quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Abraham probably grappled with the same issue. Problem was and is, there are no words known amongst we finite beings sufficient in referencing the Infinite.

That would certainly have been the case in Abraham's time.

No longer.

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Why? ... and we are told the Infinite does not change.

Who told us that and when?

...How do you think (Abraham) will cope?

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By crossing his eyes and chuckling.

It will be weeks before Abraham would be capable of opening his mouth. While he most likely would be imagining himself in Heaven, it is nothing at all what he expects. He would be incapable of understanding one simple thing; imagine him watching someone talk to another's image on a phone.

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He will ask you why you are still trying to build the tower of babble to reach the stars when you can't even see eternity in the face of the children playing at your feet.

I'd respond by telling him my daughters are university graduates, partners in running their own business, and not long ago we had a woman as Prime Minister of our country. Even better, I'd tell him we have had a Queen as ultimate ruler for the past 66 years and she is still going, having celebrated her 70th wedding anniversary with her subservient male consort.

Then I'd ask this patriarch what he can tell me about any of his own daughters.

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He will tell you of planets and universes you have never seen nor even heard of. Emerald planets with ruby trees, golden rivers, and purple skies, with technological advances beyond your imagination. And those are just the elements we barely have words to describe. Universes larger and more grand than we are even capable dreaming of, never mind the words to describe them.

If you can find even a smidgen of a hint that Abraham understood stars, every astronomer in the world would be lining up at your door to buy you a round of drinks.

Not only would Abraham tell you stars are lights reflecting from Heaven, he also would insist Mars is a wandering star and we would have no chance of catching up with it.

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Then he will explain to you that you are judging what you don't know by what little you do know.

I don't know a fraction of what we know today. He could not even start.

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And then he will plainly and unequivocally tell you that the reason many people experience what they cannot fully put to words is because there are no, nor ever will be, words of the finite sufficient for the Infinite. It is meant to be a humbling experience, so be humble. He will tell you that when he spoke those words 4000 years ago, they were insufficient even then for his people, and 4000 years later, we still do not have the words, nor will there be words sufficient in another 4000 years.

Never say never.

What arguments will he be able to put up against mine?

quote:

He will likely also tell you that inventing new mythologies will do nothing more than divorce future generations from the ancient revelations even more than the current generation is divorced from that generation of 4000 years ago. The thread will have become so completely lost that we will be little more than babbling idiots in our own ears, still trying to experience the Infinite through finite words.

Actually, once he comes to terms with reality (provided he can) you will find he would agree with me completely. After all, his mythologies related only to what was then known. They said nothing at all about the mythologies of the hunter-gatherers, though I don't doubt there were fragments of those if we knew where to look for them. I reckon Gilgamesh's close friend was based on a Neanderthal.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Sometimes I think our dear Allan is so singularly focused on changing/updating the mythology that he really doesn't hear what we are saying.

Oh, you sweet dear heart. My prayers have been answered.

That is so close to my eternal refrain that it immediately brought floods of tears to my eyes.

Be it the religious mindset or the orthodox materialist-science mindset, that has been my cry for more decades than I care to remember.

If only they would hear what I am actually saying, instead of reframing it in their minds to suit their own Eagleman world model.

Even my saying what anyone believes is none of my business so long as it does not interfere with me and mine seems to disappear in the ether.

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:

I'm thinking you presume way too much in determining what was known, understood, and believed by our ancient predecessors.

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And of course, since you insist that humanity invented the deities, you are predisposed to believing that the tribe was the all important entity and that the only purpose of the golden rule was its preservation.

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For me, the Zodiac predates all of 'em and God predates the Zodiac. Since God is family, so to speak, in that God is Father and Mother of all, treating God's family members (not just one's own) as such would be a very godly thing to do for all of humanity, not just your tribe.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:

I'm thinking you presume way too much in determining what was known, understood, and believed by our ancient predecessors.

I've been reading their mythology all my life, so do indeed have a fair idea of what they knew and what they did not know. No doubt at all that the tribe was paramount in their thinking. Wise Women of the Dreamtime is an excellent place to start.

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And of course, since you insist that humanity invented the deities, you are predisposed to believing that the tribe was the all important entity and that the only purpose of the golden rule was its preservation.

Indeed. Preservation was all.

However, the Golden Rule was just one of many ways this was ensured. Given that 100 people would have been a fairly large tribe, people knew and understood one another far better than we can living in cities of millions. Everything everyone did and said was noted by everyone else. Ten Canoes illustrates this well.

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For me, the Zodiac predates all of 'em and God predates the Zodiac. Since God is family, so to speak, in that God is Father and Mother of all, treating God's family members (not just one's own) as such would be a very godly thing to do for all of humanity, not just your tribe.

The Zodiac is what we call the patterns we see in the stars, so named because we put animal(zōion) names to those patterns. Of course, they can be seen only from our position in our galaxy and would be meaningless seen from elsewhere. Seems the pattern we are most familiar with originated with the Sumerians [http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/zodiac.htm] who, as you may remember, I rather suspect may have originated in the Indonesian region.

Over the aeons of time, of course, those galaxies and solar systems change shape, so what we now know as the Zodiac once was quite different and will change again.

https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/re.../constellations.html
If you waited long enough, the patterns of stars you would see in the sky would change completely. The Big Dipper is the easily recognizable part of a constellation called Ursa Major, or the Great Bear. The star at the end of the handle and the one at the far tip of the bowl happen to be moving in the opposite direction from the other stars in the Big Dipper. In the future, the handle will appear to be more bent, and the bowl will spread out. To me, the shape in 50,000 years will be more like that of a tadpole than a dipper.
Besides their motion, the appearances of stars change as they age. Take my favorite constellation Scorpius, for example. A couple of years ago, the middle of the three stars that make the head of the scorpion became brighter. The constellation now has a new look!

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
In order to fit my understanding of the situation, I would 1st, change "Christianity" to churchianity, and 2nd, I would change "loyal Adversary" to read simply adversary, and thirdly, I would change "Judaism" to Original Biblical Theology. [QUOTE/]

I say "loyal" simply because most Christians see the Tanakh ha-satan as their own Christian Devil and need to start to accept it is not.

[QUOTE]I would do that because Christianity predates Judaism, and churchianity, and Original Biblical Theology predates Christianity.

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IOW, my sentence would read: God was sending the man Jesus to be tested by the adversary in accordance with original biblical theology, whereby he becomes The King, a Son of God, and Lord, in contradiction to churchianity's Trinitarian theology.

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Well, since you seem to believe that when one's human shell goes to the grave, their spirit and mind remain in limbo with no further knowledge and understanding than when they went in, you would think Abraham had a lot of catching up to do. I don't.

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I firmly believe that the visionary encounters some few in this realm are privileged to, are but a taste of what we will encounter on the other side when the body dies and releases us from this material world. At which point I believe we join in a collective spirit/mind unencumbered by the limits of the material world. So in my mind, there is nothing we could teach Abraham. Nothing. He would know things he could not relay to us because we have yet to invent the words necessary for him to use in an attempt to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
“The mind can never be a servant of God and does not follow his laws. We can never know God through our intellect.”

I’m not sure that this is entirely true! I think our intellect may be a required component.

Our problem is we have allowed ancient, unknowing minds to shape how we think.

As a consequence we have lost our way.

How often have you seen modern commentators say we need to learn more about the Hindu religion, one which has so much in common with modern minds that quantum physicists are themselves looking there?

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Well, I did ask the question and therefore am not a Trinitarian. So I know you are not asking me to answer the question as a Trinitarian! My question was worded something like If Jesus is God-the-Son, why did he have to be [I]driven into the desert and tested, and tested for what purpose?[/I]
Their responses were varied, but essentially silly things like:...

You have my sympathy.

My point, of course, is that God sending the all-too-human Jesus to be tested by his loyal Adversary is straightforward Judaism.

Nothing at all to do with Christianity.

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You say it is none of your business and yet for some 8+ years now (that I'm aware of) you have been harping on your perceived need for us to change the mythology on which our religious beliefs are based...

quote:

Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
You’ll have to work really hard to convince me that what we read in the writings of ancient minds is in anyway related to what they actually meant when they wrote what they did. It reminds me of the “god” V-Ger who craved all kinds of data and could not be sasieted!

quote:

Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
... The one that tells you who you are or gives you insight into who you are? Jesus may be an example of what a Christ is, or a myth about how one comes to see the Christ and become one with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
... The one that tells you who you are or gives you insight into who you are? Jesus may be an example of what a Christ is, or a myth about how one comes to see the Christ and become one with it.

That is what entheogens are for :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
“The mind can never be a servant of God and does not follow his laws. We can never know God through our intellect.”

I’m not sure that this is entirely true! I think our intellect may be a required component.

Our problem is we have allowed ancient, unknowing minds to shape how we think.

As a consequence we have lost our way.

How often have you seen modern commentators say we need to learn more about the Hindu religion, one which has so much in common with modern minds that quantum physicists are themselves looking there?

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
... The one that tells you who you are or gives you insight into who you are? Jesus may be an example of what a Christ is, or a myth about how one comes to see the Christ and become one with it.

That is what entheogens are for :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:
I understand there is a long line of saviours from at least Horus and Krishna. However, given that christ simply means anointed one I have to ask what is the value in that? Queen Elizabeth, like countless others, was anointed at her coronation.

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JR: IOW, my sentence would read: God was sending the man Jesus to be tested by the adversary in accordance with original biblical theology, whereby he becomes The King, a Son of God, and Lord, in contradiction to churchianity's Trinitarian theology.

Allan: My reading of the Bible tells me Jesus was another totally human man seen as the promised Mashiach. and God was making sure he remembered who he was, a man, not God.

In line with that I can understand Jesus becoming king, but how does it mean he also, after surviving his angelic test, becomes Son of God, and Lord?

In a way, are we not all sons of God?

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You say it is none of your business and yet for some 8+ years now (that I'm aware of) you have been harping on your perceived need for us to change the mythology on which our religious beliefs are based...

Three entirely separate issues here.

I've made it clear right from the start all those many years ago that I, like so many others, am here to learn, to exchange ideas, to develop my knowledge. It has worked wonders, as my knowledge and understanding have broadened greatly, especially when I have been matched with equally determined searchers. Our mob has been instrumental over the years, a magnificent effort given that not one of them agrees with where I am coming from, something we all recognised right from the start.

With the stock caveat, individual believers ARE none of my business, and that will remain intact.

Religious institutions, on the other hand, for me have denied human rights for thousands of years and must be exposed. One aspect of this is they have denied us the right to learn anything which might challenge their power. The use of entheogens is just one aspect of that. Another is the simple fact that billions of believers all over the world are sitting back doing and saying nothing because politicians of all hues claim to believe in the dominant religion in their country

As you know, I am predicting a world-wide revolution in a relatively short period. The reason for this is obvious to all those keeping a close watch on world affairs.

We have some 85 families, dominated by (in order of religious arrival) Jews, Christians, and Muslims, who control our world, a world in deep trouble because millions are dying through war, preventable starvation, disease and so on.

That top 1%, I saw this week, can spend more on a single dress than the average British worker can earn in four years.

We saw recently the sale of a da Vinci painting for $US450 million to Abu Dhabi's Department of Culture and Tourism. The New York Times reported last week that the man behind the purchase was a little-known Saudi prince named Bader bin Abdullah bin Farhan al-Saud, an associate of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/1...abu-dhabi/index.html
Saudi Arabia has since said the prince was acting as a middleman for the United Arab Emirates, a key ally in the region.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1...di-prince-bader.html
As it happens, Prince Bader is a friend and associate of the leader of the purge: the country’s 32-year-old crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

We are an evolved social/tribal animal and, despite what too many Christians and others brought up in Christian cultures insist, we are born genetically programmed to learn how to behave appropriately. The mess the world is in comes almost entirely from the fact we are not permitted to learn how to behave. In fact, the powers that be have ensured few indeed will be taught how to teach new-born infants the way it needs to be done.

Back to bed, as I woke far too early and could not resist this visit.

See ya..

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You say it is none of your business and yet for some 8+ years now (that I'm aware of) you have been harping on your perceived need for us to change the mythology on which our religious beliefs are based...

Three entirely separate issues here.

I've made it clear right from the start all those many years ago that I, like so many others, am here to learn, to exchange ideas, to develop my knowledge. It has worked wonders, as my knowledge and understanding have broadened greatly, especially when I have been matched with equally determined searchers. Our mob has been instrumental over the years, a magnificent effort given that not one of them agrees with where I am coming from, something we all recognised right from the start.

With the stock caveat, individual believers ARE none of my business, and that will remain intact.

Religious institutions, on the other hand, for me have denied human rights for thousands of years and must be exposed. One aspect of this is they have denied us the right to learn anything which might challenge their power. The use of entheogens is just one aspect of that. Another is the simple fact that billions of believers all over the world are sitting back doing and saying nothing because politicians of all hues claim to believe in the dominant religion in their country.

quote:

As you know, I am predicting a world-wide revolution in a relatively short period. The reason for this is obvious to all those keeping a close watch on world affairs.

We have some 85 families, dominated by (in order of religious arrival) Jews, Christians, and Muslims, who control our world, a world in deep trouble because millions are dying through war, preventable starvation, disease and so on.

That top 1%, I saw this week, can spend more on a single dress than the average British worker can earn in four years.

We saw recently the sale of a da Vinci painting for $US450 million to Abu Dhabi's Department of Culture and Tourism. The New York Times reported last week that the man behind the purchase was a little-known Saudi prince named Bader bin Abdullah bin Farhan al-Saud, an associate of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/1...abu-dhabi/index.html
Saudi Arabia has since said the prince was acting as a middleman for the United Arab Emirates, a key ally in the region.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1...di-prince-bader.html
As it happens, Prince Bader is a friend and associate of the leader of the purge: the country’s 32-year-old crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

We are an evolved social/tribal animal and, despite what too many Christians and others brought up in Christian cultures insist, we are born genetically programmed to learn how to behave appropriately. The mess the world is in comes almost entirely from the fact we are not permitted to learn how to behave. In fact, the powers that be have ensured few indeed will be taught how to teach new-born infants the way it needs to be done.

Back to bed, as I woke far too early and could not resist this visit.

See ya..

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Well, since you seem to believe that when one's human shell goes to the grave, their spirit and mind remain in limbo with no further knowledge and understanding than when they went in, you would think Abraham had a lot of catching up to do. I don't.

I have no idea what happens after we die. For now, I'll be content if my bits and pieces provide food for native trees, birds, and insects.

quote:

I firmly believe that the visionary encounters some few in this realm are privileged to, are but a taste of what we will encounter on the other side when the body dies and releases us from this material world. At which point I believe we join in a collective spirit/mind unencumbered by the limits of the material world. So in my mind, there is nothing we could teach Abraham. Nothing. He would know things he could not relay to us because we have yet to invent the words necessary for him to use in an attempt to do so.

All the visionaries I know of have adequate amounts of entheogens permitting their brains to access others realms, other dimensions. When I follow that line I reckon Francis Cricks' panspermia hypothesis is as good a concept to follow as any.

https://blogs.scientificameric...directed-panspermia/
Crick and Orgel used the universality of the genetic code to support the theory of directed panspermia because if life had originated multiple times or evolved from a simpler genetic code one could expect living things to use a slew of genetic codes. Further, if there was only one code, Crick and Orgel reasoned that as organisms evolved they should evolve to use the same codons to code for different amino acids.

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You say it is none of your business and yet for some 8+ years now (that I'm aware of) you have been harping on your perceived need for us to change the mythology on which our religious beliefs are based...

Three entirely separate issues here.

I've made it clear right from the start all those many years ago that I, like so many others, am here to learn, to exchange ideas, to develop my knowledge. It has worked wonders, as my knowledge and understanding have broadened greatly, especially when I have been matched with equally determined searchers. Our mob has been instrumental over the years, a magnificent effort given that not one of them agrees with where I am coming from, something we all recognised right from the start.

With the stock caveat, individual believers ARE none of my business, and that will remain intact.

Religious institutions, on the other hand, for me have denied human rights for thousands of years and must be exposed. One aspect of this is they have denied us the right to learn anything which might challenge their power. The use of entheogens is just one aspect of that. Another is the simple fact that billions of believers all over the world are sitting back doing and saying nothing because politicians of all hues claim to believe in the dominant religion in their country

As you know, I am predicting a world-wide revolution in a relatively short period. The reason for this is obvious to all those keeping a close watch on world affairs.

We have some 85 families, dominated by (in order of religious arrival) Jews, Christians, and Muslims, who control our world, a world in deep trouble because millions are dying through war, preventable starvation, disease and so on.

That top 1%, I saw this week, can spend more on a single dress than the average British worker can earn in four years.

We saw recently the sale of a da Vinci painting for $US450 million to Abu Dhabi's Department of Culture and Tourism. The New York Times reported last week that the man behind the purchase was a little-known Saudi prince named Bader bin Abdullah bin Farhan al-Saud, an associate of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/1...abu-dhabi/index.html
Saudi Arabia has since said the prince was acting as a middleman for the United Arab Emirates, a key ally in the region.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1...di-prince-bader.html
As it happens, Prince Bader is a friend and associate of the leader of the purge: the country’s 32-year-old crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

We are an evolved social/tribal animal and, despite what too many Christians and others brought up in Christian cultures insist, we are born genetically programmed to learn how to behave appropriately. The mess the world is in comes almost entirely from the fact we are not permitted to learn how to behave. In fact, the powers that be have ensured few indeed will be taught how to teach new-born infants the way it needs to be done.

Back to bed, as I woke far too early and could not resist this visit.

See ya..

I'll have to get back to you on the rest of this stuff 'cause I'm not feeling very well since I was up sick all night.

quote:

Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
You do know that that words origin is in the 1970s right? How is that going back to our outer of the language?