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Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Abraham probably grappled with the same issue. Problem was and is, there are no words known amongst we finite beings sufficient in referencing the Infinite.


That would certainly have been the case in Abraham's time.

No longer.

quote:

Why? ... and we are told the Infinite does not change.


Who told us that and when?

...How do you think (Abraham) will cope?

quote:
By crossing his eyes and chuckling.


It will be weeks before Abraham would be capable of opening his mouth. While he most likely would be imagining himself in Heaven, it is nothing at all what he expects. He would be incapable of understanding one simple thing; imagine him watching someone talk to another's image on a phone.

quote:
He will ask you why you are still trying to build the tower of babble to reach the stars when you can't even see eternity in the face of the children playing at your feet.


I'd respond by telling him my daughters are university graduates, partners in running their own business, and not long ago we had a woman as Prime Minister of our country. Even better, I'd tell him we have had a Queen as ultimate ruler for the past 66 years and she is still going, having celebrated her 70th wedding anniversary with her subservient male consort.

Then I'd ask this patriarch what he can tell me about any of his own daughters.

quote:
He will tell you of planets and universes you have never seen nor even heard of. Emerald planets with ruby trees, golden rivers, and purple skies, with technological advances beyond your imagination. And those are just the elements we barely have words to describe. Universes larger and more grand than we are even capable dreaming of, never mind the words to describe them.


If you can find even a smidgen of a hint that Abraham understood stars, every astronomer in the world would be lining up at your door to buy you a round of drinks.

Not only would Abraham tell you stars are lights reflecting from Heaven, he also would insist Mars is a wandering star and we would have no chance of catching up with it.

quote:
Then he will explain to you that you are judging what you don't know by what little you do know.


I don't know a fraction of what we know today. He could not even start.

quote:
And then he will plainly and unequivocally tell you that the reason many people experience what they cannot fully put to words is because there are no, nor ever will be, words of the finite sufficient for the Infinite. It is meant to be a humbling experience, so be humble. He will tell you that when he spoke those words 4000 years ago, they were insufficient even then for his people, and 4000 years later, we still do not have the words, nor will there be words sufficient in another 4000 years.


Never say never.

What arguments will he be able to put up against mine?

quote:
He will likely also tell you that inventing new mythologies will do nothing more than divorce future generations from the ancient revelations even more than the current generation is divorced from that generation of 4000 years ago. The thread will have become so completely lost that we will be little more than babbling idiots in our own ears, still trying to experience the Infinite through finite words.


Actually, once he comes to terms with reality (provided he can) you will find he would agree with me completely. After all, his mythologies related only to what was then known. They said nothing at all about the mythologies of the hunter-gatherers, though I don't doubt there were fragments of those if we knew where to look for them. I reckon Gilgamesh's close friend was based on a Neanderthal.


Well, since you seem to believe that when one's human shell goes to the grave, their spirit and mind remain in limbo with no further knowledge and understanding than when they went in, you would think Abraham had a lot of catching up to do. I don't.

I firmly believe that the visionary encounters some few in this realm are privileged to, are but a taste of what we will encounter on the other side when the body dies and releases us from this material world. At which point I believe we join in a collective spirit/mind unencumbered by the limits of the material world. So in my mind, there is nothing we could teach Abraham. Nothing. He would know things he could not relay to us because we have yet to invent the words necessary for him to use in an attempt to do so.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6180 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Sometimes I think our dear Allan is so singularly focused on changing/updating the mythology that he really doesn't hear what we are saying.


Oh, you sweet dear heart. My prayers have been answered.

That is so close to my eternal refrain that it immediately brought floods of tears to my eyes.

Be it the religious mindset or the orthodox materialist-science mindset, that has been my cry for more decades than I care to remember.

If only they would hear what I am actually saying, instead of reframing it in their minds to suit their own Eagleman world model.

Even my saying what anyone believes is none of my business so long as it does not interfere with me and mine seems to disappear in the ether.


You say it is none of your business and yet for some 8+ years now (that I'm aware of) you have been harping on your perceived need for us to change the mythology on which our religious beliefs are based...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

I'm thinking you presume way too much in determining what was known, understood, and believed by our ancient predecessors.


I've been reading their mythology all my life, so do indeed have a fair idea of what they knew and what they did not know. No doubt at all that the tribe was paramount in their thinking. Wise Women of the Dreamtime is an excellent place to start.

quote:
And of course, since you insist that humanity invented the deities, you are predisposed to believing that the tribe was the all important entity and that the only purpose of the golden rule was its preservation.


Indeed. Preservation was all.

However, the Golden Rule was just one of many ways this was ensured. Given that 100 people would have been a fairly large tribe, people knew and understood one another far better than we can living in cities of millions. Everything everyone did and said was noted by everyone else. Ten Canoes illustrates this well.

quote:
For me, the Zodiac predates all of 'em and God predates the Zodiac. Since God is family, so to speak, in that God is Father and Mother of all, treating God's family members (not just one's own) as such would be a very godly thing to do for all of humanity, not just your tribe.


The Zodiac is what we call the patterns we see in the stars, so named because we put animal(zōion) names to those patterns. Of course, they can be seen only from our position in our galaxy and would be meaningless seen from elsewhere. Seems the pattern we are most familiar with originated with the Sumerians [http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/zodiac.htm] who, as you may remember, I rather suspect may have originated in the Indonesian region.

Over the aeons of time, of course, those galaxies and solar systems change shape, so what we now know as the Zodiac once was quite different and will change again.

https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/re.../constellations.html
If you waited long enough, the patterns of stars you would see in the sky would change completely. The Big Dipper is the easily recognizable part of a constellation called Ursa Major, or the Great Bear. The star at the end of the handle and the one at the far tip of the bowl happen to be moving in the opposite direction from the other stars in the Big Dipper. In the future, the handle will appear to be more bent, and the bowl will spread out. To me, the shape in 50,000 years will be more like that of a tadpole than a dipper.
Besides their motion, the appearances of stars change as they age. Take my favorite constellation Scorpius, for example. A couple of years ago, the middle of the three stars that make the head of the scorpion became brighter. The constellation now has a new look!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2393 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

I'm thinking you presume way too much in determining what was known, understood, and believed by our ancient predecessors.


I've been reading their mythology all my life, so do indeed have a fair idea of what they knew and what they did not know. No doubt at all that the tribe was paramount in their thinking. Wise Women of the Dreamtime is an excellent place to start.

quote:
And of course, since you insist that humanity invented the deities, you are predisposed to believing that the tribe was the all important entity and that the only purpose of the golden rule was its preservation.


Indeed. Preservation was all.

However, the Golden Rule was just one of many ways this was ensured. Given that 100 people would have been a fairly large tribe, people knew and understood one another far better than we can living in cities of millions. Everything everyone did and said was noted by everyone else. Ten Canoes illustrates this well.

quote:
For me, the Zodiac predates all of 'em and God predates the Zodiac. Since God is family, so to speak, in that God is Father and Mother of all, treating God's family members (not just one's own) as such would be a very godly thing to do for all of humanity, not just your tribe.


The Zodiac is what we call the patterns we see in the stars, so named because we put animal(zōion) names to those patterns. Of course, they can be seen only from our position in our galaxy and would be meaningless seen from elsewhere. Seems the pattern we are most familiar with originated with the Sumerians [http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/zodiac.htm] who, as you may remember, I rather suspect may have originated in the Indonesian region.

Over the aeons of time, of course, those galaxies and solar systems change shape, so what we now know as the Zodiac once was quite different and will change again.

https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/re.../constellations.html
If you waited long enough, the patterns of stars you would see in the sky would change completely. The Big Dipper is the easily recognizable part of a constellation called Ursa Major, or the Great Bear. The star at the end of the handle and the one at the far tip of the bowl happen to be moving in the opposite direction from the other stars in the Big Dipper. In the future, the handle will appear to be more bent, and the bowl will spread out. To me, the shape in 50,000 years will be more like that of a tadpole than a dipper.
Besides their motion, the appearances of stars change as they age. Take my favorite constellation Scorpius, for example. A couple of years ago, the middle of the three stars that make the head of the scorpion became brighter. The constellation now has a new look!


We both may as well get used to the idea that we are not going to see eye-to-eye on this issue. And arguing just for the exercise simply does not float my boat.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6180 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
In order to fit my understanding of the situation, I would 1st, change "Christianity" to churchianity, and 2nd, I would change "loyal Adversary" to read simply adversary, and thirdly, I would change "Judaism" to Original Biblical Theology. [QUOTE/]

I say "loyal" simply because most Christians see the Tanakh ha-satan as their own Christian Devil and need to start to accept it is not.

[QUOTE]I would do that because Christianity predates Judaism, and churchianity, and Original Biblical Theology predates Christianity.


I understand there is a long line of saviours from at least Horus and Krishna. However, given that christ simply means anointed one I have to ask what is the value in that? Queen Elizabeth, like countless others, was anointed at her coronation.

quote:
IOW, my sentence would read: God was sending the man Jesus to be tested by the adversary in accordance with original biblical theology, whereby he becomes The King, a Son of God, and Lord, in contradiction to churchianity's Trinitarian theology.


My reading of the Bible tells me Jesus was another totally human man seen as the promised Mashiach. and God was making sure he remembered who he was, a man, not God.

In line with that I can understand Jesus becoming king, but how does it mean he also, after surviving his angelic test, becomes Son of God, and Lord?

In a way, are we not all sons of God?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2393 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Well, since you seem to believe that when one's human shell goes to the grave, their spirit and mind remain in limbo with no further knowledge and understanding than when they went in, you would think Abraham had a lot of catching up to do. I don't.


I have no idea what happens after we die. For now, I'll be content if my bits and pieces provide food for native trees, birds, and insects.

quote:
I firmly believe that the visionary encounters some few in this realm are privileged to, are but a taste of what we will encounter on the other side when the body dies and releases us from this material world. At which point I believe we join in a collective spirit/mind unencumbered by the limits of the material world. So in my mind, there is nothing we could teach Abraham. Nothing. He would know things he could not relay to us because we have yet to invent the words necessary for him to use in an attempt to do so.


All the visionaries I know of have adequate amounts of entheogens permitting their brains to access others realms, other dimensions. When I follow that line I reckon Francis Cricks' panspermia hypothesis is as good a concept to follow as any.

https://blogs.scientificameric...directed-panspermia/
Crick and Orgel used the universality of the genetic code to support the theory of directed panspermia because if life had originated multiple times or evolved from a simpler genetic code one could expect living things to use a slew of genetic codes. Further, if there was only one code, Crick and Orgel reasoned that as organisms evolved they should evolve to use the same codons to code for different amino acids.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2393 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
“The mind can never be a servant of God and does not follow his laws. We can never know God through our intellect.”

I’m not sure that this is entirely true! I think our intellect may be a required component.


Our problem is we have allowed ancient, unknowing minds to shape how we think.

As a consequence we have lost our way.

How often have you seen modern commentators say we need to learn more about the Hindu religion, one which has so much in common with modern minds that quantum physicists are themselves looking there?


You’ll have to work really hard to convince me that what we read in the writings of ancient minds is in anyway related to what they actually meant when they wrote what they did. It reminds me of the “god” V-Ger who craved all kinds of data and could not be sasieted!
 
Posts: 8926 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Well, I did ask the question and therefore am not a Trinitarian. So I know you are not asking me to answer the question as a Trinitarian! My question was worded something like If Jesus is God-the-Son, why did he have to be [I]driven into the desert and tested, and tested for what purpose?[/I]
Their responses were varied, but essentially silly things like:...


You have my sympathy.

My point, of course, is that God sending the all-too-human Jesus to be tested by his loyal Adversary is straightforward Judaism.

Nothing at all to do with Christianity.


I assume you have considered that it is the Christ that god sends to everyone? The one that tells you who you are or gives you insight into who you are? Jesus may be an example of what a Christ is, or a myth about how one comes to see the Christ and become one with it.
 
Posts: 8926 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You say it is none of your business and yet for some 8+ years now (that I'm aware of) you have been harping on your perceived need for us to change the mythology on which our religious beliefs are based...


Three entirely separate issues here.

I've made it clear right from the start all those many years ago that I, like so many others, am here to learn, to exchange ideas, to develop my knowledge. It has worked wonders, as my knowledge and understanding have broadened greatly, especially when I have been matched with equally determined searchers. Our mob has been instrumental over the years, a magnificent effort given that not one of them agrees with where I am coming from, something we all recognised right from the start.

With the stock caveat, individual believers ARE none of my business, and that will remain intact.

Religious institutions, on the other hand, for me have denied human rights for thousands of years and must be exposed. One aspect of this is they have denied us the right to learn anything which might challenge their power. The use of entheogens is just one aspect of that. Another is the simple fact that billions of believers all over the world are sitting back doing and saying nothing because politicians of all hues claim to believe in the dominant religion in their country

As you know, I am predicting a world-wide revolution in a relatively short period. The reason for this is obvious to all those keeping a close watch on world affairs.

We have some 85 families, dominated by (in order of religious arrival) Jews, Christians, and Muslims, who control our world, a world in deep trouble because millions are dying through war, preventable starvation, disease and so on.

That top 1%, I saw this week, can spend more on a single dress than the average British worker can earn in four years.

We saw recently the sale of a da Vinci painting for $US450 million to Abu Dhabi's Department of Culture and Tourism. The New York Times reported last week that the man behind the purchase was a little-known Saudi prince named Bader bin Abdullah bin Farhan al-Saud, an associate of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/1...abu-dhabi/index.html
Saudi Arabia has since said the prince was acting as a middleman for the United Arab Emirates, a key ally in the region.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1...di-prince-bader.html
As it happens, Prince Bader is a friend and associate of the leader of the purge: the country’s 32-year-old crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

We are an evolved social/tribal animal and, despite what too many Christians and others brought up in Christian cultures insist, we are born genetically programmed to learn how to behave appropriately. The mess the world is in comes almost entirely from the fact we are not permitted to learn how to behave. In fact, the powers that be have ensured few indeed will be taught how to teach new-born infants the way it needs to be done.

Back to bed, as I woke far too early and could not resist this visit.

See ya..


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2393 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
You’ll have to work really hard to convince me that what we read in the writings of ancient minds is in anyway related to what they actually meant when they wrote what they did. It reminds me of the “god” V-Ger who craved all kinds of data and could not be sasieted!


I'd be the last person in the world to argue that.

Instead, as you have seen, one of my arguments is that we must start to understand just how words are used in mythology (as we must, too, when it comes to politics and advertising).

Thanks for the V-Ger tip. Will read up on that when I awaken again.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2393 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
... The one that tells you who you are or gives you insight into who you are? Jesus may be an example of what a Christ is, or a myth about how one comes to see the Christ and become one with it.


That is what entheogens are for :-)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2393 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
Chronic...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
... The one that tells you who you are or gives you insight into who you are? Jesus may be an example of what a Christ is, or a myth about how one comes to see the Christ and become one with it.


That is what entheogens are for :-)


You do know that that words origin is in the 1970s right? How is that going back to our outer of the language?
 
Posts: 8926 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
“The mind can never be a servant of God and does not follow his laws. We can never know God through our intellect.”

I’m not sure that this is entirely true! I think our intellect may be a required component.


Our problem is we have allowed ancient, unknowing minds to shape how we think.

As a consequence we have lost our way.

How often have you seen modern commentators say we need to learn more about the Hindu religion, one which has so much in common with modern minds that quantum physicists are themselves looking there?


Those ancient minds were great at things like hospitality/theoxeny driven cometary catechlysms. It's more like we modern people have lost the ability to understand history. Hindu/Brahman, Judaism/Ein Sof, Zoroastrianism/Zurvan, Stoicism/Divine Fire, Pluralistic Idealism/Central Monad, Modern Channeling/7th Density, and Physics/Planck scale are all the same thing. Now if only we could understand Herodotus for history better.
 
Posts: 986 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
Constant...
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
... The one that tells you who you are or gives you insight into who you are? Jesus may be an example of what a Christ is, or a myth about how one comes to see the Christ and become one with it.


That is what entheogens are for :-)


Entheogens are kind of an ego cleaning thing that makes you personality-wise more abstract if you are too "doubting Thomas" concrete. You still have to understand any information that you might get from a higher heaven/center/chakra ancestor or Akashic record. Your higher center would be like you in a possible distant future but its a timeless realm so our possible futures/past are all there always.
 
Posts: 986 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
I understand there is a long line of saviours from at least Horus and Krishna. However, given that christ simply means anointed one I have to ask what is the value in that? Queen Elizabeth, like countless others, was anointed at her coronation.


I'm going to admit that I'm becoming a little more than a little frustrated with this exchange because we have been over it numerous times. But I guess that since you are becoming such an old phart, we can go over it one more time.  Pout   :POUT:

I thought you read First Temple Theology by Margaret Barker. In it she lays out the theology of the First Temple, which the NT Christianity was a return to, whereby the 2 goats represented the Lord during the ritual of Atonement, and thereby becoming the Saviour (save them from sin). The sin was placed upon the head of one of the goats:

"The two goats were distinguished by lot: one was 'for Azazel' and the other was 'for the LORD'. ...The animal chosen was also appropriate; in Hebrew, the words 'goat' and 'demon' look identical (sa'yr). The high priest would have put the sins of Israel onto Azazel before it was taken to the desert. If the one goat chosen 'was' Azazel, then the other 'must have been' the LORD. The construction [of the wording] in the Hebrew is identical, and the sequence in the ritual confirms this. The goat offered as the sin offering does not in fact take away the sin. Instead this is somehow collected by the high priest, presumably as he performs the atonement rite, 'carried' and then 'transferred' from the high priest on to the head of the Azazel goat (Lev. 16:21). ... (M. Barker)

Christ/Messiah/Anointed. To act for God in the rituals, one had to be anointed. But since the Hebrews had divided up the functions of the Melchizedek King/Priest between the tribes of Judah/Levite, the High Priests were the ones making atonement in the Biblical rituals. It was the Levitical High Priest who wore the Name of the LORD on his forehead, but it was the Judaic King who SAT ON THE THRONE OF THE LORD. In the NT return to First Temple theology, Jesus takes us back to the Melchizedek Priest/King era by becoming both again (He is a priest forever in the Order of Melchizedek).

quote:
JR: IOW, my sentence would read: God was sending the man Jesus to be tested by the adversary in accordance with original biblical theology, whereby he becomes The King, a Son of God, and Lord, in contradiction to churchianity's Trinitarian theology.

Allan: My reading of the Bible tells me Jesus was another totally human man seen as the promised Mashiach. and God was making sure he remembered who he was, a man, not God.

In line with that I can understand Jesus becoming king, but how does it mean he also, after surviving his angelic test, becomes Son of God, and Lord?

In a way, are we not all sons of God?


Yes, we are all in a way, sons of God. But here we are talking about the King becoming Son of God and Lord via the former mystical rituals of the First Temple.

I have posted this before in a discussion with Gershom on the Amazon forum:

How is Jesus God?

Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High [Elyon] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God ['el]. 9For the LORD’s [Yahweh's] portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

-The “Sons of El” is found in the Qumran Hebrew, and the LXX also translates it as “sons of God”. The much later (and post 70 C.E.) MT text, however, replaced “Sons of God” with “Sons of Israel”.
The sons of God in the earlier texts are here described as the patron deities of the nations. Elyon the High God allocated the nations to the various sons of God, ONE of whom was Yahweh. Elyon gave Yahweh the nation of Israel. So we have a distinction between the Father (God) and the Son (Yahweh).

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God [El] came to present themselves before the LORD [Yahweh], and Satan came also among them.

-These are the same sons of God in Deuteronomy 32:8, Satan being one of them; presenting themselves before Yahweh, another of the sons of God. And again, the distinction between the Father (God) and the Son (Yahweh).

1 Chronicles 29:20-23 And David said to all the congregation, "Now bless the LORD your God." And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads , and worshipped the LORD, and the King. 21 And they sacrificed sacrifices unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings unto the LORD, on the morrow after that day, even a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel: 22 And did eat and drink before the LORD on that day with great gladness. And they made Solomon, the son of David, King the second time, and anointed him unto the LORD to be the chief governor, and Zadok to be priest. 23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as King instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

-So the Chronicler's account of Solomon's enthronement says that he sat on the throne of the LORD as King, and the people worshipped the LORD and the King and obeyed him. (1 Chron 29.20-23).

Isaiah 7:13 Then he said, "Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well? 14"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15"He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good, 16for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste."

-Isaiah's account states that the King was also called Immanuel (God with us).

Brenton Septuagint translation has: Isaiah 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; is it a little thing for you to contend with men? and how do ye contend against the Lord? 14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel (God with us). 15Butter and honey shall he eat, before he knows either to prefer evil or choose the good. 16For before the child shall know good or evil, he refuses evil, to choose the good; and the land shall be forsaken which thou art afraid of because of the two kings.

-This is speaking TO King Ahaz, of the House of David. Damascus and Samaria would be laid waste before a virgin's son, who will be called Immanuel, is old enough for bar mitzvah. Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Brenton Septuagint translation has:
Isaiah 9:6 "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger [Angel] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him."

-Still speaking of virgin's son, who is called Immanuel, Damascus and Samaria will come to their end before the son is bar mitzvahed, will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace; or all rolled up into 'Messenger/Angel of Great Counsel'.

Psalm 2:6 "Yet I have set my King Upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will tell of the decree: The Lord said unto me, Thou art my son; This day have I begotten thee."

-So God's King [Kings of Israel/Judah], whom God sets on Zion, is called a begotten son (son of God).

-To conclude, God has heavenly sons, and He has earthly begotten sons. We generally refer to His heavenly sons as Angels/Messengers. His earthly sons were the Kings of Israel/Judah - they represented Him and sat on His throne in Jerusalem/Zion. They too were called God for they were Immanuel (God with us) for the Israelites and Judahites.

After King Josiah, Judah/Judea never had another ANOINTED King from the lineage of Judah, of the House of David, to sit on the throne of God in Jerusalem...yet there were 4 more kings of the Kingdom of Judah: Josiah's son Shallum succeeded Josiah as king of Judah under the name Jehoahaz, Shallum was succeeded by his brother Eliakim under the name Jehoiakim, who was succeeded by his own son Jeconiah. Jeconiah was succeeded to the throne by Josiah's son Mattanyahu under the name Zedekiah. Zedekiah was the last king of Judah before the kingdom was conquered by Babylon and the people exiled, but none of them were Anointed; for Josiah had put away the Anointing Oil.

According to Talmud Yoma 52b: Josiah put away the Ark, Two Tablets of the Ten Commandments, Flask of Manna, Flask of Anointing Oil, Aaron's Rod and the chest which the Philistines sent as a gift when they returned the Ark.

When they returned and had rebuilt the Temple following the Babylonian captivity, there had been no Anointed sons of God (Davidic Kings), no Messiahs (Anointed Kings), no Immanuels (God with us) for the Kingdom of Judah, and the Holy of Holies had remained perfectly EMPTY during the entire Second Temple era.


So Jesus, by his lineage and anointing, became the King, thereby also becoming the Lord and Son of God as was the previous anointed Kings and Priests of Jerusalem, not to mention that Jesus/Yahoshua/Yahshua means Yahweh is Salvation.

But that is Christianity - NOT churchianity. And you should know by now that I draw a very sharp distinction. Poke!   :POKE:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6180 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You say it is none of your business and yet for some 8+ years now (that I'm aware of) you have been harping on your perceived need for us to change the mythology on which our religious beliefs are based...


Three entirely separate issues here.

I've made it clear right from the start all those many years ago that I, like so many others, am here to learn, to exchange ideas, to develop my knowledge. It has worked wonders, as my knowledge and understanding have broadened greatly, especially when I have been matched with equally determined searchers. Our mob has been instrumental over the years, a magnificent effort given that not one of them agrees with where I am coming from, something we all recognised right from the start.

With the stock caveat, individual believers ARE none of my business, and that will remain intact.

Religious institutions, on the other hand, for me have denied human rights for thousands of years and must be exposed. One aspect of this is they have denied us the right to learn anything which might challenge their power. The use of entheogens is just one aspect of that. Another is the simple fact that billions of believers all over the world are sitting back doing and saying nothing because politicians of all hues claim to believe in the dominant religion in their country

As you know, I am predicting a world-wide revolution in a relatively short period. The reason for this is obvious to all those keeping a close watch on world affairs.

We have some 85 families, dominated by (in order of religious arrival) Jews, Christians, and Muslims, who control our world, a world in deep trouble because millions are dying through war, preventable starvation, disease and so on.

That top 1%, I saw this week, can spend more on a single dress than the average British worker can earn in four years.

We saw recently the sale of a da Vinci painting for $US450 million to Abu Dhabi's Department of Culture and Tourism. The New York Times reported last week that the man behind the purchase was a little-known Saudi prince named Bader bin Abdullah bin Farhan al-Saud, an associate of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/1...abu-dhabi/index.html
Saudi Arabia has since said the prince was acting as a middleman for the United Arab Emirates, a key ally in the region.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1...di-prince-bader.html
As it happens, Prince Bader is a friend and associate of the leader of the purge: the country’s 32-year-old crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

We are an evolved social/tribal animal and, despite what too many Christians and others brought up in Christian cultures insist, we are born genetically programmed to learn how to behave appropriately. The mess the world is in comes almost entirely from the fact we are not permitted to learn how to behave. In fact, the powers that be have ensured few indeed will be taught how to teach new-born infants the way it needs to be done.

Back to bed, as I woke far too early and could not resist this visit.

See ya..


I'll have to get back to you on the rest of this stuff 'cause I'm not feeling very well since I was up sick all night.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6180 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
Picture of That JR Thang
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You say it is none of your business and yet for some 8+ years now (that I'm aware of) you have been harping on your perceived need for us to change the mythology on which our religious beliefs are based...


Three entirely separate issues here.

I've made it clear right from the start all those many years ago that I, like so many others, am here to learn, to exchange ideas, to develop my knowledge. It has worked wonders, as my knowledge and understanding have broadened greatly, especially when I have been matched with equally determined searchers. Our mob has been instrumental over the years, a magnificent effort given that not one of them agrees with where I am coming from, something we all recognised right from the start.

With the stock caveat, individual believers ARE none of my business, and that will remain intact.

Religious institutions, on the other hand, for me have denied human rights for thousands of years and must be exposed. One aspect of this is they have denied us the right to learn anything which might challenge their power. The use of entheogens is just one aspect of that. Another is the simple fact that billions of believers all over the world are sitting back doing and saying nothing because politicians of all hues claim to believe in the dominant religion in their country.


I thought we had determined several years back that the worldwide movement toward ecumenism would essentially take care of that... Patients dear, it's gonna take some time.

quote:
As you know, I am predicting a world-wide revolution in a relatively short period. The reason for this is obvious to all those keeping a close watch on world affairs.

We have some 85 families, dominated by (in order of religious arrival) Jews, Christians, and Muslims, who control our world, a world in deep trouble because millions are dying through war, preventable starvation, disease and so on.

That top 1%, I saw this week, can spend more on a single dress than the average British worker can earn in four years.

We saw recently the sale of a da Vinci painting for $US450 million to Abu Dhabi's Department of Culture and Tourism. The New York Times reported last week that the man behind the purchase was a little-known Saudi prince named Bader bin Abdullah bin Farhan al-Saud, an associate of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/1...abu-dhabi/index.html
Saudi Arabia has since said the prince was acting as a middleman for the United Arab Emirates, a key ally in the region.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1...di-prince-bader.html
As it happens, Prince Bader is a friend and associate of the leader of the purge: the country’s 32-year-old crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

We are an evolved social/tribal animal and, despite what too many Christians and others brought up in Christian cultures insist, we are born genetically programmed to learn how to behave appropriately. The mess the world is in comes almost entirely from the fact we are not permitted to learn how to behave. In fact, the powers that be have ensured few indeed will be taught how to teach new-born infants the way it needs to be done.

Back to bed, as I woke far too early and could not resist this visit.

See ya..


You may well be right about that revolution, but imho, it will have little or nothing to do with any specific religion, but everything to do with politics and economics. And once it reaches a flashpoint in one area, it will grow like wildfire. That's how I'm seeing it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6180 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
Picture of That JR Thang
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Well, since you seem to believe that when one's human shell goes to the grave, their spirit and mind remain in limbo with no further knowledge and understanding than when they went in, you would think Abraham had a lot of catching up to do. I don't.


I have no idea what happens after we die. For now, I'll be content if my bits and pieces provide food for native trees, birds, and insects.

quote:
I firmly believe that the visionary encounters some few in this realm are privileged to, are but a taste of what we will encounter on the other side when the body dies and releases us from this material world. At which point I believe we join in a collective spirit/mind unencumbered by the limits of the material world. So in my mind, there is nothing we could teach Abraham. Nothing. He would know things he could not relay to us because we have yet to invent the words necessary for him to use in an attempt to do so.


All the visionaries I know of have adequate amounts of entheogens permitting their brains to access others realms, other dimensions. When I follow that line I reckon Francis Cricks' panspermia hypothesis is as good a concept to follow as any.

https://blogs.scientificameric...directed-panspermia/
Crick and Orgel used the universality of the genetic code to support the theory of directed panspermia because if life had originated multiple times or evolved from a simpler genetic code one could expect living things to use a slew of genetic codes. Further, if there was only one code, Crick and Orgel reasoned that as organisms evolved they should evolve to use the same codons to code for different amino acids.


Well, I figure entheogens or not, if our minds/spirits can reach those other realms/dimensions while still in the body, we will have considerably more access to them when we are no longer subject to the body.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6180 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Chronic...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You say it is none of your business and yet for some 8+ years now (that I'm aware of) you have been harping on your perceived need for us to change the mythology on which our religious beliefs are based...


Three entirely separate issues here.

I've made it clear right from the start all those many years ago that I, like so many others, am here to learn, to exchange ideas, to develop my knowledge. It has worked wonders, as my knowledge and understanding have broadened greatly, especially when I have been matched with equally determined searchers. Our mob has been instrumental over the years, a magnificent effort given that not one of them agrees with where I am coming from, something we all recognised right from the start.

With the stock caveat, individual believers ARE none of my business, and that will remain intact.

Religious institutions, on the other hand, for me have denied human rights for thousands of years and must be exposed. One aspect of this is they have denied us the right to learn anything which might challenge their power. The use of entheogens is just one aspect of that. Another is the simple fact that billions of believers all over the world are sitting back doing and saying nothing because politicians of all hues claim to believe in the dominant religion in their country

As you know, I am predicting a world-wide revolution in a relatively short period. The reason for this is obvious to all those keeping a close watch on world affairs.

We have some 85 families, dominated by (in order of religious arrival) Jews, Christians, and Muslims, who control our world, a world in deep trouble because millions are dying through war, preventable starvation, disease and so on.

That top 1%, I saw this week, can spend more on a single dress than the average British worker can earn in four years.

We saw recently the sale of a da Vinci painting for $US450 million to Abu Dhabi's Department of Culture and Tourism. The New York Times reported last week that the man behind the purchase was a little-known Saudi prince named Bader bin Abdullah bin Farhan al-Saud, an associate of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/1...abu-dhabi/index.html
Saudi Arabia has since said the prince was acting as a middleman for the United Arab Emirates, a key ally in the region.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1...di-prince-bader.html
As it happens, Prince Bader is a friend and associate of the leader of the purge: the country’s 32-year-old crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

We are an evolved social/tribal animal and, despite what too many Christians and others brought up in Christian cultures insist, we are born genetically programmed to learn how to behave appropriately. The mess the world is in comes almost entirely from the fact we are not permitted to learn how to behave. In fact, the powers that be have ensured few indeed will be taught how to teach new-born infants the way it needs to be done.

Back to bed, as I woke far too early and could not resist this visit.

See ya..


I'll have to get back to you on the rest of this stuff 'cause I'm not feeling very well since I was up sick all night.


Be careful with flu like symptoms there are several types going around and one isn’t exactly a flu.
 
Posts: 8926 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
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Picture of Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
You do know that that words origin is in the 1970s right? How is that going back to our outer of the language?


I usually have little problem with typos, but that one has me beat.

Anyway, this neologism was created to get around the obvious problem -- most people reading hallucinogen and psychedelic automatically "see" party drugs.

Allegro failed to take that into account, and this allowed his opponents to minimise what he said or even dismiss it completely.

Later authors following up on The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross realised his mistake and created entheogen -- "generating the divine within".

No chance of avoiding exactly what these authors mean.

It is standard "word play". Very often, this can be a real problem for the reader. They are so used to one definition of a word or phrase that their brain has difficulty accepting any alternative definition.

As a reporter and check-sub editor I see that all the time.

On the other hand, of course, there are those who cynically take advantage of the reader's confusion to destroy the original author's intent.

Everyone knows this, takes it for granted.

However, in my far from humble opinion, it takes years of proof-reading and reporting before the mind automatically sees this disparity in word use.

Causes me heaps of trouble.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2393 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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