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Devoted...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
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quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:

Well, Herbert (or his son) has a book in the Dune series where that does happen. The computers lose that battle, however are still there many books later. IIRC the series closes with the impending merger of human and robotic minds.

Asimov is the world expert on sci-fi robots, and one of his stories ends with the same merger.

Those who know Asimov know he wrote two major series, The Caves of Steel and Foundation. He then merged the two. R. Daneel Olivaw was there from start to finish.

Asimov explored that human-computer mind in a way neither Hawking nor that program speaker could imagine.


Humanity's technological empire could though crumble catastrophically before we ever get there.

quote:
Imagine, then, that Brahman concept I envy. A Gaia multiverse and a creating entity capable of experiencing that exists , in every reality.


and we are it on the way back to being it

quote:
Reading anything in isolation, especially politics and religion, means we are in the control of the Alphas, and they have had aeons of experience in creating effective mind-controlling propaganda...

Before one begins to study anything, one must first get deep inside all the authors to determine who is decent and who is not.

The rules applying to evangelical ministers apply to all religious writers, no matter what our first impression may be.


Yeah alternative internet news sources are not loved by the mainstream press which kind of hints that there are things out there that the alphas don't want you to see.



Speaking of alphas I had one right-winger claim that the U.S. military would never follow an illegal order because they are all Alpha males.

I pointed out the last thing the military wants is Alpha males since they need troops that can be indoctrinated and follow orders.


And the need for troops to cooperate makes it difficult to train to not give up valuable information. You end up with loners!
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
bluelamp: do you see IRMs in this?

quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
When I was in jr high it was pointed out to me that experimental learning projects often succeed but fail when they become the standard. There is something to be said for the novelty of a project that just doesn’t seem to ever transfer well. But then I’ve always believed that different teacher should have different styles of learning, especially if they match the style to the students that are trying to learn. I had thought that kids might understand maths better if they could relate to it. No one understands what a grocer used to be or how nuts were mixed! Then a teacher in California did just that he changed the Brazil nuts and walnuts to drugs and other things kids could relate to. The parents were appalled that the school was teaching the kids how to be drug dealers!!!
As for not asking questions yet, how many times did many of us say to Cheri et al ... and then what? We’re way past what you are preaching and thing you are just at the beginning. What I haven’t figured out is if one can start without a physical Noah’s flood, for example, and still get to where one understands the meaning. Or better, skip a physical resurrection? Must one always start at the physical and move on from there?


Was going to answer those separately, then realised they have the same core.

We’re way past what you are preaching and thing you are just at the beginning.

Actually, no. We stick with the conventional, the orthodox, no matter what the cost.

I have said repeatedly that virtually all posters do not go back to the beginning.

Have yet to see any religious poster go back more than 4000 years, and by that time we all had well and truly lost our way.

The key is individual perception, and neuropsychology had just left the starting line on that.

I have yet to see anyone, in everything I have read, seen, or listen to, ask why we find it necessary to believe in deities at all.

As for education:

I do not know enough about Steiner or other systems, but I do know the Montessori system, as a base at least, is so far ahead of orthodox education systems they are a sick joke. Remember, I have spent some 17 years as a volunteer tutor in three high schools and a college, working with all types from mentally handicapped to some top students..

Bloody hell, we didn't even have sense enough to drop the QWERTY keyboard.

We have all the information we need to get back in the path we lost some 12,000 years ago.

Whether anyone likes it or not, understanding entheogens is an essential place to start.

As I said to bluelamp, it has now become essential to look deeply at words, how and why we create them, what connotations they have which control the way the listener/reader interprets them.

We have more than enough established evidence to make it impossible to understand any religion without a full understanding of what we experience in those altered states of consciousness.

Huxley's Doors of Perception is as good a place to start for anyone determined to find what, if any, truth there is in what I am saying.


When speaking of Christianity, the beginning is admittedly not the beginning, but it is often the beginning of a belief. As one matures they find themself studying early “acceptable” documents and then exploring similarities of even earlier belief systems. Since we don’t know where the beginning of knowledge is it is difficult to know when we are truly at the beginning.

We’ve also suffered from systems that claim to be more advanced that in fact are not, as well as heavens gate which seemed to be a bit unhealthy!
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
The Dead Sea Scrolls show us there was yet another major breach in Judaism.

Still reckon the Qumran sect was a breakaway from the ruling Sadducee class. Paul most likely was one of their hit men, as Assyria would hardly be likely to permit any Jew to attack their citizens, even Jewish ones.

Has also been suggested that John the Baptist and Jesus were, for a time at least, members of Qumran.

Still am convinced the Bible will never be understood unless and until the politics of the time are taken fully into account. Excluding politics is fatal to understanding.

Think US Presidents since at least Reagan.

Think infidel Islam today.

Think Versailles immediately before the Revolution, when priests and princes shared the same life.

All humans are either Alphas or followers, regardless of the culture or the era.

Alphas will rules, and for most it matters not how they rule.

Simplicity itself.

Frankly, I have considerable difficulty thinking of "Qumran hit men" amongst a group of men who required of themselves supreme piety and were poised for the "Great Judgement Day" in which they would fight along with God. This New Sect was no real threat to them as most wouldn't have fit into the sect to start with.

IF there were in fact hit men, seems to me they would more likely have been from the Sadducee Temple sect rather than Qumran. It was the Sadducees who had the most to lose to this "New Way" since their livelihood rested squarely on the tithe and price of sacrifices; something for which this New Way had no requirement. In fact, this New Way had no requirement for the Temple priests at all...


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Doesn't surprise me at all that much of Christianity can be traced back to some of the more ancient mystical religions though, since that seems to be the entire point; going back to a more mystical/spiritual religion, and far away from a legalistic one.


In fact, all the cultures Judaism borrowed from already were united in that the Alphas, religious or political, worked hand-in-glove.

How many Pharaohs, kings, emperors (including in meso- and South America), also were high priests?

China, too:

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/cosmos/irc/emperor.htm
Participants in the official rites were the emperor, his bureaucracy, and other degree-holders. There was no independent priesthood, for worship -- guided by bureaucrats according to government regulations -- was considered an official duty.
The State Cult gave powerful ritual emphasis to key elements of state ideology and to the basic political organization of the state.
The prayers and rituals that accompanied the many duties of the emperor were not designed by any one emperor. Rather, classic ritual texts were debated and revised under every dynasty. It was incumbent upon a sitting emperor to perform these rituals in order to demonstrate that he was the rightful emperor -- to validate his own position within the system, and at the same time, to validate the system itself. The emperor needed to express his commitment to the ideas that were behind these rituals, and so it was that every Chinese emperor worshipped Heaven and Earth at the Temple of Heaven and also at the sacred Mount Tai.

Yep, and Melchizedek - long before Abraham - King and Priest of Salem (ancient Jerusalem), to which Jesus is likened as "A priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
The Dead Sea Scrolls show us there was yet another major breach in Judaism.

Still reckon the Qumran sect was a breakaway from the ruling Sadducee class. Paul most likely was one of their hit men, as Assyria would hardly be likely to permit any Jew to attack their citizens, even Jewish ones.

Has also been suggested that John the Baptist and Jesus were, for a time at least, members of Qumran.


Paul was a Herodian so he had some backing via Rome in his initial persecution of revolutionaries like the James gang (James, Cephas, John).

Yep, and the Sadducees were more closely aligned with Rome than any of the other sects - even taking on Greek rather than Hebrew names.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by bryan:
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Heard from Steve today. Poor baby has had the flu...

Says the weather is beautiful though and that he's gonna make himself a Chocolate Silk Pie tomorrow. Been a while since I've had a bite of one of those.


Speaking of which, Mrs Exp?

Sorry Bryan, haven't heard so much as a peep from Mary Jean. But I'm gonna keep trying...


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
As for not asking questions yet, how many times did many of us say to Cheri et al ... and then what? We’re way past what you are preaching and thing you are just at the beginning. What I haven’t figured out is if one can start without a physical Noah’s flood, for example, and still get to where one understands the meaning. Or better, skip a physical resurrection? Must one always start at the physical and move on from there?

Yep, it's when they never leave the physical to graduate to the spiritual that things get stuck in neverland.

How many times have you listened to someone speak of 1 Colossians 1:27 "...to whom God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" and realized they were thinking Jesus in you rather than Christ in you?

I was amazed at how many people treat the word "Christ" as if it were Jesus' last name. They don't seem to understand that it means anointed; the same meaning as Messiah.

I realized just how screwed up their understanding was while listening to one of my brothers going on and on about "Jesus Christ, the Messiah" as if the two words had different meanings. Not only that, but while trying to straighten out his misunderstanding, I realized that he also presumed that Jesus was the only Christ/Messiah!

Once I started tracking it back through the OT and showing that all the biblical Hebrew Kings and Priests (not to mention Cyrus) were anointed, making them Christs/Messiahs, they somehow managed to get lost because it doesn't fit their indoctrination. They either cannot or refuse to wrap their heads around it.

Boggles the mind how they can so easily accept that Jesus is actually in them, but cannot accept that Christ is ('cause that would make you a Christ/Messiah (never mind that they even call themselves Christian))...even though several verses plainly state it:
1 John 2:20 "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know."
1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it (not HE) has taught you, you abide in Him."
2 Corinthians 1:21 "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,..."

So the kings and priests were anointed - and Peter, writing to ..."God's elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,... plainly calls them a royal priesthood:
1 Peter 2:9 "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

Just do not understand people not looking up the meaning of words unless it is for the purpose of remaining ignorant - because in their ignorance, they can assign any meaning they want to any word they choose in order to have it state whatever their pitifully small faith will accept.

Rant over Smile   :)


Been there/done that enough with Vicki pointing out she claims to be Christ. Among the other usual problems like following Jesus command to be Perfect.

Boggles the mind, I'm tellin' ya!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
My impression is that there must have been a literal Jesus somewhere in there. The new religious movement happened all too quickly for it to have been otherwise, IMHO, especially since there was both a Jewish and Gentile component to it.

But that is not to say that all the Gospel stories were literally true since each Gospel story is actually quite different. But it does seem to me that they are speaking of a real person, while at the same time wrapping him in mythical language.

The real difference that I see between the Jesus teachings and the other pharisaic teachings is spiritual/legalistic. And in that sense Jesus' teachings were a return to the pre-Hezekiah/Josiah reformation; to a pre-Moses' Law religion.


Paul certainly seemed to think he had the same vision of a martyred leader as the James gang (with Cephas and John) and Dan Unterbrink has a view for who that could be historically:

https://thethreemessiahs.wordp...s-the-galilean-6-10/

quote:
It is possible that these missing years from Josephus could have been the result of pious editing. The actual crucifixion of Judas the Galilean may have been deleted. Note that Josephus detailed the deaths of Judas’ three sons, James, Simon, and Menahem and his grandson, Eleazar. With each of these occasions, Josephus referred back to Judas the Galilean. It is hard to believe that Josephus omitted the circumstances behind the death of Judas. So it is very possible that the writings of Josephus were edited to remove some interesting details of Judas’ life and his eventual crucifixion.


But as our Judaswasjames liked to mention, Paul may not have overly stayed a James gang fan and even began to think his vision was actually of a gentile on a tropaeum:

https://www.amazon.com/Judas-T...ewerType=all_reviews

quote:
Then fall the Gospel!
Byjudaswasjameson April 1, 2014
Format: Kindle Edition|Verified Purchase
Wow, this guy is smart. I could review a lot of his stuff line by line, but it is best for everyone to see for themselves this fine work. He does a better Mythicist case than the case of the Caesar connection, which in itself is pretty good, as well. Carrier, Doherty, and the rest have a new contender for the best of the Mythicist proponents. Really sharp guy, with amazing command and logic. Well worth the three or four bucks on Kindle. I would pay twice that.


The Gospels would then kind of redo a Julius Caesar passion play with a generic Jewish martyr in place of Caesar. I suspect Paul was OK with the play as a Gentile/Jew morph but it was not supposed to be literal history except in a loose historical fiction sense for Julius Caesar and Judas of Galilee. Carrier has mentioned that Luke/Acts could be historical fiction.

Paul taught in former Caesarean colonies and likely took over Hellenistic churches descended from Divus Julius churches. Caesar himself was into the Stoic Posidonius and Caesar's army was considered the source of Mithraism (kind of a folk religion version of Stoicism). Not surprising that Paul would have Hellenistic aspects as well as Jewish ones. Caesar was very much a messiah for the Jews in the Cyrus the Great-like sense.

These ideas trace back through Socrates and Zoroaster, then back Allan-like to Shamanism if you go back far enough.

Dizzying sometimes how many theories there are about who Jesus might actually have been! And then there is the theory that he didn't exist at all...

There are several biblical verses which state to "call upon the name" or "believe in/on the name" of Jesus, so the "name" Jesus/Joshua/Yahoshua seems to be important. When translated, it means "YHWH/GOD is salvation." Regardless of his actual name, Yahoshua seems to be unanimously agreed to in the NT.

Doesn't surprise me at all that much of Christianity can be traced back to some of the more ancient mystical religions though, since that seems to be the entire point; going back to a more mystical/spiritual religion, and far away from a legalistic one.


I hope he's still doing ok...

Yeah, me too, but haven't heard a peep from judaswasjames in quite some time.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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I have opened a new Pub & Coffee Shop thread since this one is getting so long. Let's move there at the end of page 72 please?


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Constant...
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
bluelamp, I'm tied up right now (sauv blanc with flathead).
Did you see my edit on the top of the previous post?
quote:
bluelamp: do you see IRMs in this?



What's an IRM?
 
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Frankly, I have considerable difficulty thinking of "Qumran hit men" amongst a group of men who required of themselves supreme piety and were poised for the "Great Judgement Day" in which they would fight along with God. This New Sect was no real threat to them as most wouldn't have fit into the sect to start with.

IF there were in fact hit men, seems to me they would more likely have been from the Sadducee Temple sect rather than Qumran. It was the Sadducees who had the most to lose to this "New Way" since their livelihood rested squarely on the tithe and price of sacrifices; something for which this New Way had no requirement. In fact, this New Way had no requirement for the Temple priests at all...


Still reckon the Qumran sect was a breakaway from the ruling Sadducee class. Paul most likely was one of their hit men, as Assyria would hardly be likely to permit any Jew to attack their citizens, even Jewish ones.

My apologies; I can see where my wording went wrong. That "their" applied to the ruling class, not the sect.

Yet again your thinking and mine match.

I wonder though:

If Jesus and John the Baptist actually were from Qumran, when, exactly, did Saul go to "Damascus"? Was he after the breakaways and not the later followers of Jesus?

If so, was Paul a later, altogether different, participant?

That would explain why he knew nothing personal about Jesus.

Bloody rain HAD to start just as I'm off to feed the multitude.


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The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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Originally posted by bluelamp:
What's an IRM?


Innate Realising Mechanism.

My apologies; I thought it would have been in your vocabulary.

I'm re-reading Campbell's The Masks of God: Primitive Mythology, where he refers to the Indian philosophy where he says Indians say the aims humans strive for in the world are but three; love and pleasure (kama), power and success (artha), and lawful order and moral virtue (dharma). (All that after we have eaten and avoided being eaten, of course.)

He then goes in to say all species also are controlled automatically by their genetic programming, so there are some perceptions we "know", not logically but because that is our programming.

All children are genetically programmed to learn, yet we have the orthodox idiocy which demands they be allowed to "play" so we give them dolls and cars.

Fact is, all play is genetically programmed learning, so we need to start that learning process effectively at least from birth.

We know this, yet ignore it.

So what else have we stuffed up, what other IRMs are we ignoring to our cost?

As you know, I can have no argument against the Brahman concept. Just wondering, though, if our Alpha-follower IRM is the reason we keep looking for Alphas which are far above our real-life Alphas who have opted out of their genetic role and care only for themselves?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Frankly, I have considerable difficulty thinking of "Qumran hit men" amongst a group of men who required of themselves supreme piety and were poised for the "Great Judgement Day" in which they would fight along with God. This New Sect was no real threat to them as most wouldn't have fit into the sect to start with.

IF there were in fact hit men, seems to me they would more likely have been from the Sadducee Temple sect rather than Qumran. It was the Sadducees who had the most to lose to this "New Way" since their livelihood rested squarely on the tithe and price of sacrifices; something for which this New Way had no requirement. In fact, this New Way had no requirement for the Temple priests at all...


Still reckon the Qumran sect was a breakaway from the ruling Sadducee class. Paul most likely was one of their hit men, as Assyria would hardly be likely to permit any Jew to attack their citizens, even Jewish ones.

My apologies; I can see where my wording went wrong. That "their" applied to the ruling class, not the sect.


Ahhh, had I spent a bit more time with it, I would have realize that. Been a little rushed lately - got a lot going on.

quote:
Yet again your thinking and mine match.

I wonder though:

If Jesus and John the Baptist actually were from Qumran, when, exactly, did Saul go to "Damascus"? Was he after the breakaways and not the later followers of Jesus?

If so, was Paul a later, altogether different, participant?

That would explain why he knew nothing personal about Jesus.

Hmmm, I still have some doubts that Paul's trip, following his vision, was to Qumran. I mean, it may have been, but there were several Jewish communities actually in Arabia, none of whom found it desireable to return to Judea. And if their religious beliefs were anything like that of the Alexandrians (think Philo), then it would make more sense to me that he would have gone there rather than Qumran.

Am still reading Tom Harpur's The Pagan Christ. Harpur is a Jesuit Priest and has been at this much longer than I have and he writes:
"Paul never once mentions the man Jesus, in the full historical sense. Yet, as stated, he is the earliest witness among all the Bible writers, the one nearest Jesus in actual time. His earliest letters antedate the appearance of Mark by at least a generation.

Of course, a critic will argue that Paul does occasionally speak of Jesus by name. This is quite true. But today, most Bible theologians agree that even when he does so, he is not talking about a man of flesh and blood, a historical person, any more than the Egyptians were when they spoke of Iusa millennia earlier. ... The Jesus Paul dilates upon repeatedly is in reality the spiritual entity in the core of each human's inner being. He is the spiritual Christ principle (the eternal Christos), not the man. As Benjamin Bacon, of the Yale Divinity School, says in his book Jesus and Paul, "Paul is the first Bible writer in the first century and he definitely knows no Christ except one he describes as 'not after the flesh.' " Yes, Paul does talk about "this Jesus whom we have seen," and at times he gives the impression he has an interest in an actual person, but closer examination shows that he really is speaking always of mystical visions of an exalted, spiritual being whom he calls Christ. When, in 1 Corinthians 15, he describes his experience of the risen Christ, he says that "last of all he was seen by me also." But the Greek word he uses for this, and all other apostolic encounters he describes there, is ophthe. It is the word regularly used by the Mystery religionists to describe a visionary "seeing."

As a matter of fact, Bacon says, Paul expressly disavows even having any interest in a "Jesus after the flesh," i.e., a historical Jesus, and his letters bear this out because - and this is significant - they contain not a single reference to any of the great miracles, teachings, and other events related to the Gospel narratives as integral to Jesus' life and ministry. ...

Since Paul was, above all things, a communicator par excellence, he spoke to the people of his time in the mystical language they understood - the vernacular of the Mystery Religions. He uses their phraseology, their symbols, their whole philosophy of personal redemption and immortality through identification with and absorpton into the dead and resurrected Christhood of God's Logos, or Son. All his language about being "in Christ" or having "Christ in you" reflects the current Hellenic theosophy and philosophy. It is really Orphic-Platonic-Mystery cultism, almost pure Hindu or Vedic yoga mysticism, with no immediate reference to the Gospel life of Jesus at all. It is the universal Good News of the incarnation of the divine in every human being."
Tom Harpur, "The Pagan Christ - Recovering the Lost Light"

Another thing, the Gospels never have Jesus mention the Qumran sect. There are no visits logged to Qumran by either Jesus or the apostles. He really never gets into any of their teachings either. According to the Gospels, Jesus doesn't care much about the purity laws regarding food or washing, which seem to be a real big deal at Qumran if one goes by their writings. So I'm not so sure about that one either.

The best I can surmise at this point is that there was likely a person who was teacher/rabbi to the apostles. He was also likely martyred; ie, lived his teachings even unto death, from which the apostles would have drawn their deep admiration. His teachings were of the mystical variety and far removed from the "Mosaic Law" Jerusalem Temple/Pharisee variety.

Funny how the writings of Paul and John speak to me much more so than the Gospels...

And now I absolutely must put me back to bed. Have been sleeping in shifts over the last few days - fall asleep around 6-8 PM and wake around 11-12 then back to sleep around 4-5 AM and up at 7-9... Driving me CRAZY!!!


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Yet again your thinking and mine match.

I wonder though:

If Jesus and John the Baptist actually were from Qumran, when, exactly, did Saul go to "Damascus"? Was he after the breakaways and not the later followers of Jesus?

If so, was Paul a later, altogether different, participant?

That would explain why he knew nothing personal about Jesus.

Hmmm, I still have some doubts that Paul's trip, following his vision, was to Qumran. I mean, it may have been, but there were several Jewish communities actually in Arabia, none of whom found it desireable to return to Judea. And if their religious beliefs were anything like that of the Alexandrians (think Philo), then it would make more sense to me that he would have gone there rather than Qumran...

Funny how the writings of Paul and John speak to me much more so than the Gospels...


The Lukan Acts weren't any better; quite often contradicting Paul aka they were historical fiction. I think Paul's conversion vision (to Cephas, James, and last to the untimely born Paul) was much earlier than his Damascus escapade. Being untimely born would be why Paul did not know the revolutionary Jesus (Judas) of Galilee.

By the time of Damascus, Paul was back to chasing revolutionaries like the James gang to keep them from getting everybody killed. East of the Arabah was the King of the Nabateans whose agent chased Paul out of Damascus.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
As you know, I can have no argument against the Brahman concept. Just wondering, though, if our Alpha-follower IRM is the reason we keep looking for Alphas which are far above our real-life Alphas who have opted out of their genetic role and care only for themselves?


After a google search (actually yahoo), it seems IRM relates to FAP which relates to ANS and even though ANS is the autonomous nervous system that I mentioned earlier, ANS would not have helped either since I'm bad with acronyms even for things I've read about.

Alpha-follower though relates to Authoritarian follower personalities. Even though all don't have that personality (aka some are more natural revolutionaries like the ones Paul went after), all have ways to flip a Jonathan Haidt "hive switch". It's good for humans to form local communities and some gravitate to being the leaders and yes unfortunately many lead for selfish reasons.

For otherworldly beings though, I think Shamanic experiences and "acts of God" in the sky from a giant comet breaking up over time cemented dieties in the minds of both abstract philosophers (like Socrates) and the folk religion-like followers (like Mithraism).
 
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Originally posted by bluelamp:
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
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Yet again your thinking and mine match.

I wonder though:

If Jesus and John the Baptist actually were from Qumran, when, exactly, did Saul go to "Damascus"? Was he after the breakaways and not the later followers of Jesus?

If so, was Paul a later, altogether different, participant?

That would explain why he knew nothing personal about Jesus.

Hmmm, I still have some doubts that Paul's trip, following his vision, was to Qumran. I mean, it may have been, but there were several Jewish communities actually in Arabia, none of whom found it desireable to return to Judea. And if their religious beliefs were anything like that of the Alexandrians (think Philo), then it would make more sense to me that he would have gone there rather than Qumran...

Funny how the writings of Paul and John speak to me much more so than the Gospels...


The Lukan Acts weren't any better; quite often contradicting Paul aka they were historical fiction. I think Paul's conversion vision (to Cephas, James, and last to the untimely born Paul) was much earlier than his Damascus escapade. Being untimely born would be why Paul did not know the revolutionary Jesus (Judas) of Galilee.

By the time of Damascus, Paul was back to chasing revolutionaries like the James gang to keep them from getting everybody killed. East of the Arabah was the King of the Nabateans whose agent chased Paul out of Damascus.

Yeah, when one stacks and racks all the differences in all the stories, it should become clear that they aren't meant to be taken literally; that the "message" is beneath the surface story.

Who are your sources and how do they come to their timeline of Paul's experiences?


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Yeah, when one stacks and racks all the differences in all the stories, it should become clear that they aren't meant to be taken literally; that the "message" is beneath the surface story.

Who are your sources and how do they come to their timeline of Paul's experiences?


It's mainly notes from someone who is working on writing a book which I'll definitely get when it comes out. The parts related to this would be:

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/t.../page-60#post-569215

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1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers and sisters, of the good news that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received, in which also you stand,
1Co 15:2 through which also you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you--unless you have come to believe in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,
1Co 15:5 ...and that he appeared to Cephas,
1Co 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

What does Paul mean by "one untimely born"? I would suggest that he means that he was born TOO LATE to have known "Jesus" which is an additional argument for the 19 AD execution of somebody or other of importance to the Jews, or at least to the revolutionaries and their masses of followers among the common people. If Paul was "converted" in 27 or 29 or thereabouts, that's almost ten years later. If he was a young man at the time of his conversion, say, 25 or so, he would only have been 15 at the time of the execution of whoever.


https://cassiopaea.org/forum/t...5/page-2#post-594095

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Gal 1:15 But when God, who had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace, was pleased
Gal 1:16 to reveal his Son to me, so that I might proclaim him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with any human being,
Gal 1:17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were already apostles before me, but I went away at once into Arabia, and afterwards I returned to Damascus.

Again, we notice that there is no mention of the story of the vision on the road to Damascus that is described three separate times in the book of Acts, each with different and/or contradictory details. Paul never had that experience; it is quite simply made up borrowing from several literary descriptions of such visions in pagan literature of the time. And again, notice his emphasis that he did not confer with anyone - no human being. HOWEVER, he does reference "those who were apostles before me" in Jerusalem, which suggests strongly that he was using SOMETHING from their literature/proclamation. That is to say, he more or less borrowed their "messiah" person for his own purposes.

Paul says he went to Arabia - or the Arabah - the wilderness. He doesn't say how long he was there; it could have been weeks, months, or years. But he does say that he "returned" to Damascus. So, taken together with the fact that he later says that no one in Jerusalem knew him, we can be sure that he wasn't persecuting anyone in Jerusalem but was probably just trying to prevent the recruiting of revolutionaries in Damascus by the James Gang from Jerusalem who were sending emissaries to Jewish communities all over the empire to tell them that god was going to destroy the Romans very soon and to "return" (repent) to their strict observance of Judaism so as to be ready to rise up at the signal.

Note on the Arabah: The Arabah was home to the Edomites (Edom was called "Idumea" in Roman times). East of the Arabah was the domain of the Nabateans, the builders of the city of Petra. Why was Paul there considering a subsequent event as we will see...


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Gal 1:18 Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days;
Gal 1:19 but I did not see any other apostle except James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20 In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!

Here, "the Lord's Brother" does not necessarily mean a brother of Jesus. Most likely, it refers to James as a member of a brotherhood, the Nazoreans, Zealots, Essenes, whatever, and all of them were known this way. Cephas, as is pretty well know, was probably Simon bar Jonah, or Simon the Zealot. That expresses the political nature of this group. But then, in those times, there was no separation of religion and politics.

Also, we learn later that Paul left Damascus under unusual circumstances: he was being chased by the agent of King Aretas of the Nabateans and was hidden and then let down over the city wall in a basket to escape. It is probably at this time that he first went to Jerusalem. 2Co 11:32-33 "In Damascus, the governor under King Aretas guarded the city of Damascus in order to seize me, but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped from his hands."

Notice: Aretas was king of the Nabataeans from roughly 9 BC to AD 40. We already know that 2 Thessalonians was written around 40 AD because of the reference to the activities of Gaius/Caligula which means that Paul's escape must have occurred much earlier in order to give him time to establish his missions in Thessalonica.

So, we have Paul being converted, then going to the land of the Idumeans/Nabataeans for a period, then returning to Damascus for a period of three years at which point he goes to Jerusalem for 15 days and THEN sets off for his major mission...
 
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Originally posted by bluelamp: Content removed.

Thanks. I'm going to save your post, which I did not print here in order to save space, and have a good go at it when time permits.

But something kept popping out at me as I was reading from the URLs you provided though: The "Jewish" God of the Second Temple was not the God of the First Temple... - something that Margaret Barker brings to light; El Elyon is the Father. YHWH, the Son, is a later redaction to the text. In the NT Jesus/Yahoshua/Yeshua means YHWH is salvation, but he prays to the Father...El Elyon.

From the earlier LXX and Qumran Hebrew:
Deuteronomy 32:8 "When El Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the SONS OF GOD (plural). For Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance."

From the much later MT:
Deuteronomy 32:8 "When the Most High (El Elyon) divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the SONS OF ISRAEL. 9 For the Lord's (YHWH's) portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance."

And there seems to have been "the written" and then "the secret" knowledge in the early days of Christianity...

Secret Knowledge: Excerpts from 'The Secret Tradition' chapter of Barker's 'The Great High Priest'

"Thios is the kind of divine enlightenment into which we have been initiated by the hidden traditions of our inspired teachers, a tradition at one with Scripture. We now grasp these things in the best way we can and as they come to us, wrapped in the sacred beliefs of the love toward humanity and with which Scripture and hierarchical traditions cover the truths of the mind with things derived from the realm of the senses. (Dionysius [converted by Paul, became Bishop of Athens], On the Divine Names 592B)"

"But see to it that you do not betray the Holy of Holies. Let your respect for the things of the hidden God be shown in knowledge that comes from the intellect and is unseen. Keep these things of God unshared and undefiled by the uninitiated. (Dionysius, The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy 372A)"

"There was far more to the teaching of Jesus than is recorded in the canonical gospels. For several centuries a belief persisted among Christian writers that there had been a secret tradition entrusted to only a few of his followers. Eusebius quotes from a now lost work of Clement of Alexandria, Hypotyposes: 'James the Righteous, John and Peter were entrusted by the LORD after his resurrection with the higher knowledge. They imparted it to the other apostles, and the other apostles to the seventy, one of whom was Barnabas' (History, 2:1). This brief statement offers three important pieces of evidence: the tradition was given to an inner circle of disciples; the tradition was given after the resurrection; and the tradition was a form of higher knowledge, i.e., gnosis. All the arguments in this area are open to the possibility of being circular, and it may well be that the later traditions were built upon the evidence in the gospels for an inner group of disciples, by people who felt that the post-resurrection period was the ideal time for Jesus to be giving revelations about the heavenly world, and they used this as an opportunity to import fashionable Gnostic ideas into Christianity.

Such insertions WERE the established practice of those who were writing apocalypses at the time (It is inappropriate to distinguish too sharply between 'Jewish' and 'Christian' in the years immediately after the beginning of the Church: R. Murray, 'Jews, Hebrews and Christians - Some Needed Distinctions' Nov. Test. 24 (1982). The Apocalypse of Abraham, for example is an expansion of Genesis 15, but at the point where the canonical text describes the LORD speaking to Abraham, the writer of the Apocalypse has inserted a heavenly ascent, a vision of the throne of God and a revelation of the future. The Apocalypse of Abraham was probably written AFTER 70 CE, since it describes the destruction of the temple (Ap Abr 27:3) and, even though a thorough investigation of the text to determine its original language has yet to be made, it seems likely that it was a Hebrew text from the end of the first Christian century. The Ascension of Isaiah is similar; a Jewish legend has been expanded in two places by a Christian writer. The first of the visions was the reason for his being arrested and put to death by the evil king, Manasseh; the second, although forming an appendix to the book, is set in an earlier period of the prophet's life, in the reign of Hezekiah. Again, the original language was probably Hebrew, and the date about the end of the first Christian century. Thus it is not impossible that those who were promoting Gnostic ideas within the Church should have made additions to the established picture of the life of Jesus. Inserting visions into post-resurrection life of Jesus would have been as acceptable as inserting visions into the story of Abraham or the legend of the death of Isaiah.

The matter, however, is not so simple, because it begins with the assumption that what we call gnosis must have been alien to the teaching of Jesus, and that all traditions of Jesus can no longer be made with any confidence. Furthermore, many of the Gnostic elements which Daniélou has shown so convincingly that what the second century writers described as gnosis is none other than the essence of the Jewish apocalyptic speculation in Hellenistic guise (J. Daniélou, Gospel Message and Hellenistic Culture. A History of Early Christian Doctrine before the Council of Nicaea, 1972, vol 2, pp 458ff, 486ff), the assumption that it must have been alien to Jesus can no longer be made with any confidence. Furthermore, many of the Gnostic elements which Daniélou had thought were a pagan modification of the apocalyptic can now be seen to have roots in the theology of the Jerusalem Temple (as shown in M. Barker, The Great Angel).

There are many passages in the New Testament, both in the Gospels and the Epistles, where the suspicion of the secret tradition is all too apparent. The curious references in the Epistles to the HEAVENLY POWERS and COSMIC STRUGGLES, to MYSTERIES, to the TRANSFORMATION of the believer into a more glorious body, and so forth, give good grounds for suspecting that what the later writers described as 'secret knowledge' taught by Jesus may well have been exactly that. Morton Smith suggested that the Pauline letters, read literally, give a far clearer picture of early Christianity than do the Gospels. The discrepancies between the Synoptic picture of Jesus and the apparent beliefs of Paul's churches...
"may result from a seepage of secret material into originally exoteric texts...More of the esoteric teaching is found in the epistles of Paul, the OLDEST Christian documents, and those most surely written for the READING WITHIN THE CLOSED CIRCLES of the churches...Paul enables us to glimpse the true beliefs of the congregation to which he writes, and he is to be preferred, as a source of early Christian thought, to the later comparatively exoteric Gospels" (M. Smith, Clement of Alexandria and a Secret Gospel of Mark)."

...If a tradition of secret teaching was known to Clement of Alexandria, who flourished at the end of the second century, and if this 'gnosis' is the key to understanding his thought, can it be dismissed as an 'insertion' into the teachings of the church? As Daniélou also observed, the later Gnostics who presented their (by then heretical) views in the form of the secret teachings of Jesus 'attestent du meme coup l'existence de celles-ci'. Clement does not give the impression of having been an innovator; rather, he was concerned with the passing on the 'true traditions' of the Church. He knew of people who were making 'a preverse use of the divine words...they do not enter in as we enter in, through the traditions of the LORD, by DRAWING ASIDE THE CURTAIN' (Misc 7:17), and goes on to show that Church tradition is older than heresy. These teachers, he said, 'preserving the tradition of the blessed doctrine derived DIRECTLY from the holy apostles, Peter, James, John and Paul, the son receiving from the father (but few were like their fathers) came by God's will to us also to deposit those ancestral and apostolic seeds' (Misc 1.1). This 'tradition of blessed doctrine' is described elsewhere as GNOSIS, 'that which has DESCENDED by transmission to a FEW, having been IMPARTED UNWRITTEN by the apostles' (Misc 6.7). It was acquired by 'drawing aside the curtain', TEMPLE IMAGERY FOR ACCESS TO THE PRESENCE OF GOD, THE PRIVILEGE OF THE HIGH PRIEST. We should expect it to concern, inter alia, the LITURGY.

It is important to note that the 'secret tradition' WAS NOT WRITTEN DOWN. Eusebius implies that Clement DID write it down, even though Origen, to whom we shall return, was ALWAYS reticent about committing it to writing. 'Clement', wrote Eusebius, 'in his work on the Pascha declares that his friends insisted on his transmitting to later generations in writing the oral traditions that had come down to him from the EARLIEST AUTHORITIES OF THE CHURCH' (History 6.13). It is the unwritten nature of this tradition that proves to be the greatest problem in any investigation which relies entirely on written sources, there being nothing else to use. We can proceed only by reading between the lines and arguing from silence, always a dangerous procedure, but less so if the context of the lines and the silence are borne in mind."

Now just a few from the long list of evidentuary material that I will attempt to summarize, because if I don't I will never get this posted:

-Clement: First it is knowledge of the past, present and future (Misc 6.7)
-Use of the word 'Apokaluphtheisa' places Clements gnosis in the realm of the 'visionary experience'
-The mysteries were concealed in the Old Testament but revealed by the LORD: 'On the one hand, then, are the mysteries which were hid until the time of the apostles, and were delivered by them as they received from the LORD, and concealed in the Old Testament, were manifested to the saints.' Paul, he said, 'clearly reveals that knowledge belongs not to all...for there were certainly among the HEBREWS some things delivered unwritten...(Misc 5.10) declaring that the roots of this secret tradition/gnosis was PRE CHRISTIAN.
-The goal of the Gnostic is contemplation, theoria, something not available to those who confine themselves to philosophy.
-It is this contemplation that gives knowledge of THINGS PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE - which is also the goal of the apocalyptists' ascents, namely the VISION OF GOD AND THE KNOWLEDGE of all things PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE; 'As the Hebrews gazed upon the glory of Moses and the prophets of Israel on the visions of angels, so we also become able to look the splendours of truth in the face' (Misc 6.16).
-Clement knew many of the apocalyptic texts that were NOT canonized: 1 Enoch, Assumption of Moses, Apocalypse of Zephaniah, Gospel OF THE Hebrews, Gospel OF THE Egyptians.
-Enoch had ascended to the throne and had been transformed into a 'SON OF MAN' (1 En 7.1).
-Enoch describes how Enoch was anointed and clothed in the ROBES OF GLORY (2 En 22.10)
-Gospel of the Hebrews describes Jesus telling how his mother (Holy Spirit) lifted him up by the hair and carried him to Mount Tabor. And while this may SEEM fantastic, the Spirit lifted Ezekiel up by the hair and carried him to Jerusalem (Ezek 8:3)
-Iranaeus: in 'Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching' lists as his first topic on the FIRST ESSENTIALS was a description of the SEVEN HEAVENS, POWERS and the ARCHANGELS IN THEM, the relationship of the CHERUBIM AND SERAPHIM to the WORD AND WISDOM OF GOD, and the ROLE OF THE SEVENFOLD SPIRIT.
-Origen: There were 'certain practices handed down to us in a mystery from the tradition of the apostles.' These traditions 'kept in silence and in secret' included the signing of the cross, facing east to pray, and the words of the epiklesis.

In Barker's own words:

"As more and more is discovered about this tradition, so more and more points of contact can be found between the beliefs of the Ancient Temple theology and what became Christianity."

"If the secret tradition did concern the practice and meaning of the sacraments, and if this tradition was rooted in the symbolism of the temple and the teachings of the ancient priesthood, its recovery is of more than academic interest. It has been all too easy for sola scriptura scholars to dismiss such a claim, and then find themselves constructing theological positions which are not even Biblical, because they have ignored the environing traditions which could have illuminated the meaning of the Biblical texts."


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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All,
I spoke with Steve this afternoon and he was in fine form! You know that bubba is still trying to get Mary Jean, SIA and myself to come stay with him!?!?!? He did every so generously offer to have Allan come stay as well - to give himself a break every now and then.

LOL, that boy has no idea what he would be in for should we take him up on it. But then, he is fairly confident that we won't.

Lovely man - and he is going to try to reach Mary Jean this week. I certainly hope he has better luck than I have had.


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by bluelamp:
Here, "the Lord's Brother" does not necessarily mean a brother of Jesus. Most likely, it refers to James as a member of a brotherhood, the Nazoreans, Zealots, Essenes, whatever, and all of them were known this way. Cephas, as is pretty well know, was probably Simon bar Jonah, or Simon the Zealot. That expresses the political nature of this group. But then, in those times, there was no separation of religion and politics.


How come every time I say that I get my head chopped off?


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The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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