me are of great importance to many others, but check some of the products on our markets and ask why on earth any right-minded person would spend money on them.

One thing all reporters do is write their story then go away to do something unrelated. We then come back, and all too often change some of the words to make sure we get the right message across.

In our ASCs, we can do that time and again, replacing one word then replacing the replacement to minimise optional interpretations.

Great fun.


Unfortunately, I see the story of Eden more of a story than a history, so I can’t take what I posted too much farther, other than to say I think it is a simple story about the. Observance of our natural process of growing up, and it isn’t particularly complex at all. I can see it being valid without a god creating the universe at all.
 
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