quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Ah Ha! Now we get to it!
Jesus is the one we learned of FIRST. He is the one who brought the old savior myth to us. He is the one that got us on the right track. There will never be another first of that for us. So he is the one we begin and end with.

As I said, congratulations on coming up with this key concept.

My experience with Christianity was as a boy. Dad played a big part in our Congregational and (old-style, pre-fundie) Presbyterian churches, we gave thanks to God when we ate, attended church regularly, and I do not remember ever doubting Him. Except, and I think this was where I began to move on, when I came from that sermon thinking the Adam and Eve story was grossly unfair, and had an argument with an Elder who simply had no answer to my boyhood questions.

I moved on to the earlier Cosmic Saviours Buddha, Vishnu, Krishna, and to Marcus Aurelius (Meditations on Stoic philosophy), Confucius Analects, Robert Graves, Mircea Eliade, Joseph Campbell, and a great many others.

Remember watching decades ago a 6-hour Mahābhārata which had a big impact and now will have to see if I can find a DVD of this. Ye gods and little fishes -- somewhere between $80 and $300.

Hinduism for me is far more real than any of the Abrahamic religions, which, as you know, I see as edited, political, copies of earlier and different mythologies. No big deal, everyone did that. No such thing as copyright. I need to get back to bluelamp to explore the concepts he sees as identical to the way I see the Brahman.

You might remember my saying we lost the plot at some time after we began farming, adopting the alien concept of private property.

Even Gilgamesh was seen as the Shepherd of the Flock of Uruk, so what happened?

Seems to me far too many religious/political leaders failed to control their yetzer ha ra, taking us all to Hell in a handbasket.

I like (my interpretation??) of the Brahman -- the Unknown and Unknowable.

We have to know that as-yet Unknowable.

Problem is, we create letter-sounds to help us do that, then make the mistake of believing those letter-sounds are the real thing.

The Rainbow Serpent, Brighid, Cernunnos, Cerridwen, The Dagda, Herne, The Morrighan, Lugh, Rhiannon, Odin, Thor, Quetzalcoatl, God, Adonai, Allah, all ultimately mean exactly the same concepts.

Much prefer the Celtic Otherworld, Tír Tairngire ("land of promise/promised land"),[1] Tír na nÓg ("land of the young/land of youth"), Annwfn. to the Christian Hell.

I remember thinking the Adam and Eve story was unfair, as a child too! Thanks for the reminder.

I enjoyed learning from Rolling Stome, on Amazon, how Judaism understood the story. I was unnerved by your sparring partners, Shmooze, literalism that seemed too Christian.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Can’t say as I was worried about your Spirituality, more musing that you don’t often acknowledge it.

Do now

Our ASC made all the difference.

Birds are whingeing, so must go.

Yep, acknowledged now too.

Had to look up whingeing, still don’t understand the difference from whining, but it’s an interesting word.

This looks interesting

https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-.../ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

This looks interesting

https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-.../ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:
First, I have to congratulate you on belting the nail well and truly on the head when you said Jesus was your first Saviour. That, for me, makes all the difference, and I will get back to that.

Oh, I figured you would

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I am aware of Enoch and Azazel, however I was sticking only to the canonised books.

I will not stick to only the canonise books because it is a false base when discussing either pre-Christian Judaism or NT understanding of Christianity.

quote:

Where, exactly, did Enoch come from, where did he find all this new information?

As with so much else, I see Enoch as a product of the exile. You will remember that, for me, the Zarathustrian Cyrus* did politico-religious deals with all the exiles, not just the Jews. He offered to return them to their respective homelands with the money to restore their temples and get their lives back to normal.

Maybe, but I have serious doubts about that. One of the things Barker points out is the condemnation of intertestamental Judaism in Enoch. According to Enoch, "they had lost their way."

quote:

With one qualification.

An astute politician, Cyrus wanted to protect his borders with vassal States.

I'm still not convinced that ALL of what you find similar in Judaism and Mesopotamian/Zoroastrianism religions is due to borrowing/copying, although I'm willing to admit to SOME of it.

That said, seems to me that Harpur found that most of what is found in Christianity could also be found in ancient Egyptian religion and others. If that is the case, then much of it can also be found in the noncanonized OT since that was where the Christians quoted their reference points from...

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Seems not only logical but mandatory that those deals included the adoption of certain Zarathustrian concepts. These included a reference -- what's in a name, remember? -- to the opposing evil force Angra Mainyu/Ahriman. Zarathustra himself, of course, was another new concept which had to be accepted as part of the deal. Zarathustra would return as nothing less than the Christ/Mashiach/Messiah. Be no big deal for the liberal-minded** and pragmatic Cyrus to compromise by permitting the Jews to say Zarathustra was really a descendant of the legendary (and false) King David, even, like Zarathustra, a resurrected David himself (there's Shakespeare's rose yet again). (In passing, was it Harpur who said those Jews did indeed believe in reincarnation?)

Naturally enough, IMO those Jews also accepted some of the Babylonian teachings on Marduk. A minor Babylonian patron deity for the Sumerians, Marduk was promoted to head honcho when the Babylonians achieved military and economic dominance in the region. According to the Babylonians, the Dragon Lady Tiamat rebelled against the gods when they killed her husband. Marduk defeated the Dragon Lady and banished her from their version of Heaven and was rewarded by his promotion.

Why else do you think there was such deep opposition and resentment among those Jews who had stayed home and continued the earlier Judaism? Not only had they lost the First Temple teaching, they now had to accept Armageddon, a real opponent to Adonai, and a new Saviour.

I'm not well read on the ancient Babylonian or Persian religions, but if those "left behind" had continued with the pre Hezekiah/Josiah religion, and the exiles were bringing back the Hezekiah/Josiah changes, plus some new foreign concepts, then there would certainly have been considerable tension between the two.

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I note you and Reed were wondering about my spiritual nature, another post series I need to return to.

You have no need to worry. Over the past few months, aided greatly by our ASC, ICB knows we are one with the One.

Oh, I'm not "worried" about it so much as I wasn't certain that you recognized it for what it was. A little ASC usually tends to remedy that...and recognizing that you are one with the One is pretty much all the proof that can be had.

Will have to review the rest after I have finished my current crochet projects. I'm a bit pressed for time and can only spend my breaks sorting through these posts and peeking in on the News Forum. I do find some (even most) of the comments interesting over there, although getting caught up in the fray isn't something I enjoy.

Found this quote and wanted to share it!

"Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." (Mark Twain)

quote:

Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Had to look up whingeing, still don’t understand the difference from whining, but it’s an interesting word.

The difference is subtle, but it is there:

https://www.grammarphobia.com/...hinge-and-whine.html
Though Americans use only one word, “whine,” the British use both: “whining” covers a variety of meanings, including sounds made by people, animals, or inanimate objects, and “whingeing” (also spelled “whinging”) is more specifically for peevish or fretful complaining . The British sometimes use the terms together for emphasis: “Stop your whingeing and whining!”

Have replied to your email.

quote:

Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:Found this quote and wanted to share it!
"Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." (Mark Twain)

Meant to post these when I mentioned Confucius' Analects:.

The strength of a nation derives from the integrity of the home. Confucius
https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/confucius

The bugger beat me to it every time:

The superior man understands what is right; the inferior man understands what will sell.

How prescient can he be???

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Had to look up whingeing, still don’t understand the difference from whining, but it’s an interesting word.

The difference is subtle, but it is there:

https://www.grammarphobia.com/...hinge-and-whine.html
Though Americans use only one word, “whine,” the British use both: “whining” covers a variety of meanings, including sounds made by people, animals, or inanimate objects, and “whingeing” (also spelled “whinging”) is more specifically for peevish or fretful complaining . The British sometimes use the terms together for emphasis: “Stop your whingeing and whining!”

Have replied to your email.

Thanks. I did see a minor difference, and I kinda like your word!

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:

quote:

Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:Found this quote and wanted to share it!
"Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." (Mark Twain)

Meant to post these when I mentioned Confucius' Analects:.

The strength of a nation derives from the integrity of the home. Confucius
https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/confucius

The bugger beat me to it every time:

The superior man understands what is right; the inferior man understands what will sell.

How prescient can he be???

Almost sounds like Comey when talking about integrity.

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
I will not stick to only the canonise books because it is a false base when discussing either pre-Christian Judaism or NT understanding of Christianity.

IIRC did that only in context of that response, as you will see later here.

quote:

Maybe, but I have serious doubts about that. One of the things Barker points out is the condemnation of intertestamental Judaism in Enoch. According to Enoch, "they had lost their way."

Remembering, of course, that when there are two Jews there are three arguments. For me, the Tanach and the Talmud are such a mishmash it is well-nigh impossible for me to get my head around anything they say.

That Chabad.org is a classic. The way I see it, they include what I would term folk-lore. Did you see my post way back quoting Chabad as saying Abram was 3yo when he reached his big decision? What really got me was its version of Abram was virtually identical to the NT story leading up to the birth of Jesus. Only difference was that, unlike Herod, Abram's deliberately unnamed king saw that mysterious star and made sure his astrologers checked out its meaning. That king then led one of the earlier Slaughters of the Innocents, long before the Egyptians were blamed for it. Love to know if this was a later fabrication aimed at downplaying the new-born Christianity.

Moses' story of being floated on the Nile was a direct lift from Sargon the Great's tale. Rather liked the suggestion Sargon created that to make it appear he had risen from humble beginnings.

Doesn't matter to me where the Jews took their stories; have yet to find anything original in any of it.

I'm with you on Harpur and the Egyptian origins.

CB loves him, in part because he so very often kindly confirms what She has been telling me.

Before She bruises another rib: All language about God must of necessity be a metaphor, since he/she (we prefer it) is beyond any literal description. Religion forgets that at its peril.

We could not have said it better ourself, though letter-sounds is more precise.

His glossary has a page on the Mystery Religions which is worth spending time on.

He strengthens our POV in his Symbol, Symbolic, and Symbolism. Even better, he quotes physicist James Jeans: When we try to discuss the ultimate structure of the atom, we are driven to speak in terms of similes, metaphors, and parables.

She is certain you will remember us saying exactly that about Dark Matter/Dark Energy.

(QUOTE)
Will have to review the rest after I have finished my current crochet projects. I'm a bit pressed for time and can only spend my breaks sorting through these posts and peeking in on the News Forum. I do find some (even most) of the comments interesting over there, although getting caught up in the fray isn't something I enjoy.[/QUOTE]

I tried the News Forum. Any recommendations?

JR requested I post this note that I originally posted in News here in your Pub den. So here goes.

quote:

Originally posted by Dixie Chick:
Thanks, I'll try again because I want to help you guys a little.

I have enjoyed discussing things with a few of the Pubs who have joined we Ants despite how disdainful some of you Pubs seem to feel about our forum.

When you arrived you were graciously and earnestly welcomed to do your thing in several scenarios that CJ arranged for you.

And yes, we have a news room. You are welcome here as well. We do at times discuss other things as I'm sure you do.

I had heard, perhaps from Linda and some of you that you all had a problem with trolls at Amazon. We don't have any here, except for Jim Bob who comes every four years for a short visit. And pawn10 who is easy to ignore or eat for lunch. HB not a troll he is "local color," brilliant about some things, crazy about others and scarily perceptive. I say this more as a warning than an explanation.

Man I bet those trolls miss you over there right now! You must have fed them so much they are fat as pigs! You guys never let anything go. Never let anything slide and nothing ever ends.

I had some great thoughts for you but my server let me down and cut me off. So let me just end by saying sometimes people might just be yanking your chain or poking and you have suffered so much trauma over at Amazon that right now your knees are jerking badly.

Dix

Thanks, Dixie.

I don't want to post on that particular thread anymore since I feel like I'm being trolled by HB there.

I will respond to it on this thread though.

Again, thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Dixie Chick:
Thanks, I'll try again because I want to help you guys a little.

I have enjoyed discussing things with a few of the Pubs who have joined we Ants despite how disdainful some of you Pubs seem to feel about our forum.

We certainly appreciate any help you can provide.

I have enjoyed several discussions on the News room, but I don't have a lot of time to spend there.

Maybe you are misreading our attitude concerning Aantares Forum? It IS a little intimidating at first because it quite unlike the Amazon Forum we were accustomed to. Amazon had a couple of features that allowed for easier following of any particular strain of conversation within any particular Subject/Heading within the forum. And we all had been there for years - and we are old - and you know what they say about us old dogs and new tricks

quote:

Dixie:
When you arrived you were graciously and earnestly welcomed to do your thing in several scenarios that CJ arranged for you.

Oh, you cannot know how much we appreciate that! She made it much simpler to find and the setup is wonderful.

quote:

Dixie:
And yes, we have a news room. You are welcome here as well. We do at times discuss other things as I'm sure you do.

I had heard, perhaps from Linda and some of you that you all had a problem with trolls at Amazon. We don't have any here, except for Jim Bob who comes every four years for a short visit. And pawn10 who is easy to ignore or eat for lunch. HB not a troll he is "local color," brilliant about some things, crazy about others and scarily perceptive. I say this more as a warning than an explanation.

We may well be using a different description of troll.

IMHO, a troll is one who follows someone/group around in order to continually confront for the purpose of harassment or divisiveness.

HB and I had had several pleasant meetings of the mind and I was under the impression that things were fine between us. Then he does a 180 on me and started trolling me on that thread. I was nothing less than shocked. It came out of nowhere. I searched back through the posts to see if any of us had said something that would have ticked him off. I simply couldn't find anything.

We learned not to back down on the Amazon thread because if you did, you got ran over. It was never ending. You HAD to stand up and run over them or wear them out, otherwise it continued to infinity.

I so love this forum because there was none of that...until now.

quote:

Dixie:
Man I bet those trolls miss you over there right now! You must have fed them so much they are fat as pigs! You guys never let anything go. Never let anything slide and nothing ever ends.9/QUOTE]
No, Amazon closed their Forum and took it offline.

[QUOTE]Dixie:
I had some great thoughts for you but my server let me down and cut me off. So let me just end by saying sometimes people might just be yanking your chain or poking and you have suffered so much trauma over at Amazon that right now your knees are jerking badly.

Possibly, but it doesn't seem that way to me. I mean, he could have posted a grin at any point...but he took aim at ALL of us and didn't let up. So I'm thinking he has an issue with our whole group and somehow feels threatened by us for some unknown reason. I mean, I pointed out that we hadn't gone proselytizing, at which point he seemed to conjure up some FUTURE threat from us. I dunno, it was just strange to me.

But yeah, I am still shell shocked from the Amazon Forum and I really don't want to have to endure that here - not to mention that I don't have time for it.

And thanks again for posting this here for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan:
I tried the News Forum. Any recommendations?

The topics change according to the news of the day. The top 10-15 topics are usually the active ones and they rarely go on past a page or two.

For future reference, if I find a religious topic that starts to peak my/your/our interest, I may just copy the topic to our Pub and we can take it from there. That little incident over there doesn't sit well with me.

quote:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:

Just for you, mate; another c&p from that thread, my response to Dixie Chick:

Please let me assure you. That was never disdain. All that happened was it took quite a while for some to learn how to work the system here.

Our mob have been together for many years, and have one of the best personal relationships I have ever experienced.

While I like to think it's my mob, the femmes keep insisting they are the ones in control.

Would not wonder if they are contemplating swelling their ranks.

quote:

HB not a troll he is "local color," brilliant about some things, crazy about others and scarily perceptive. I say this more as a warning than an explanation.

In that case, I'd welcome his efforts.

Need to advise him, though, that Aussies are past masters at stirring the possum, and I have the added benefit of lots of practice in Scottish banter, than which there is nothing better.

and you know what they say about us old dogs and new tricks Wink

One of the channels is rerunning New Tricks, with the original cast. The banter makes me feel fully at home. I often wonder how non-Brits get on with it, as most of the banter is straight UK stuff.

quote:

that Aussies are past masters at stirring the possum, and I have the added benefit of lots of practice in Scottish banter,

??? It must come from from the Irish blood
...:)

quote:

Originally posted by yba:

quote:

that Aussies are past masters at stirring the possum, and I have the added benefit of lots of practice in Scottish banter,

??? It must come from from the Irish blood
...:)

You little booger! I was just banging out a text message to you and you pop up on here!

Good to see ya!

quote:

Originally posted by yba:

quote:

that Aussies are past masters at stirring the possum, and I have the added benefit of lots of practice in Scottish banter,

??? It must come from from the Irish blood
...:)

Iirc you aren’t too bad yourself although I recall you often softening you disagreement.

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