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Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Henry J:
Sign in front yard: "Solicitors welcome. Dog food is expensive."

Hmmm...


Having Barbecue, Dragons looking for guests...

Smile   :)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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Heard from Steve today. Poor baby has had the flu...

Says the weather is beautiful though and that he's gonna make himself a Chocolate Silk Pie tomorrow. Been a while since I've had a bite of one of those.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Why does it take practice to be an atheist?


Competition, mate. I'm horrendously outnumbered.

Pity none of them can tell me Cain had to be tattooed so no one else could kill him. Who,exactly?

Nor can they tell me where Cain met his wife, and which city he went to (or is it which city he built?)

Bit of an issue with Nimrod (Sargon the Great? You now, the bloke whose mother had to create a reed ark and sail him off in a handy river, where he was found and brought up by someone unrelated)), too. Creator of the first known empire, he was in control of at least four cities.

Not bad for the third generation of Noah.

Be interesting to run a survey of pew-warmers and see how many can tell me we why, after disobeying God and being punished for his sin, Adam was expelled from that garden in Eden.

Why, too, God confounded our language (which had to be either !Khoi or San) at Babel?


I thought Mrs exp explained all of those to you! I happen to think we are talking about a specific people and not the entire human race, but you knew that!

Started reading Spongs Fourth Gospel and the Shamanism book Bryan recommend. I think you might like the later, but the former sample, which is as far as I got, touches on what I learned from Paul Tillich.
 
Posts: 12868 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
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Losing internet shortly be back in a day or three!


Allan, thought you might,like this

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

I’ve downloaded a sample!
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Allan, thought you might,like this

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER


This book is provocative and asks some outstanding questions. One highlight is right at the beginning where Spong quotes his daughter as saying, "Dad, the questions the church keeps trying to answer, we don't even ask anymore."

As soon as I saw that review my automatic response was "great minds think alike".

Then I remembered: every time I said that with reference to myself my Dad's immediate response was "and fools seldom differ".

Nevertheless, it wasn't all that long ago when I said exactly that here; something along the lines of today's youngsters must find it almost impossible to relate to the Good Shepherd when the only shepherds they will have seen have been video images of men in helicopters and on motorbikes rounding up hundreds, if not thousands, of near-feral sheep.

I really struggle to work out how today's religious leaders either can't see or won't accept that the time of Adam, Abraham, Noah, Jesus, is an alien world in the 21st century.

My Confirmation Bias has been having a ball in the past few weeks.

Had never heard of Michael Moore when SBS advertised his programs. Wasn't really interested, however, since I was waiting for a preferred program, I turned it on, and have stuck with the series. Capitalism: A Love Story is on the 2008 financial meltdown, blamed by the right-wingers on Obama.

Moore's exposure of the corporate controllers who rule the USA (Goldman Sachs et al) fitted in nicely with what is happening with the Royal Commission on banking being conducted here.

These Royal Commissions are not permitted to lay charges against those called before them, however those appearing must answer all questions. No such thing as your Fifth Amendment.

One result of a recent Commission hearing into child abuse and molestation is that the former Catholic Primate of Australia, Cardinal George Pell, in now one of a number of high-ranking people facing serious charges in Court.
https://www.theguardian.com/au...hat-is-he-accused-of
Pell is essentially the treasurer of the Vatican and the Holy See in Rome, a high-ranking position that puts him third in charge after the pope.

The left-wing has been demanding a Royal Commission into our banking industry, against violent opposition from our Capitalist Federal Government.

The Government finally caved in, and all our top banks are in deep trouble. CEOs and other board members already have been forced to resign, and the only question now is how many of them will end up in jail for what could be very long terms.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/sto...ng-royal-commission/

For some reason, too, we have been seeing an increasing number of news reports on our education system of which, as you know, I am deeply critical. Some of the new approaches are completely in line with what we have been saying; the only problem is the number of proposed introductions which are treated with awe by the educators when, in fact, once again they have known about for more than a century.

Have to go, or I won't have anything to eat or drink tonight. I'll be back.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
I thought Mrs exp explained all of those to you! I happen to think we are talking about a specific people and not the entire human race, but you knew that!


The only issue I see here is that my perception of Churchianity is broader than yours.

Fair enough?

For me, with my interest in really ancient history, right from the beginning up until, probably, the Enlightenment, religion and politics were one and the same thing. Obviously there were cultural differences, but usually the political ruler also was the high priest, or political rulers and religious leaders worked hand-in-glove.

quote:

Started reading Spongs Fourth Gospel and the Shamanism book Bryan recommend. I think you might like the latter...


My reading has come to an almost complete standstill. Problem now is confirmation bias. Practically every relevant book, documentary, news program sends my CB screaming her head off or, at great cost to me, back on the roof knocking off more of my best reds.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
For me, with my interest in really ancient history, right from the beginning up until, probably, the Enlightenment, religion and politics were one and the same thing.

Yes any popular idea tends to get used by those more interested in power than truth/goodness. For me the thing to do is to go back to the original source like a Zoroaster or Socrates or Paul. This isn't overly easy to do since the original sources can have their work distorted over time.
 
Posts: 1149 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
Yes any popular idea tends to get used by those more interested in power than truth/goodness.


"Power" I know.
Care to define "truth", "goodness"?

quote:
For me the thing to do is to go back to the original source like a Zoroaster or Socrates or Paul. This isn't overly easy to do since the original sources can have their work distorted over time.


Problem with that, of course, is our overpowering Eurocentric egos will not permit us to go back to the real original sources. Nor will they permit us to look too hard at non-European sources, even when they are far better.

The best "reality" for us is utterly simple. Problem is, while the simplicity can be expressed in relatively few words, explaining and justifying that simplicity demands volumes.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
"Power" I know.
Care to define "truth", "goodness"?


"Truth" would be the structure of where we came from and where we are going science-wise (evolution/physics). "Goodness" would be whatever gets a group to the next step in the evoltion. For me this relates to this that I mentioned earlier:

quote:
Pantheons are kind of a distortion of the loka/seven heavens concept shared by Hinduism, Abrahamic religions, and modern channeling.


quote:
Problem with that, of course, is our overpowering Eurocentric egos will not permit us to go back to the real original sources. Nor will they permit us to look too hard at non-European sources, even when they are far better.

The best "reality" for us is utterly simple. Problem is, while the simplicity can be expressed in relatively few words, explaining and justifying that simplicity demands volumes.


The real original dreamtime/shamanistic source for me was simply channeling/visions and those can be redone when information gets lost/distorted. Zoroaster, Socrates, and Paul had their prophecies, divine signs, and visions to help them get back to more correct ideas.

Things though get redistorted by the Polycarps of the planet so you really can't stop paying attention to modern prophecies/divine signs/visions. These however are really just subtle hints about which modern researchers are on the right track for a given subject like the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis for Noah/Atlantis.

Dreamtime/Shamanistic journeys occur in a real realm with actual physics and really are a timeless home for our ancestors/descendents. It might be timeless but there are rules for information exchanges that even the power seekers playing in the fringes of that timeless realm have to obey.

In simple terms, the Wizard of Oz is supposedly a channeling inspired rendition of our human situation with respect to our evolution. Dorothy's three friends would represent the head, heart, and gut structure of the Chakras, Enneagram, Centers, Sephirot, Sri Yantra, Wheel of Life, etc.

We mostly need to work on ourselves (head, heart, and gut) as we follow the yellow brick road of our evolution and channel/get effected by those already higher (witches), some of whom are still power seekers. The Jungian idea that deep truths can be channeled into epic works at any time is quite true.

That head, heart, and gut are embedded in sacred geometry hints at a useful actual geometry too (for physics and personality theory).
 
Posts: 1149 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Allan, thought you might,like this

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER


This book is provocative and asks some outstanding questions. One highlight is right at the beginning where Spong quotes his daughter as saying, "Dad, the questions the church keeps trying to answer, we don't even ask anymore."

As soon as I saw that review my automatic response was "great minds think alike".

Then I remembered: every time I said that with reference to myself my Dad's immediate response was "and fools seldom differ".

Nevertheless, it wasn't all that long ago when I said exactly that here; something along the lines of today's youngsters must find it almost impossible to relate to the Good Shepherd when the only shepherds they will have seen have been video images of men in helicopters and on motorbikes rounding up hundreds, if not thousands, of near-feral sheep.

I really struggle to work out how today's religious leaders either can't see or won't accept that the time of Adam, Abraham, Noah, Jesus, is an alien world in the 21st century.

My Confirmation Bias has been having a ball in the past few weeks.

Had never heard of Michael Moore when SBS advertised his programs. Wasn't really interested, however, since I was waiting for a preferred program, I turned it on, and have stuck with the series. Capitalism: A Love Story is on the 2008 financial meltdown, blamed by the right-wingers on Obama.

Moore's exposure of the corporate controllers who rule the USA (Goldman Sachs et al) fitted in nicely with what is happening with the Royal Commission on banking being conducted here.

These Royal Commissions are not permitted to lay charges against those called before them, however those appearing must answer all questions. No such thing as your Fifth Amendment.

One result of a recent Commission hearing into child abuse and molestation is that the former Catholic Primate of Australia, Cardinal George Pell, in now one of a number of high-ranking people facing serious charges in Court.
https://www.theguardian.com/au...hat-is-he-accused-of
Pell is essentially the treasurer of the Vatican and the Holy See in Rome, a high-ranking position that puts him third in charge after the pope.

The left-wing has been demanding a Royal Commission into our banking industry, against violent opposition from our Capitalist Federal Government.

The Government finally caved in, and all our top banks are in deep trouble. CEOs and other board members already have been forced to resign, and the only question now is how many of them will end up in jail for what could be very long terms.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/sto...ng-royal-commission/

For some reason, too, we have been seeing an increasing number of news reports on our education system of which, as you know, I am deeply critical. Some of the new approaches are completely in line with what we have been saying; the only problem is the number of proposed introductions which are treated with awe by the educators when, in fact, once again they have known about for more than a century.

Have to go, or I won't have anything to eat or drink tonight. I'll be back.


When I was in jr high it was pointed out to me that experimental learning projects often succeed but fail when they become the standard. There is something to be said for the novelty of a project that just doesn’t seem to ever transfer well. But then I’ve always believed that different teacher should have different styles of learning, especially if they match the style to the students that are trying to learn. I had thought that kids might understand maths better if they could relate to it. No one understands what a grocer used to be or how nuts were mixed! Then a teacher in California did just that he changed the Brazil nuts and walnuts to drugs and other things kids could relate to. The parents were appalled that the school was teaching the kids how to be drug dealers!!!

As for not asking questions yet, how many times did many of us say to Cheri et al ... and then what? We’re way past what you are preaching and thing you are just at the beginning. What I haven’t figured out is if one can start without a physical Noah’s flood, for example, and still get to where one understands the meaning. Or better, skip a physical resurrection? Must one always start at the physical and move on from there?
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
I thought Mrs exp explained all of those to you! I happen to think we are talking about a specific people and not the entire human race, but you knew that!


The only issue I see here is that my perception of Churchianity is broader than yours.

Fair enough?

For me, with my interest in really ancient history, right from the beginning up until, probably, the Enlightenment, religion and politics were one and the same thing. Obviously there were cultural differences, but usually the political ruler also was the high priest, or political rulers and religious leaders worked hand-in-glove.

quote:

Started reading Spongs Fourth Gospel and the Shamanism book Bryan recommend. I think you might like the latter...


My reading has come to an almost complete standstill. Problem now is confirmation bias. Practically every relevant book, documentary, news program sends my CB screaming her head off or, at great cost to me, back on the roof knocking off more of my best reds.


I’ve always been intrigued with the customs and people of older cultures, and wondered how the mutating great apes might have been thought of by their peers. As for Churchianity being fairly narrow, I don’t see how it can not be. The idea of Church has all but lost its meaning of being a gathered community, and yes I still see a need for a tribe.
 
Posts: 12868 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
As for not asking questions yet, how many times did many of us say to Cheri et al ... and then what? We’re way past what you are preaching and thing you are just at the beginning. What I haven’t figured out is if one can start without a physical Noah’s flood, for example, and still get to where one understands the meaning. Or better, skip a physical resurrection? Must one always start at the physical and move on from there?

Yep, it's when they never leave the physical to graduate to the spiritual that things get stuck in neverland.

How many times have you listened to someone speak of 1 Colossians 1:27 "...to whom God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" and realized they were thinking Jesus in you rather than Christ in you?

I was amazed at how many people treat the word "Christ" as if it were Jesus' last name. They don't seem to understand that it means anointed; the same meaning as Messiah.

I realized just how screwed up their understanding was while listening to one of my brothers going on and on about "Jesus Christ, the Messiah" as if the two words had different meanings. Not only that, but while trying to straighten out his misunderstanding, I realized that he also presumed that Jesus was the only Christ/Messiah!

Once I started tracking it back through the OT and showing that all the biblical Hebrew Kings and Priests (not to mention Cyrus) were anointed, making them Christs/Messiahs, they somehow managed to get lost because it doesn't fit their indoctrination. They either cannot or refuse to wrap their heads around it.

Boggles the mind how they can so easily accept that Jesus is actually in them, but cannot accept that Christ is ('cause that would make you a Christ/Messiah (never mind that they even call themselves Christian))...even though several verses plainly state it:
1 John 2:20 "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know."
1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it (not HE) has taught you, you abide in Him."
2 Corinthians 1:21 "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,..."

So the kings and priests were anointed - and Peter, writing to ..."God's elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,... plainly calls them a royal priesthood:
1 Peter 2:9 "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

Just do not understand people not looking up the meaning of words unless it is for the purpose of remaining ignorant - because in their ignorance, they can assign any meaning they want to any word they choose in order to have it state whatever their pitifully small faith will accept.

Rant over Smile   :)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
As for not asking questions yet, how many times did many of us say to Cheri et al ... and then what? We’re way past what you are preaching and thing you are just at the beginning. What I haven’t figured out is if one can start without a physical Noah’s flood, for example, and still get to where one understands the meaning. Or better, skip a physical resurrection? Must one always start at the physical and move on from there?

Yep, it's when they never leave the physical to graduate to the spiritual that things get stuck in neverland.

How many times have you listened to someone speak of 1 Colossians 1:27 "...to whom God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" and realized they were thinking Jesus in you rather than Christ in you?

I was amazed at how many people treat the word "Christ" as if it were Jesus' last name. They don't seem to understand that it means anointed; the same meaning as Messiah.

I realized just how screwed up their understanding was while listening to one of my brothers going on and on about "Jesus Christ, the Messiah" as if the two words had different meanings. Not only that, but while trying to straighten out his misunderstanding, I realized that he also presumed that Jesus was the only Christ/Messiah!

Once I started tracking it back through the OT and showing that all the biblical Hebrew Kings and Priests (not to mention Cyrus) were anointed, making them Christs/Messiahs, they somehow managed to get lost because it doesn't fit their indoctrination. They either cannot or refuse to wrap their heads around it.

Boggles the mind how they can so easily accept that Jesus is actually in them, but cannot accept that Christ is ('cause that would make you a Christ/Messiah (never mind that they even call themselves Christian))...even though several verses plainly state it:
1 John 2:20 "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know."
1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it (not HE) has taught you, you abide in Him."
2 Corinthians 1:21 "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,..."

Just do not understand people not looking up the meaning of words unless it is for the purpose of remaining ignorant - because in their ignorance, they can assign any meaning they want to any word they choose in order to have it state whatever their pitifully small faith will accept.

Rant over Smile   :)


There are too many references that have been read as I am the “only” one to hope for too much change! I believe some of that is because the OT is read to say there is One coming, rather than there is one coming, as in always renewing. I was fortunate that I learned early that the Christ was what showed you who you are and depending on maturity was envisioned as Jesus or just a Light of knowledge etc. however, being fairly young isn’t when you want half of what you’ve learned to believe falling apart!
 
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
There are too many references that have been read as I am the “only” one to hope for too much change! I believe some of that is because the OT is read to say there is One coming, rather than there is one coming, as in always renewing. I was fortunate that I learned early that the Christ was what showed you who you are and depending on maturity was envisioned as Jesus or just a Light of knowledge etc. however, being fairly young isn’t when you want half of what you’ve learned to believe falling apart!

Yeah, but...WHEN one understands that the literal "coming one" was spoken of during a time when there were no "anointed" kings in Jerusalem, then it can start to make sense "if/when" they see the referenced quotes in the NT as ALSO applying, in context, to those of the time in which they were written - and NOT a "prophecy" specifically "about" Jesus. THAT is where Margaret Barker was the most help to me, because I needed to understand the major changes in the religion, along with the major changes in the political arena of the same time frame in order to make sense of it.

IOW, the religion had undergone a major overhaul - from spiritual (under which there was an anointed/Christ/Messiah) to legal (Moses Law) - during the time of Hezekiah/Josiah. THAT is why there was such longing amongst the "people of the land" for the RETURN of the spiritual because the legal was used as a means of "separation" rather than unification.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
There are too many references that have been read as I am the “only” one to hope for too much change! I believe some of that is because the OT is read to say there is One coming, rather than there is one coming, as in always renewing. I was fortunate that I learned early that the Christ was what showed you who you are and depending on maturity was envisioned as Jesus or just a Light of knowledge etc. however, being fairly young isn’t when you want half of what you’ve learned to believe falling apart!

Yeah, but...WHEN one understands that the literal "coming one" was spoken of during a time when there were no "anointed" kings in Jerusalem, then it can start to make sense "if/when" they see the referenced quotes in the NT as ALSO applying, in context, to those of the time in which they were written - and NOT a "prophecy" specifically "about" Jesus. THAT is where Margaret Barker was the most help to me, because I needed to understand the major changes in the religion, along with the major changes in the political arena of the same time frame in order to make sense of it.

IOW, the religion had undergone a major overhaul - from spiritual (under which there was an anointed/Christ/Messiah) to legal (Moses Law) - during the time of Hezekiah/Josiah. THAT is why there was such longing amongst the "people of the land" for the RETURN of the spiritual because the legal was used as a means of "separation" rather than unification.


Seems to me we deliberately separate the spiritual from the legal. And the current desire to return to the Spiritual isn’t at all what was being longed for! Or perhaps better stated, legalistic spiritualism seems to be one of the current goals. For the life of me I don’t see how anyone can think that even God could do that! Or should that be would do that?

To me legalism happens when things change faster than some can adapt or when there is a desire to have rules rather than experience and be fully human and involved in thinking and feeling.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:

"Truth" would be the structure of where we came from and where we are going science-wise (evolution/physics). "Goodness" would be whatever gets a group to the next step in the evolution. For me this relates to this that I mentioned earlier:

[QUOTE]Pantheons are kind of a distortion of the loka/seven heavens concept shared by Hinduism, Abrahamic religions, and modern channeling.


the structure of where we came from and where we are going science-wise (evolution/physics)

We don't understand the real significance of letter sounds i.e. science, evolution, physics, truth, channelling, seven heavens.

ALL words/letter-sounds come down to individual, culture-dictated, perceptions.

I could very easily idolise (in the spiritual sense of the letter-sound) synchronicity. You can have no idea of how often it impacts on me.

Was just t'other day I read that Marcel Griaule's Dogon informant told him a mythological story which the Frenchman said was "mathematically" impossible. The Dogon said, in effect, he was using mythological word-sounds, so mathematical word-sound meanings were irrelevant.

How much, then, of the Bible is mythological language and, as someone (you?) so rightly pointed out, circumstances change and the original meaning (especially a mythological one) is lost. Perhaps Jesus really is Amanita muscaria.

We come up with words to define things, then we forget all about how we did that. We use those words, perfectly sensibly, taking the meaning we gave them for granted.

Let's say I tell you I had an interesting experience with my dearest last night.

What image came to your mind?

Was it the fact that I was drinking a Shiraz in my Reidel, nearly tipped it over, and watched it settle back down. That is the most costly of my wine glasses (not a $130 one).

Bet it wasn't that perception.

We've seen how the posse uses words. Their definitions are, very often, totally opposed to how others define the words.

What happens, then, if we realise we need to redefine some concepts we take for granted? Or create neologisms to replace words which have connotations which could alter the hearer's perception. Think entheogen for hallucinogen; channeller for medium.

MTC

(That, in my perception of word use means More to Come Have another reply part-done.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:

"Truth" would be the structure of where we came from and where we are going science-wise (evolution/physics). "Goodness" would be whatever gets a group to the next step in the evolution. For me this relates to this that I mentioned earlier:

[QUOTE]Pantheons are kind of a distortion of the loka/seven heavens concept shared by Hinduism, Abrahamic religions, and modern channeling.


the structure of where we came from and where we are going science-wise (evolution/physics)

We don't understand the real significance of letter sounds i.e. science, evolution, physics, truth, channelling, seven heavens.

ALL words/letter-sounds come down to individual, culture-dictated, perceptions.

I could very easily idolise (in the spiritual sense of the letter-sound) synchronicity. You can have no idea of how often it impacts on me.

Was just t'other day I read that Marcel Griaule's Dogon informant told him a mythological story which the Frenchman said was "mathematically" impossible. The Dogon said, in effect, he was using mythological word-sounds, so mathematical word-sound meanings were irrelevant.

How much, then, of the Bible is mythological language and, as someone (you?) so rightly pointed out, circumstances change and the original meaning (especially a mythological one) is lost. Perhaps Jesus really is Amanita muscaria.

We come up with words to define things, then we forget all about how we did that. We use those words, perfectly sensibly, taking the meaning we gave them for granted.

Let's say I tell you I had an interesting experience with my dearest last night.

What image came to your mind?

Was it the fact that I was drinking a Shiraz in my Reidel, nearly tipped it over, and watched it settle back down. That is the most costly of my wine glasses (not a $130 one).

Bet it wasn't that perception.

We've seen how the posse uses words. Their definitions are, very often, totally opposed to how others define the words.

What happens, then, if we realise we need to redefine some concepts we take for granted? Or create neologisms to replace words which have connotations which could alter the hearer's perception. Think entheogen for hallucinogen; channeller for medium.

MTC

(That, in my perception of word use means More to Come Have another reply part-done.


For what it is worth, because I know dearest is used in reference to cost that are expensive, it did occur to me you were talking cost but not what. Admittedly the first thing that comes to mind is affection when taken in US terms.
 
Posts: 12868 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
There are too many references that have been read as I am the “only” one to hope for too much change! I believe some of that is because the OT is read to say there is One coming, rather than there is one coming, as in always renewing. I was fortunate that I learned early that the Christ was what showed you who you are and depending on maturity was envisioned as Jesus or just a Light of knowledge etc. however, being fairly young isn’t when you want half of what you’ve learned to believe falling apart!

Yeah, but...WHEN one understands that the literal "coming one" was spoken of during a time when there were no "anointed" kings in Jerusalem, then it can start to make sense "if/when" they see the referenced quotes in the NT as ALSO applying, in context, to those of the time in which they were written - and NOT a "prophecy" specifically "about" Jesus. THAT is where Margaret Barker was the most help to me, because I needed to understand the major changes in the religion, along with the major changes in the political arena of the same time frame in order to make sense of it.

IOW, the religion had undergone a major overhaul - from spiritual (under which there was an anointed/Christ/Messiah) to legal (Moses Law) - during the time of Hezekiah/Josiah. THAT is why there was such longing amongst the "people of the land" for the RETURN of the spiritual because the legal was used as a means of "separation" rather than unification.


Seems to me we deliberately separate the spiritual from the legal. And the current desire to return to the Spiritual isn’t at all what was being longed for! Or perhaps better stated, legalistic spiritualism seems to be one of the current goals. For the life of me I don’t see how anyone can think that even God could do that! Or should that be would do that?

To me legalism happens when things change faster than some can adapt or when there is a desire to have rules rather than experience and be fully human and involved in thinking and feeling.

"We" don't have to separate the spiritual from the legal because they "are" by their very nature separate!
Spiritual: relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
Legal: of, based on, or concerned with the law.

My experience with fundies, both on forums and within my family, legalism is a way to hide from spiritual responsibility. It removes them from actually participating in spiritual matters and focuses purely on "theology" or "nit noid" rules; something they can judge others by rather than focusing on their own spiritual growth.

From what I've been able to gather, legalism is a "control" mechanism. And in the particular biblical instance with Hezekiah/Josiah, the control that was being sought was specifically that of identity/separation from surrounding peoples. But it also gave the priests a much greater role in control of the masses - including the King...which Barker points out. The power of the king was greatly reduced following the Hezekiah/Josiah period.

In the instance of the fundies (especially the dispensationalists), the point seems to be to restrict "true Christianity" to a very narrow theological view and thereby boost the adherent's ability to "judge" others as "less than" just as the pharisees did.

Following the return of the Babylonian exiles, the priestly class took full advantage of the lack of a king in Judea and made themselves ultra rich and ultra important in ruling of the nation, essentially taking the place of king - especially starting with the Hasmonean Dynasty, and most especially with John Hyrcanus who formed a military (something only a king would do) and conquered 3 surrounding nations and annexed Edom. His son, Aristobulus I, was the first to actually declare himself King of Judea.

The fundies, especially the dispensationalists, have been trying to get "one of their own" in the White House for some time now. They find it desirable for the same reasons as the Hasmonean Dynasty did: control.

Then, came the pharisees who took "the law" to a whole new level. More people were disenfranchised by the pharisee's treatment of the law than at any other time during the Hebrew nation(s).

If the dispensationalists/fundies should ever find themselves in power, I expect that isolation and disenfranchisement would be the most widespread outcome.

I think it was David who said it so clearly: "There is nothing new under the sun."


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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Originally posted by Allan:
Was just t'other day I read that Marcel Griaule's Dogon informant told him a mythological story which the Frenchman said was "mathematically" impossible. The Dogon said, in effect, he was using mythological word-sounds, so mathematical word-sound meanings were irrelevant.

How much, then, of the Bible is mythological language and, as someone (you?) so rightly pointed out, circumstances change and the original meaning (especially a mythological one) is lost. Perhaps Jesus really is Amanita muscaria...

What happens, then, if we realise we need to redefine some concepts we take for granted? Or create neologisms to replace words which have connotations which could alter the hearer's perception. Think entheogen for hallucinogen; channeller for medium.


Well if Jesus is entheogen/channeling then one can rediscover Jesus in the present even if he does get lost. Paul's vision though could be of a historical guy even if we have to channel to get back to who that guy was.

I had very intense 9-11 dreams before 9-11. Before 9-11, I originally took it to just be Jungian quaternity symbolism (three similar events then a 4th with a fighting back difference). The first and second were even twin-like and the third was even a closed shape completion (pentagon though in my dream it was a circle). Dreams/myths/history/sacred geometry can all have a Jungian math to them. Pauli and Jung related quaternities to math quaternions.

Getting the general public to take the dreamtime landscape seriously is not an easy thing to do even if you try to normalize it with different vocabulary.
 
Posts: 1149 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
Devoted...
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Originally posted by bluelamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Was just t'other day I read that Marcel Griaule's Dogon informant told him a mythological story which the Frenchman said was "mathematically" impossible. The Dogon said, in effect, he was using mythological word-sounds, so mathematical word-sound meanings were irrelevant.

How much, then, of the Bible is mythological language and, as someone (you?) so rightly pointed out, circumstances change and the original meaning (especially a mythological one) is lost. Perhaps Jesus really is Amanita muscaria...

What happens, then, if we realise we need to redefine some concepts we take for granted? Or create neologisms to replace words which have connotations which could alter the hearer's perception. Think entheogen for hallucinogen; channeller for medium.


Well if Jesus is entheogen/channeling then one can rediscover Jesus in the present even if he does get lost. Paul's vision though could be of a historical guy even if we have to channel to get back to who that guy was.

My impression is that there must have been a literal Jesus somewhere in there. The new religious movement happened all too quickly for it to have been otherwise, IMHO, especially since there was both a Jewish and Gentile component to it.

But that is not to say that all the Gospel stories were literally true since each Gospel story is actually quite different. But it does seem to me that they are speaking of a real person, while at the same time wrapping him in mythical language.

The real difference that I see between the Jesus teachings and the other pharisaic teachings is spiritual/legalistic. And in that sense Jesus' teachings were a return to the pre-Hezekiah/Josiah reformation; to a pre-Moses' Law religion.


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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