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Amazon Mob's Pub & Coffee Shop Part II
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This Pub and Coffee Shop was originally opened on the old Amazon Christianity Forum where any and all topics are open for discussion.

Not all discussion is expected to concern religion, but we do tend to return to it after frequent digressions.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
This Pub and Coffee Shop was originally opened on the old Amazon Christianity Forum where any and all topics are open for discussion.

Not all discussion is expected to concern religion, but we do tend to return to it after frequent digressions.

No w to just remember this exists for a few more posts!
 
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:

But something kept popping out at me as I was reading from the URLs you provided though: [i]The "Jewish" God of the Second Temple was not the God of the First Temple...

-Clement knew many of the apocalyptic texts that were NOT canonized: 1 Enoch, Assumption of Moses, Apocalypse of Zephaniah, Gospel OF THE Hebrews, Gospel OF THE Egyptians.
-Enoch had ascended to the throne and had been transformed into a 'SON OF MAN' (1 En 7.1).
-Enoch describes how Enoch was anointed and clothed in the ROBES OF GLORY (2 En 22.10)...


The owner of those URLs describes it this way:

quote:
In the end, all of this does affect how one must "read" Paul. I would suggest that he was very familiar with the Enochian tradition derived from the Persian/Babylonian culture, and that his ideas of the "kingdom" were much in line with Zoroaster's "Making Wonderful." He was also most likely fully aware of the probable Zoroastrian nature of Second Isaiah and its acceptance of Cyrus/Persians as the Messiah. He would then have been fully able to transfer those concepts onto Caesar. Because, in the end, there is much of Zoroaster in Paul.


I moved this over here since it showed up on a new page in the old "pub".
 
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

But something kept popping out at me as I was reading from the URLs you provided though: [i]The "Jewish" God of the Second Temple was not the God of the First Temple...

-Clement knew many of the apocalyptic texts that were NOT canonized: 1 Enoch, Assumption of Moses, Apocalypse of Zephaniah, Gospel OF THE Hebrews, Gospel OF THE Egyptians.
-Enoch had ascended to the throne and had been transformed into a 'SON OF MAN' (1 En 7.1).
-Enoch describes how Enoch was anointed and clothed in the ROBES OF GLORY (2 En 22.10)...


The owner of those URLs describes it this way:

quote:
In the end, all of this does affect how one must "read" Paul. I would suggest that he was very familiar with the Enochian tradition derived from the Persian/Babylonian culture, and that his ideas of the "kingdom" were much in line with Zoroaster's "Making Wonderful." He was also most likely fully aware of the probable Zoroastrian nature of Second Isaiah and its acceptance of Cyrus/Persians as the Messiah. He would then have been fully able to transfer those concepts onto Caesar. Because, in the end, there is much of Zoroaster in Paul.


I moved this over here since it showed up on a new page in the old "pub".

Thanks bluelamp, appreciate the move.

Guess I'm gonna have to read up on the Persian/Babylonian culture and Zoroastrian religion... Haven't gotten that far yet.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Guess I'm gonna have to read up on the Persian/Babylonian culture and Zoroastrian religion... Haven't gotten that far yet.


I'd add Indian.

Wasn't till I read up on the Indus Valley civilisation that it dawned on me just how close India actually is.

Then, when I saw the argument on the Indo-Europeans who invaded north-west India and realised they also were the people who became the Persians...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Guess I'm gonna have to read up on the Persian/Babylonian culture and Zoroastrian religion... Haven't gotten that far yet.


I'd add Indian.

Wasn't till I read up on the Indus Valley civilisation that it dawned on me just how close India actually is.

Then, when I saw the argument on the Indo-Europeans who invaded north-west India and realised they also were the people who became the Persians...


Yep yep, "Vedic" and "Avestan" are basically twins:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ndo-Iranian_religion

quote:
Proto-Indo-Iranian religion means the religion of the Indo-Iranian peoples prior to the earliest Hindu and Zoroastrian scriptures.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Guess I'm gonna have to read up on the Persian/Babylonian culture and Zoroastrian religion... Haven't gotten that far yet.


I'd add Indian.

Wasn't till I read up on the Indus Valley civilisation that it dawned on me just how close India actually is.

Then, when I saw the argument on the Indo-Europeans who invaded north-west India and realised they also were the people who became the Persians...

You two are like having two little boys under my feet anxious to spend mamma's money!

So how about a couple of book titles to get me started, huh?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Here to stay...
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You two are like having two little boys under my feet anxious to spend mamma's money!
So how about a couple of book titles to get me started, huh?


Why waste cash?

Do as I do; anything you see on the Internet you want more information on, something you want to learn more about the pros and cons, highlight it and follow the links. I usually finish up clogging my computer with sites I need to read.

Check this from bluelamp's site:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ndo-Iranian_religion
Proto-Indo-Iranian religion means the religion of the Indo-Iranian peoples prior to the earliest Hindu and Zoroastrian scriptures. These share a common inheritance of concepts including the universal force *Hṛta- (Sanskrit rta, Avestan asha), the sacred plant and drink *sawHma- (Sanskrit Soma, Avestan Haoma) and gods of social order such as *mitra- (Sanskrit Mitra, Avestan and Old Persian Mithra, Miϑra) and *bʰaga- (Sanskrit Bhaga, Avestan and Old Persian Baga). Proto-Indo-Iranian religion is an archaic offshoot of Indo-European religion.

Seems bluelamp (nor you?) did not check my earlier link on the first of those.

It said Zarathustra was conceived only after his parents drank soma. I can't see how anyone checking my links can doubt the importance of this. Zarathustra himself said haoma/soma created our deities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...arison_of_haoma/soma
The Haoma plant is a central element in the legend surrounding the conception of Zoroaster. In the story, his father Pouroshaspa took a piece of the Haoma plant and mixed it with milk. He gave his wife Dugdhova one half of the mixture and he consumed the other. They then conceived Zoroaster who was instilled with the spirit of the plant.

As for the second, well, you know me. bluelamp very kindly confirmed that religion and politics were inseparable in those days.

Perfectly understandable for most believers to begin with Abraham then follow through to end up where the Jews rewrote the Bible.

But just who were those first Hebrews?

Seems to me they were a rebellious Semitic group who turned against their own king to recreate the then politico-religious beliefs of the day.

Who did they rebel against and why? "Nimrod" is an insulting nickname; who can any independent king rebel against?

Himself?

Or a militant bunch of heretics?

Nor is it just those treasonous Semites we need to know far more about.

What impact did those genetically and culturally different marauding Indo-Europeans have when they moved from the steppes to north-west India and Mesopotamia? Obviously their initial religion had a major impact on both countries, developing independently because of the different cultures they invaded/migrated into.

I keep insisting we need to get away from the Hebrew/Jewish Middle East and learn far more about the impacts of people-movements in the regions from Greece to the Balkans.

After all, it is highly possible that the inundation of the Black Sea is the source for the Bible's flood. What impact did the survivors of that flood had? Some, at least, certainly headed in the general direction of Canaan after saving their families and domestic animals after building their arks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ea_deluge_hypothesis
In 1997, William Ryan, Walter Pitman and their colleagues published their hypothesis that a massive flooding of the Black Sea occurred about 5600 BC through the Bosphorus.[2] Before that date, glacial meltwater had turned the Black and Caspian Seas into vast freshwater lakes draining into the Aegean Sea.
...Samplings of sediments in the Black Sea by a series of expeditions carried out between 1998 and 2005 in the frame of a European Project ASSEMBLAGE[9] and coordinated by a French oceanographer, Gilles Lericolais,[10] brought some new inputs to the hypothesis. The results were also completed by the Noah Project led by Petko Dimitrov from the Bulgarian Institute of Oceanology (IO-BAS).[11] Furthermore, calculations made by Mark Siddall predicted an underwater canyon that was actually found.[12] A five-year cross-disciplinary research project under the sponsorship of UNESCO and the International Union of Geological Sciences was conducted 2005–9.[13]

Robert Graves is great on the migrations of those days. We tend to think that, once they had settled down to farming, people did not migrate much. This is wrong. Graves goes into detail about Mediterranean tribes who were forced to move west either because of invasion or because of forced migration when the farming tribes grew too numerous.

According to National Geographic's genome research my Mum and Dad's distant ancestors left Africa thousands of years apart and took different routes before reaching Clydebank. Need to do more research, however I know I have at least Irish and English relatives. My children have a parent from each Scottish coast (different cultures) and one has a German husband, so you can imagine my reaction to President Trump's resurrection of pre-War US Isolationism.

The Tuatha de Danann travelled extensively, leaving their goddess' name in the likes of Denmark.
https://aliisaacstoryteller.co...ho-were-they-really/

I have found any number of ancient cultures where archaeologists have uncovered all sorts of artefacts which can only have come from many hundreds, if not thousands, of miles away in what had to be ongoing trading.

So it seems pointless to me to stick only with what Jews say about themselves and their "history". Haven't been able to find anyone they saw as allies and friends.

They had bloody good reason to fear the educated Greeks, who were well on the way to declaring all deities redundant until Constantine wisely saw the value of Christianity as a vital one-third of his trinity of religions to meet his political needs.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1532 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Seems bluelamp (nor you?) did not check my earlier link on the first of those.

It said Zarathustra was conceived only after his parents drank soma. I can't see how anyone checking my links can doubt the importance of this. Zarathustra himself said haoma/soma created our deities.


Yes Zoroaster did not like those storm god-like polytheism type dieties. I personally though think those were Younger Dryas comet fragment created deities. Zoroaster was not a soma/haoma fan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster

quote:
By the age of thirty, he experienced a revelation during a spring festival; on the river bank he saw a shining Being, who revealed himself as Vohu Manah (Good Purpose) and taught him about Ahura Mazda (Wise Spirit) and five other radiant figures. Zoroaster soon became aware of the existence of two primal Spirits, the second being Angra Mainyu (Hostile Spirit), with opposing concepts of Asha (truth) and Druj (lie). Thus he decided to spend his life teaching people to seek Asha.[54] He received further revelations and saw a vision of the seven Amesha Spenta, and his teachings were collected in the Gathas and the Avesta.

He taught about free will,[56] and opposed the use of the hallucinogenic Haoma plant in rituals, polytheism, over-ritualising religious ceremonies and animal sacrifices, as well an oppressive class system in Persia which earned him strong opposition among local authorities.


The Amesha Spenta was a 7 heavens type scheme (7 densities in modern channeling) which would have Zurvan/Ein Sof/Brahman in the 7th heaven/density.

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/t.../page-17#post-728903

quote:
Zarathushtra's six immortals born of Amesha Spenta (Boundless Immortality):

Vohu Manah (Su Manah): Good Intention; Persian Bahman
Asha Vahishta (Asha Vasishtha): Best Law; Ardvahisht
Kshathra Vairya (Kshatra Vairya): Heroic Dominion
Spenta Armaiti (Spanda Aramati): Bounteous Devotion
Haurvatat (Sarvatata): Wholeness
Amaratat (Amaratata): Immortality


The 6 immortals would be 6th heaven/density and this would be the highest heaven/density that you could actually channel. In the Judaeo-Christianity sense, you could call them archangels. There aren't literally six of them of course; that's just symbolism for being one step down from the seventh heaven of Zurvan/Ein Sof/Brahman.

The Ahura Mazda (Wise Spirit) vs. Angra Mainyu (Hostile Spirit) thing relates to a 4th heaven/density angel vs fallen angel kind of thing. We are 3rd heaven/density; lower life would be 2nd heaven/density; and inanimate objects would be 1st heaven/density.

quote:
As for the second, well, you know me. bluelamp very kindly confirmed that religion and politics were inseparable in those days.


Really they should always be connected. You just need a messiah like Julius Caesar rather than a "vile boy" like Augustus.

quote:
Perfectly understandable for most believers to begin with Abraham then follow through to end up where the Jews rewrote the Bible.


They rewrote the Bible using Hittite history with some added in newer Persian history and some really ancient stuff (Younger Dryas and Golden Age).

quote:
But just who were those first Hebrews?

Seems to me they were a rebellious Semitic group who turned against their own king to recreate the then politico-religious beliefs of the day.

Who did they rebel against and why? "Nimrod" is an insulting nickname; who can any independent king rebel against?

Himself?

Or a militant bunch of heretics?

Nor is it just those treasonous Semites we need to know far more about.


Well Nimrod and the Tower of Babel is going back to Noah/Atlantis/Younger Dryas times when there was still some odd psychic abilities/technology around. Would kind of be a rebellion against brainwashing.

quote:
What impact did those genetically and culturally different marauding Indo-Europeans have when they moved from the steppes to north-west India and Mesopotamia? Obviously their initial religion had a major impact on both countries, developing independently because of the different cultures they invaded/migrated into.

I keep insisting we need to get away from the Hebrew/Jewish Middle East and learn far more about the impacts of people-movements in the regions from Greece to the Balkans.


Yeah the Zoroaster-like proto-Indo-Iranian religion ideas made their way to Pythagoras on down to Socrates on down to Posidonius/Caesar as well as via the Hittite/Mitanni/Egypt triangle down to Babylonia/Canaan. Paul kind of got it from both sides.

quote:
After all, it is highly possible that the inundation of the Black Sea is the source for the Bible's flood. What impact did the survivors of that flood had? Some, at least, certainly headed in the general direction of Canaan after saving their families and domestic animals after building their arks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ea_deluge_hypothesis
In 1997, William Ryan, Walter Pitman and their colleagues published their hypothesis that a massive flooding of the Black Sea occurred about 5600 BC through the Bosphorus.[2] Before that date, glacial meltwater had turned the Black and Caspian Seas into vast freshwater lakes draining into the Aegean Sea.
...Samplings of sediments in the Black Sea by a series of expeditions carried out between 1998 and 2005 in the frame of a European Project ASSEMBLAGE[9] and coordinated by a French oceanographer, Gilles Lericolais,[10] brought some new inputs to the hypothesis. The results were also completed by the Noah Project led by Petko Dimitrov from the Bulgarian Institute of Oceanology (IO-BAS).[11] Furthermore, calculations made by Mark Siddall predicted an underwater canyon that was actually found.[12] A five-year cross-disciplinary research project under the sponsorship of UNESCO and the International Union of Geological Sciences was conducted 2005–9.[13]


I'm going with Younger Dryas for Noah/Atlantis/Deucalion and other myths ranging from the Americas to China.

quote:
Robert Graves is great on the migrations of those days. We tend to think that, once they had settled down to farming, people did not migrate much. This is wrong. Graves goes into detail about Mediterranean tribes who were forced to move west either because of invasion or because of forced migration when the farming tribes grew too numerous.

According to National Geographic's genome research my Mum and Dad's distant ancestors left Africa thousands of years apart and took different routes before reaching Clydebank. Need to do more research, however I know I have at least Irish and English relatives. My children have a parent from each Scottish coast (different cultures) and one has a German husband, so you can imagine my reaction to President Trump's resurrection of pre-War US Isolationism.

The Tuatha de Danann travelled extensively, leaving their goddess' name in the likes of Denmark.
https://aliisaacstoryteller.co...ho-were-they-really/

I have found any number of ancient cultures where archaeologists have uncovered all sorts of artefacts which can only have come from many hundreds, if not thousands, of miles away in what had to be ongoing trading.

So it seems pointless to me to stick only with what Jews say about themselves and their "history". Haven't been able to find anyone they saw as allies and friends.

They had bloody good reason to fear the educated Greeks, who were well on the way to declaring all deities redundant until Constantine wisely saw the value of Christianity as a vital one-third of his trinity of religions to meet his political needs.


Dudes came down from the Steppes multiple times after dynasties crumbled cataclysmically.
 
Posts: 900 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Heard from Steve today. Poor baby has had the flu...

Says the weather is beautiful though and that he's gonna make himself a Chocolate Silk Pie tomorrow. Been a while since I've had a bite of one of those.


Speaking of which, Mrs Exp?

Sorry Bryan, haven't heard so much as a peep from Mary Jean. But I'm gonna keep trying...


quote:
Ok. That girl just insists on worrying me. If you hear from her send my love.

Will do.

quote:
Btw, in your research did you find anything about where the House of Judah and the House of Israel will be returned. Someone I've been arguing with (who claims the current Israel despite bible passages pointing out the land is not only not there's but never truly was, it was just on loan) unintentionally brought up a possible interesting point. That while the Houses will be regathered, there might be no promise of where, maybe. I've been trying to stay away from all that stuff for a long while now.


Never mind think I found my answers, but if you have anything it might be interesting to see.


Yeah, and it's been a couple of years since I have been involved in it, so I'm a little rusty on the particulars at this time. But ultimately, Israel is not a place, it is a people whose name is a message:
Isra: Contends/Prevails.
el: God.
God prevails.

Judah was the fourth son of Jacob.
Judah: Praise.

Isaiah 8:14 "HE shall become a sanctuary AND and stone of stumbling AND a rock of falling TO BOTH HOUSES OF ISRAEL (Israel/Judah), a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem."

Matthew 15:24
"I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

Hosea:

Hosea 1:10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered; And it shall be, in the place where it is said to them, "You are not My people", it shall be said to them, "Sons of the Living God."

Jezreel: Elohim will sow
Lo-Ruhamah: No mercy
Lo-Ammi: Not my people

Hosea 2:23 "And I will sow (Jezreel) her to Me in the earth. And I will have mercy on No Mercy (Lo-Ruhaman). And I WILL SAY to Not My People (Lo-Ammi), You are My people (Ammi)."

1 Peter 2:10 to Diaspora Israel:
"Who once were not a people but are now the sons of the Living God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy"

Romans 9:24-26 to Diaspora Israel:
"Even us, whom He has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As He says also in Osee [Hosea], 'I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, you are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

NOTE: Hosea calls them the Children of Israel. Paul calls them Gentiles/[Nations]. The children of Israel were in fact dispersed amongst the gentiles (nations) and in Genesis were prophesied to become a great people and a multitude of nations (gentiles).

If Israel is not IN the Church, why are Peter and Paul quoting God's message written to the northern lost 10 tribes of Israel to the Gentiles in the New Testament?

Why was Paul sent to the Gentiles? To reach the lost sheep of the house of Israel! In Paul's own words: "I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles." Romans 11:11

But I think the verse you are looking for is Jeremiah 3:18 "In those days the House of Judah will walk with the House of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance."

Several more:
Isaiah 11:13
Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, And those who harass Judah will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, And Judah will not harass Ephraim.

Jeremiah 7:7
then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever.

Jeremiah 16:15
but, 'As the LORD lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.' For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers.

Jeremiah 30:3
'For behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' The LORD says, 'I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.'"

Jeremiah 31:8
"Behold, I am bringing them from the north country, And I will gather them from the remote parts of the earth, Among them the blind and the lame, The woman with child and she who is in labor with child, together; A great company, they will return here.

Jeremiah 50:4
"In those days and at that time," declares the LORD, "the sons of Israel will come, both they and the sons of Judah as well; they will go along weeping as they go, and it will be the LORD their God they will seek.

Jeremiah 50:5
"They will ask for the way to Zion, turning their faces in its direction; they will come that they may join themselves to the LORD in an everlasting covenant that will not be forgotten.

Ezekiel 11:17
"Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries among which you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.'"

Ezekiel 37:22
"...and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms."

Hosea 1:11
"And the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel will be gathered together, And they will appoint for themselves one leader, And they will go up from the land, For great will be the day of Jezreel."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 3640 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Enthusiast...
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You two are like having two little boys under my feet anxious to spend mamma's money!
So how about a couple of book titles to get me started, huh?


Why waste cash?

Do as I do; anything you see on the Internet you want more information on, something you want to learn more about the pros and cons, highlight it and follow the links. I usually finish up clogging my computer with sites I need to read.

Check this from bluelamp's site:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ndo-Iranian_religion
Proto-Indo-Iranian religion means the religion of the Indo-Iranian peoples prior to the earliest Hindu and Zoroastrian scriptures. These share a common inheritance of concepts including the universal force *Hṛta- (Sanskrit rta, Avestan asha), the sacred plant and drink *sawHma- (Sanskrit Soma, Avestan Haoma) and gods of social order such as *mitra- (Sanskrit Mitra, Avestan and Old Persian Mithra, Miϑra) and *bʰaga- (Sanskrit Bhaga, Avestan and Old Persian Baga). Proto-Indo-Iranian religion is an archaic offshoot of Indo-European religion.

Seems bluelamp (nor you?) did not check my earlier link on the first of those.

It said Zarathustra was conceived only after his parents drank soma. I can't see how anyone checking my links can doubt the importance of this. Zarathustra himself said haoma/soma created our deities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...arison_of_haoma/soma
The Haoma plant is a central element in the legend surrounding the conception of Zoroaster. In the story, his father Pouroshaspa took a piece of the Haoma plant and mixed it with milk. He gave his wife Dugdhova one half of the mixture and he consumed the other. They then conceived Zoroaster who was instilled with the spirit of the plant.

As for the second, well, you know me. bluelamp very kindly confirmed that religion and politics were inseparable in those days.

Perfectly understandable for most believers to begin with Abraham then follow through to end up where the Jews rewrote the Bible.

But just who were those first Hebrews?

Seems to me they were a rebellious Semitic group who turned against their own king to recreate the then politico-religious beliefs of the day.

Who did they rebel against and why? "Nimrod" is an insulting nickname; who can any independent king rebel against?

Himself?

Or a militant bunch of heretics?

Nor is it just those treasonous Semites we need to know far more about.

What impact did those genetically and culturally different marauding Indo-Europeans have when they moved from the steppes to north-west India and Mesopotamia? Obviously their initial religion had a major impact on both countries, developing independently because of the different cultures they invaded/migrated into.

I keep insisting we need to get away from the Hebrew/Jewish Middle East and learn far more about the impacts of people-movements in the regions from Greece to the Balkans.

After all, it is highly possible that the inundation of the Black Sea is the source for the Bible's flood. What impact did the survivors of that flood had? Some, at least, certainly headed in the general direction of Canaan after saving their families and domestic animals after building their arks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ea_deluge_hypothesis
In 1997, William Ryan, Walter Pitman and their colleagues published their hypothesis that a massive flooding of the Black Sea occurred about 5600 BC through the Bosphorus.[2] Before that date, glacial meltwater had turned the Black and Caspian Seas into vast freshwater lakes draining into the Aegean Sea.
...Samplings of sediments in the Black Sea by a series of expeditions carried out between 1998 and 2005 in the frame of a European Project ASSEMBLAGE[9] and coordinated by a French oceanographer, Gilles Lericolais,[10] brought some new inputs to the hypothesis. The results were also completed by the Noah Project led by Petko Dimitrov from the Bulgarian Institute of Oceanology (IO-BAS).[11] Furthermore, calculations made by Mark Siddall predicted an underwater canyon that was actually found.[12] A five-year cross-disciplinary research project under the sponsorship of UNESCO and the International Union of Geological Sciences was conducted 2005–9.[13]

Robert Graves is great on the migrations of those days. We tend to think that, once they had settled down to farming, people did not migrate much. This is wrong. Graves goes into detail about Mediterranean tribes who were forced to move west either because of invasion or because of forced migration when the farming tribes grew too numerous.

According to National Geographic's genome research my Mum and Dad's distant ancestors left Africa thousands of years apart and took different routes before reaching Clydebank. Need to do more research, however I know I have at least Irish and English relatives. My children have a parent from each Scottish coast (different cultures) and one has a German husband, so you can imagine my reaction to President Trump's resurrection of pre-War US Isolationism.

The Tuatha de Danann travelled extensively, leaving their goddess' name in the likes of Denmark.
https://aliisaacstoryteller.co...ho-were-they-really/

I have found any number of ancient cultures where archaeologists have uncovered all sorts of artefacts which can only have come from many hundreds, if not thousands, of miles away in what had to be ongoing trading.

So it seems pointless to me to stick only with what Jews say about themselves and their "history". Haven't been able to find anyone they saw as allies and friends.

They had bloody good reason to fear the educated Greeks, who were well on the way to declaring all deities redundant until Constantine wisely saw the value of Christianity as a vital one-third of his trinity of religions to meet his political needs.

Gonna make me do this the hard way huh?

You see, I can read a book in a leisure chair or reclined on the bed. What I cannot do is sit bolt upright in front of a computer for hours on end... But I'll see what I can work out.


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 3640 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by bluelamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Seems bluelamp (nor you?) did not check my earlier link on the first of those.

It said Zarathustra was conceived only after his parents drank soma. I can't see how anyone checking my links can doubt the importance of this. Zarathustra himself said haoma/soma created our deities.


quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster

By the age of thirty, he experienced a revelation during a spring festival; on the river bank he saw a shining Being, who revealed himself as Vohu Manah (Good Purpose) and taught him about Ahura Mazda (Wise Spirit) and five other radiant figures. Zoroaster soon became aware of the existence of two primal Spirits, the second being Angra Mainyu (Hostile Spirit), with opposing concepts of Asha (truth) and Druj (lie). Thus he decided to spend his life teaching people to seek Asha.[54] He received further revelations and saw a vision of the seven Amesha Spenta, and his teachings were collected in the Gathas and the Avesta.

He taught about free will,[56] and opposed the use of the hallucinogenic Haoma plant in rituals, polytheism, over-ritualising religious ceremonies and animal sacrifices, as well an oppressive class system in Persia which earned him strong opposition among local authorities.

Must say, I lean very heavily toward "revealed" vice "soma-created" deities, although "created" is possibly being used rather loosely here.


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Must say, I lean very heavily toward "revealed" vice "soma-created" deities, although "created" is possibly being used rather loosely here.


Revealed?

By what?

So far, I have yet to find any religion which does not have its origin in entheogens.

Was doubtful about the First Australians, however have found this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10437998
Plant hallucinogens, such as those of the Duboisia genus called pituri, have been used by tribal elders in Australian aboriginal populations to create managed states of consciousness, to provide their youth with a fast-paced educational experience, and to inculcate values, beliefs and religious tenets. Use of the suggestible states created by such substances (particularly in pubertal initiatory rituals marking the transition to manhood) are part of this process, which contributes to cultural cohesiveness and survival; their effectiveness is due to the unique ability of the biochemical properties of the plant to evoke suggestibility in those who ingest them. (My emphasis, of course.)

The intellectual curse of modern times is orthodoxy, not just in religion but in science.

Religions pretend entheogens are of no meaning, using the stake, the chopping block, or exile to ensure they get their message across.

Buggered if I can find out why science penalises heretical scientists, those capable of thinking for themselves.

In the not too far distant future, some computer nerds are going to combine the orthodox with the unorthodox, and In My (less than humble) Opinion, all hell will break loose.

Will need to see what I can find on the value of Michael Baigent's research, however can recommend his Ancient Traces; Mysteries in Ancient and Early History.


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The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1532 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Must say, I lean very heavily toward "revealed" vice "soma-created" deities, although "created" is possibly being used rather loosely here.


Revealed?

By what?

So far, I have yet to find any religion which does not have its origin in entheogens.


Paleochristianity.org has its origins from a Ouija board. You can get Zoroaster/Loka-like information from trance channeling or a Ouija board. The "Sea of faces" and other entheogen art from Hancock's book can be revealed via mediums and hypnotherapists too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/...ry/zoroaster_1.shtml

quote:
Zoroaster believed in one creator God, teaching that only one God was worthy of worship. Furthermore, some of the deities of the old religion, the Daevas (Devas in Sanskrit), appeared to delight in war and strife. Zoroaster said that these were evil spirits and were workers of Angra Mainyu, God's adversary.


Yeah Hancock's entheogen art can be a 3-5 heaven-like experience but a 6th heaven-like teaching like what Zoroaster received over time needs some channeling too (trance or board which don't need entheogens aka Zoroaster did not like entheogens). One can have interesting astral projection/near death/meditation/dream experiences without entheogens too but those are a 3-5 experience too.

The physics I like behind a 6th heaven-like channeling is that you are forming an entanglement in time between you and yourself in a possible massless particle future.

https://www.sott.net/article/2...tice-and-of-a-Theory

quote:
Buggered if I can find out why science penalises heretical scientists, those capable of thinking for themselves.

In the not too far distant future, some computer nerds are going to combine the orthodox with the unorthodox, and In My (less than humble) Opinion, all hell will break loose.

Will need to see what I can find on the value of Michael Baigent's research, however can recommend his Ancient Traces; Mysteries in Ancient and Early History.


Luckily there are scientists (like the ones in my link above) who make do in spite of the penalty. The one who wrote the article co-owns paleochristianity.org with his hypnotherapist channeling author wife who is working on the book about Paul.
 
Posts: 900 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Must say, I lean very heavily toward "revealed" vice "soma-created" deities, although "created" is possibly being used rather loosely here.


Revealed?

By what?

Visions. Experiences. Encounters.

Entheogens don't "create" anything. They simply produce an altered state of consciousness, through which "some" people can experience spiritual phenomena. And then there are "some" people who don't require enthogen enablers for such experiences.

Maybe you should try one of these in order to "really" understand:
https://spiritualityhealth.com...s-spiritual-explorer


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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New info on the KJV

https://www.thedailybeast.com/...ing-method-they-hate


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bryan j borich
 
Posts: 465 | Location: CA | Mbr Since: 05-02-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Must say, I lean very heavily toward "revealed" vice "soma-created" deities, although "created" is possibly being used rather loosely here.


Revealed?

By what?



The intellectual curse of modern times is orthodoxy, not just in religion but in science.

Religions pretend entheogens are of no meaning, using the stake, the chopping block, or exile to ensure they get their message across.

Buggered if I can find out why science penalises heretical scientists, those capable of thinking for themselves.

In the not too far distant future, some computer nerds are going to combine the orthodox with the unorthodox, and In My (less than humble) Opinion, all hell will break loose.

Will need to see what I can find on the value of Michael Baigent's research, however can recommend his Ancient Traces; Mysteries in Ancient and Early History.


Scientists have similar mindsets to priests, they both have belief systems they have their egos invested in.


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bryan j borich
 
Posts: 465 | Location: CA | Mbr Since: 05-02-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

Yeah, and it's been a couple of years since I have been involved in it, so I'm a little rusty on the particulars at this time. But ultimately, Israel is not a place, it is a people whose name is a message:


The tricky part is returning to the land of your fathers. Which fathers makes a huge difference.


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bryan j borich
 
Posts: 465 | Location: CA | Mbr Since: 05-02-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

Guess I'm gonna have to read up on the Persian/Babylonian culture and Zoroastrian religion... Haven't gotten that far yet.


There was a humorous post on the Onion about Netenyahu demanding the Zoroastrian Fire Temple back as it belonged to their ancestors along the rest of Iran.


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bryan j borich
 
Posts: 465 | Location: CA | Mbr Since: 05-02-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Allan
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
The Amesha Spenta was a 7 heavens type scheme (7 densities in modern channeling) which would have Zurvan/Ein Sof/Brahman in the 7th heaven/density.
..The 6 immortals would be 6th heaven/density and this would be the highest heaven/density that you could actually channel. In the Judaeo-Christianity sense, you could call them archangels. There aren't literally six of them of course; that's just symbolism for being one step down from the seventh heaven of Zurvan/Ein Sof/Brahman.


Why should 7 be any more than a significant mythological metaphor for Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn?

Compare the attributes of those seven and see how many match the ones you quote.

quote:
Well Nimrod and the Tower of Babel is going back to Noah/Atlantis/Younger Dryas times when there was still some odd psychic abilities/technology around. Would kind of be a rebellion against brainwashing.


One hell of a difference between brainwashing and accessing normally inaccessible brain neuron modules.

Our distant ancestors would have any number of such modules necessary for them in their environment. Some, such as automatic flight when danger looms, may well have been remodelled and now keep us alive when we drive in dense high-speed traffic.

But what about the others? Are they still there, accessible only in an altered stater of consciousness?

As for those lost psychic abilities/technology, they were alive and well when we whitefellas first arrived here, and were still recognised last century. Who's to say they are lost?
https://downloads.newcastle.ed...pdf/elkinjan1937.pdf

As for the other Bible tales: Babel was an uneducated attempt to explain the variety of languages (with the magical 72) while at the same time slinging off at those Babylonians whose Marduk had whupped Adonai's butt.

Here's your 7 yet again: Rabbinic Judaism describes seven names which are so holy that, once written, should not be erased:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

The Younger Dryas, as I understand it, was some 10,000 years before the Bible's borrowed flood.

quote:
Dudes came down from the Steppes multiple times after dynasties crumbled cataclysmically.


I'm not aware of any cataclysms which drove the Indo-Europeans from the steppes. Can you help.

Graves made much of the Mycenaean Greeks who, it seems, arose from those Indo-Europeans I reckon we need to know more about. Since early Greek tribes are said to have moved to the Iberian peninsula then to Ireland, those migrations were vital.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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