Aantares    Aantares BB  Hop To Forum Categories  Amazon Ex-Pats  Hop To Forums  General Discussions    Amazon Mob's Pub & Coffee Shop Part II
      Page: 1 ... 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ... 50

Locked Topic Locked
Go To
Post
Search BB
Notify Me
TOS/Tools/Smilies
Amazon Mob's Pub & Coffee Shop Part II
 Login/Register 
Enthusiast...
Picture of Allan
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
Zoroaster works too! Avesta and Vedas are very similar. The Hindu Sri Yantra and the Buddhist bhavachakra relate to the Jewish Sefirot and Gurdjieff's Enneagram. The Enneagram journal with my papers had a Buddhist editor. He relates all of those things (which inspired me to relate them with math).


You stick with your maths, ICB is sticking with the Hindu Soma and the Zarathustrian Haoma.

Once again we get back to the Greeks. How many of their greatest philosophers were initiated into the Greek Mystery Religions? How can anyone ignore the impact of that?

I add, too, one reason I have read for the deep secrecy for those divine revelations was their extreme simplicity, something our own ASC has bee reinforcing.

We all are One, evolved from the extreme unified simplicity of the singularity which existed before the Big Bang. All we need is the educated use of the correct entheogens, the Hindu Soma and the Zarathustrian Haoma, to set us right. (CB just reminded me that Zarathustra was conceived just after his father and mother shared their entheogen.)

quote:
Łobaczewski adopted the term "ponerology", which is derived from the Greek word poneros, from the branch of theology dealing with the study of evil... Ultimately, each pathocracy is foredoomed because the root of healthy social morality, according to Łobaczewski, is contained in the congenital instinctive infrastructure in the vast majority of the population. While some in the normal population are more susceptible to pathocratic influence, and become its lackeys, the majority instinctively resist.


Very pleased we read on before responding to this. We seem to remember that even Judaism ultimately denies there is any such thing as "evil". Perhaps that is because they say their one and only deity created all that exists, so whatever "evil" he created had to have a good purpose.

By reading on, we gained further confirmation for our bias towards our genetic programming as an evolved social/tribal animal from our bold emphasis.

quote:
Broadly speaking, historians now recognize the existence of four phases in the evolution of astronomy: judicial astrology, zodiacal astrology, horoscopic astrology and scientific astronomy. The first of these phases, judicial astrology, implied a very strong connexion between purposeful celestial bodies and harmful events on earth.


Yet again we see further confirmation of our bias. Those scholars simply do not go back far enough.

We suggest the first interest taken in astronomy may well have been "as above, so below". (Djehuty's Ibis has taken up residence on the roof outside our window, no doubt in order to inspire us further. According to local legend in the Birecik area [now our Northern Turkey], the northern bald ibis was one of the first birds that Noah released from the Ark as a symbol of fertility,[13] wiki)

The Milky Way had order, uniformity, lacking the chaos in the lives of our hunter-gatherer ancestors. They could have reinforced that unity by seeing their very own animals in the shapes of star groupings.

Long before the galaxies and stars became essential to judicial, zodiacal, horoscopic, and scientific astronomy, their importance would have been seen in creating a map for guidance in travel, and an indication of the changes in seasons, knowledge of which was essential to our survival.

quote:
[I]So where did Enoch's Fallen Watchers come from? Was it a reflection of the divisive sectarianism embedded in Jews?
For me it's kind of a mixed metaphor using ancient comet symbolism (fallen angels and giants) to describe Zoroaster-like evil spirits. They really didn't fall; they were evil to begin with.


No need for any of that. Our ancestors, each with their own unique culture, unique deities, would have used these metaphors to tell their stories of victories and losses against other, equally unique, tribes.

"Our deities, our legendary heroes from whom we came, defeated your deities, your legendary heroes."

Have you read Graves" The Greek Myths?

It is all there.

The birds are demanding food and water, so

MTC

My CB insisted I come back to add this: While some in the normal population are more susceptible to pathocratic influence, and become its lackeys, the majority instinctively resist.

She's been looking for exactly that.

For Her, the vast majority are decent people.

So how do we explain the ones who are in control?

The Warrior Gene may be one answer, however we feel there has to be more.

Could it be that, for some as-yet unknown reason, a minority of Alphas put themselves above the tribe they are programmed to protect and advance?

Do their egos insist they are entitled to Power which, of course, includes ££££/$$$$.

That could explain why some 87 families have more power than four billion or so of us plebs.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 3014 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
Never goes away...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
posted Hide Post
Allan Blue,

I found this freebie today. Hopefully this link will get you to it.

https://www.biblicalarchaeolog...e/force-download.php
 
Posts: 10759 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
Here to stay...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
However, we seemed to remember a connection between Homer and the Hittites, which would be a far more reliable source.


I tend to think the Biblical rendition of Hittite Suppiluliuma is related to a modified version of Homer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_of_Troy

quote:
At least three Ancient Greek authors denied that Helen ever went to Troy; instead, they suggested, Helen stayed in Egypt during the duration of the Trojan War. Those three authors are Euripides, Stesichorus, and Herodotus.


Wish there was more raw historical data about Suppiluliuma but the main source (by his son) is quite fragmented.

quote:
You stick with your maths, ICB is sticking with the Hindu Soma and the Zarathustrian Haoma.

It's not an either or thing. The math is exactly the same as how the elements (fire, earth, air, water) are matched to the Zodiac. That certainly does not mean the Zodiac was only used for that. I like the Zodiac as originally a Judicial Astrology coordinate system useful for many things including comet portent tracking.

Soma/Haoma is fine for resetting the autonomic nervous system with a few uses but too much runs into Zoroaster's warning about getting drunk on it or even problems like McKenna's brain tumor. Lots have used mushrooms but few have had Zoroaster's ability to channel with entities about hyperdimensional things (which modern trance channelers and ouija board users can do without Soma/Haoma). Zoroaster/Vedic-like channeling abilities are not something everyone can do with or without Soma/Haoma.

quote:
Once again we get back to the Greeks. How many of their greatest philosophers were initiated into the Greek Mystery Religions? How can anyone ignore the impact of that?

I add, too, one reason I have read for the deep secrecy for those divine revelations was their extreme simplicity, something our own ASC has bee reinforcing.

We all are One...


I think Paul essentially had a mystery religion. As a Herodian he didn't want to rock the boat with the Romans; he wanted Jews and Gentiles together as one else what did happen in 70AD could happen. Behind the scenes Paul was more gnostic Valentinus-like.

quote:
We seem to remember that even Judaism ultimately denies there is any such thing as "evil". Perhaps that is because they say their one and only deity created all that exists, so whatever "evil" he created had to have a good purpose.


Yeah Zoroastrianism had the same idea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurvanism

quote:
Zurvanism is an extinct branch of Zoroastrianism in which the divinity Zurvan is a First Principle (primordial creator deity) who engendered equal-but-opposite twins, Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu... Zurvan was perceived as the god of infinite time and space and was aka ("one", "alone"). Zurvan was portrayed as a transcendental and neutral god, without passion, and one for whom there was no distinction between good or evil.


Modern channeling refers to the Zurvan/Brahman highest level as 7th density. Lower densities, Zoroaster twin-like, can be STS (service to self) or STO (service to others) oriented and the STS path is actually considered to be shorter for us (school of hard knocks-like). STO is in a deep sense considered to be half STS in that if we all serve others, we all get served ourselves.

Choosing STS when we evolve to "Son of Man"/Paul's new body though is not a good thing from our normal low density point of view; it leads to recycling back to primordial matter before climbing back up the seven heavens/densities. So even though staying STS is not a big deal for Zurvan/Brahman/Ein Sof; it's not something we mortals would tend to find attractive.

quote:
Yet again we see further confirmation of our bias. Those scholars simply do not go back far enough.


Comets obviously can go back long before humans (aka dinosaurs). For tens of thousands of years and including the Younger Dryas impact, the Clube and Napier giant comet breaking up works fine:

https://www.sott.net/article/1...herent-Catastrophism

quote:
In 1982, two British astronomers, S. V. M (Victor) Clube and William Napier, published a book entitled The Cosmic Serpent. Clube and Napier suggested that the outer planets occasionally divert giant comets (more than 50 kilometers in diameter) into the inner solar system into short-period orbits...

Clube and Napier identified the progenitor of the Taurid complex as such a giant comet whose injection into a short-period (about 3.3 year) orbit occurred sometime in the last twenty to thirty thousand years.


Going back to Hittite/Hurrian myth finds the most comet-like description for the storm god/monster motif:

https://cosmictusk.com/song-of...courty-impact-event/

quote:
A DESCRIPTION OF THE TEL LEILAN IMPACT EVENT IN A HITTITE MYTH?
THE SONG OF ULLIKUMMI

From E.P. Grondine, 1999

[Guterbock was puzzled (page 55) as what kind of stone (NA)kunkunuzzi was. It is clearly a meteorite-stone, having recieved its name onomatopoetically from the sound of the explosion, kunkun, that impactors make when they hit... “YARD” AND “FURLONG” STAND IN FOR UNKNOWN UNITS]

In one day he shall grow a “yard”;
In one month he shall grow a “furlong”;
The stone which is at his head...

The child’s body (was) made of stone,
of kunkunuzzi...

When the fifthteenth (15th) day came,
The Stone had grown high.
And he stood in the sea on his knees (point)
like a spear-point.
The Stone, he stood out of the water,
and his height was like […],
and the Stone reached from the sea like a garment
up to the “Place of the Belt”.
The Stone, like a […] he was lifted,
And he reached up to the temples and chamber
in the celestial realm...

And the Sun-God began to speak in his own mind:
“What swift God [is standing] in the sea?
His body is not like that of the […] Gods.”...

When the Sun-God of the Celestial Realm saw the Stone,
the Sun-God [crossed] again the horizon for a second time. […u]p he traveled,
and to the Sky-God he went...

And the King of Kummiya set his face,
He set his face upon the dreadful kunkunuzzi-stone,
And he saw the dreadful kunkunuzzi-stone,
and from his anger his […] became changed.

And the Sky-God sat down on the ground,
and his tears flowed forth like streams.
The Sky-God, his eyes tearful, spoke these words:
“Who can endure it any longer, this one’s violence?
And who can fight any longer?
And who can endure it any longer, this one’s fearfulness?”...

And Ishtar, she sang,
And the sea’s (?)
She put a pebble on.

Then out of the sea a great wave rose,
The great wave spoke to Ishtar:
“Who do you sing in front of?...

They shall call forth the thunder-storms:
The rains and winds which break the rocks for ninety “furlongs”, while they cover them for eight hundred “furlongs”. They shall call forth the rains and the winds!

They shall bring out of the sleeping room
the lightning, which strongly flashes...

[DESCRIPTION OF THE GROWTH OF THE BLAST CLOUD. – EPG]

[… The Sky-God] took a stand to fight.
Then he took the battle gear,
and he took the carts,
and he brought the clouds from the Celestial Realm.
And the Sky-God set his face on the kunkunuzzi-stone...

and the Seventy Gods [fell] down into the sea.
[…]

[THE INITIAL IMPACT – EPG]

[…] the kunkunuzzi-stone his body […]
[…]
and he shook the Celestial Realm.
[…] he […]ed
The Celestial Realm […] like an empty garment he […]ed.
And the kunkunuzzi-stone […] became high:
Before […] one thousand nine hundred “leagues”,
[…] “leagues”.
And the kunkunuzzi-stone stood down on the Earth...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ullikummi

quote:
The "song of Ullikummi" was recognized from its first rediscovery as a predecessor of Greek myths in Hesiod. Parallels to the Greek myth of Typhoeus, the ancient antagonist of the thunder-god Zeus, have been elucidated by Walter Burkert


I simply don't see how this sky/thunder/storm god battle against the giant growing stone monster could be anything but an impact event.

quote:
The Milky Way had order, uniformity, lacking the chaos... Long before the galaxies and stars became essential to judicial, zodiacal, horoscopic, and scientific astronomy, their importance would have been seen in creating a map for guidance in travel...


Not an either-or thing. Map is useful for many things including when you do have a chaotic stone monster comet spear point reaching up to the Milky Way belt.

quote:
No need for any of that. Our ancestors, each with their own unique culture, unique deities, would have used these metaphors to tell their stories of victories and losses against other, equally unique, tribes.


No need as long as out of sight, out of mind. But when one of the last "pebbles" from the breaking up giant comet hit Tunguska, those Thunder god with iron birds references of the local clans were invoked again.

quote:
"Our deities, our legendary heroes from whom we came, defeated your deities, your legendary heroes."

Have you read Graves" The Greek Myths?

It is all there.


The ancient Hittite stones and recent Tunguska iron birds are there too. In between you get things like David slinging stones at Goliath, Medusa/Perseus turning adversaries into stones, and Deucalion throwing rocks to repopulate the earth after the flood.

quote:
My CB insisted I come back to add this: While some in the normal population are more susceptible to pathocratic influence, and become its lackeys, the majority instinctively resist.

She's been looking for exactly that.

For Her, the vast majority are decent people.

So how do we explain the ones who are in control?

The Warrior Gene may be one answer, however we feel there has to be more.

Could it be that, for some as-yet unknown reason, a minority of Alphas put themselves above the tribe they are programmed to protect and advance?

Do their egos insist they are entitled to Power which, of course, includes ££££/$$$$.

That could explain why some 87 families have more power than four billion or so of us plebs.


True True unfortunately. Natural disasters tend to end ages and their tyrants. We do need to get things right one of these days though.
 
Posts: 1051 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
Enthusiast...
Picture of Allan
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
Comets obviously can go back long before humans (aka dinosaurs). For tens of thousands of years and including the Younger Dryas impact, the Clube and Napier giant comet breaking up works fine:


I haven't the slightest doubt about the serious impact of meteors (pun intended, after due consideration). However I tend to think that earthquakes and tsunamis have had far more influence on our mythology. One meteor I would like to know more about is the Burckle. Well before the limited time span of the Tanakh, from the map its tsunami would have gone straight up the Persian Gulf, especially if it rebounded off India.

It is dated, but you might enjoy

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/1.../science/14WAVE.html
The current estimate is one impact on the order of a 10-megaton bomb every 1,000 years, not every few thousand years.

You can see why I put a limit on meteor strikes.

Another aspect which, for me, lessens the impact of meteors is the importance placed by our ancestors on the iron they gained from them, long before the Iron Age. We saw in that rare dagger in Tutankhamen's tomb, made from meteor iron.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 3014 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
Never goes away...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
Comets obviously can go back long before humans (aka dinosaurs). For tens of thousands of years and including the Younger Dryas impact, the Clube and Napier giant comet breaking up works fine:


I haven't the slightest doubt about the serious impact of meteors (pun intended, after due consideration). However I tend to think that earthquakes and tsunamis have had far more influence on our mythology. One meteor I would like to know more about is the Burckle. Well before the limited time span of the Tanakh, from the map its tsunami would have gone straight up the Persian Gulf, especially if it rebounded off India.

It is dated, but you might enjoy

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/1.../science/14WAVE.html
The current estimate is one impact on the order of a 10-megaton bomb every 1,000 years, not every few thousand years.

You can see why I put a limit on meteor strikes.

Another aspect which, for me, lessens the impact of meteors is the importance placed by our ancestors on the iron they gained from them, long before the Iron Age. We saw in that rare dagger in Tutankhamen's tomb, made from meteor iron.


Surel a meteor that hit an ocean would cause a tsunami?
 
Posts: 10759 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
This quote sound familiar?


The wide, dark road leads to hell, The narrow to Buddha’s Heaven. —from “The Seventh Princess,”
traditional Korean song for the dead

Bond, Larry. Larry Bond's First Team: Fires of War (p. 166). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.



Btw the book is about in part a Nuclear Treaty with N.Korea. Talk about timing.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bryan j borich
 
Posts: 477 | Location: CA | Mbr Since: 05-02-2017Report This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:

Hyperdimensional Eden could have been remembered by those sent down to our material world but that would be so long ago it would probably require some revealed reminders to keep the ancient story accurate.

The Lucifer legend which Wikipedia does relate to Adam & Eve and thus us is supposedly super ancient though that doesn't mean we still have it in a super accurate form.


The biblical eden story is a little off, some stuff missing, and generally translated too literally, or rather to support a material theology.

As for Lucifer, the hints are all their in the Bible and outside, same for the Satan of the NT. Just a matter of dropping current dogma and digging at the various possibilities.

The interesting major delimna is why did Christianity become the only major religion where the participant didn't need to try improving oneself as part of the doctrine, but that killing someone else on a daily basis was acceptable.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bryan j borich
 
Posts: 477 | Location: CA | Mbr Since: 05-02-2017Report This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

JR: You are mixing apples and oranges. There is no claim of divine revelation regarding Moses and creation nor the flood in the Bible. What people believe doesn't change that fact.


Clearly my pedantry has betrayed me. I was thinking that if God came down personally to reveal to Noah there was a global flood on its way, or revealed personally to Moses how Creation came into being, those would have been divine enough revelations?

So what does qualify as a divine revelation?

JR: Whereas you use the term "devout", I use the term "Hezekiah/Josiah sect." CLEARLY there were Jews who believed in a revelation that showed that there was a rebellion, and that belief aligns them with the older religion and doesn't in any way diminish their devoutness.

What sort of revelation was that, exactly?

Especially given that Tiamat's was the only known rebellion.



You forget Adam's rebellion.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bryan j borich
 
Posts: 477 | Location: CA | Mbr Since: 05-02-2017Report This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Guys,
Received another email from Mary Jean. She has made contact with Steve. She is excited that Steve may be moving close enough to her to visit!


I'd give a thumbs up...but the only finger signals I know how to type indicate something completely different Smile   :)

Say a hi, and miss her.


I'm not sure what happened to Lois trying to get on, I do know she had trouple with the small type, she's apparently using a phone.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bryan j borich
 
Posts: 477 | Location: CA | Mbr Since: 05-02-2017Report This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

JR: You are mixing apples and oranges. There is no claim of divine revelation regarding Moses and creation nor the flood in the Bible. What people believe doesn't change that fact.


Clearly my pedantry has betrayed me. I was thinking that if God came down personally to reveal to Noah there was a global flood on its way, or revealed personally to Moses how Creation came into being, those would have been divine enough revelations?

There is no account given for a visionary experience regarding Noah and the flood, nor Moses and creation.

quote:
So what does qualify as a divine revelation?

A description of the visionary experience.

quote:
JR: Whereas you use the term "devout", I use the term "Hezekiah/Josiah sect." CLEARLY there were Jews who believed in a revelation that showed that there was a rebellion, and that belief aligns them with the older religion and doesn't in any way diminish their devoutness.

Allan: What sort of revelation was that, exactly?

Especially given that Tiamat's was the only known rebellion.

Merkabah/Hekhalot visions.

You absolutely refuse to consider the difficulties of these visions of the infinite being translated in the verbiage of finite humans. First, they must be translated by the recipient's limited understanding and linguistic skills, then into language understandable to the audience, and thirdly into language sufficient to depict the majesty of an otherworldly encounter.

When witnesses of the same accident are queried by the police, their accounts are never exactly the same. How could you possibly expect an accounting of 2 separate, even if identical, Merkabah experiences to be the same?



That's why I say doing an artistic drawing can better represent the story...the 1,000 word concept.

Also, as Heinlein points out the Spirit talks in another language that has to be learned.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bryan j borich
 
Posts: 477 | Location: CA | Mbr Since: 05-02-2017Report This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Glad she sent you an invite too!


Can you imagine it, all of us together?

Mary Jean's neighbours would never get to sleep.


A pineapple upside down cake baked right side up.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bryan j borich
 
Posts: 477 | Location: CA | Mbr Since: 05-02-2017Report This Post
Enthusiast...
Picture of Allan
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Surely a meteor that hit an ocean would cause a tsunami?


Which is why I argue for that.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 3014 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
Here to stay...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
I haven't the slightest doubt about the serious impact of meteors (pun intended, after due consideration). However I tend to think that earthquakes and tsunamis have had far more influence on our mythology. One meteor I would like to know more about is the Burckle. Well before the limited time span of the Tanakh, from the map its tsunami would have gone straight up the Persian Gulf, especially if it rebounded off India.

It is dated, but you might enjoy

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/1.../science/14WAVE.html
The current estimate is one impact on the order of a 10-megaton bomb every 1,000 years, not every few thousand years.

You can see why I put a limit on meteor strikes.

Another aspect which, for me, lessens the impact of meteors is the importance placed by our ancestors on the iron they gained from them, long before the Iron Age. We saw in that rare dagger in Tutankhamen's tomb, made from meteor iron.


Myths can take an idea like Sargon's birth story and repeat it all over the place for many years so I tend to think the Ullikummi myth based on one impact got repeatedly retold over many years in many places even if no one remembered the original inspiring event. Wikipedia mentions it having parallels with later Greek myths. Suspected meteorite rocks can be venerated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

quote:
The stone was venerated at the Kaaba in pre-Islamic pagan times. According to Islamic tradition, it was set intact into the Kaaba's wall by the prophet Muhammad in 605 CE, five years before his first revelation. Since then it has been broken into fragments and is now cemented into a silver frame in the side of the Kaaba. Its physical appearance is that of a fragmented dark rock, polished smooth by the hands of pilgrims. Islamic tradition holds that it fell from heaven as a guide for Adam and Eve to build an altar. It has often been described as a meteorite.


The huge tsunamis resulting from impacts can certainly have their own long lasting myth effects with or without stones (a talking wave was in the Ullikummi myth). Actual impacts aren't even necessary to keep myths alive. Tunguska (1908) didn't have an impact; it just blew up over some clans who invoked their thunder god/iron thunderbirds for it.
 
Posts: 1051 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
Enthusiast...
Picture of Allan
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
The biblical eden story is a little off, some stuff missing, and generally translated too literally, or rather to support a material theology.
As for Lucifer, the hints are all their in the Bible and outside, same for the Satan of the NT. Just a matter of dropping current dogma and digging at the various possibilities.
The interesting major delimna is why did Christianity become the only major religion where the participant didn't need to try improving oneself as part of the doctrine, but that killing someone else on a daily basis was acceptable.


Reality is, of course, that yet again the much-later Jews adopted and adapted a Sumerian story for their own purposes.

The Sumerian version makes more sense. Their deities created we **** sapiens Great Apes to do all the donkey work they had grown tired of doing (the first form of slavery?). We partied so loudly at night we kept the deities awake, so they sent a flood to wipe us out.

As for Lucifer, this was an even later invention, given that ha-satan in God's own Word to his Chosen People was a loyal angel, perhaps a member of God's High Council.

In fact, "Lucifer" was introduced into the Bible by the Christian Saint Jerome and, as we all know, refers to the planet Venus.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 3014 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
Enthusiast...
Picture of Allan
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
You forget Adam's rebellion.


Adam never rebelled.

Instead, like any dutiful husband, he merely did what his wife told him to do.

Eve, of course, was the Jewish version of the Greek Pandora.

Given that the first humans are now said to have evolved some 300,000 years ago, I very much doubt that gardening was one of their occupations.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 3014 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
Here to stay...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
The biblical eden story is a little off, some stuff missing, and generally translated too literally, or rather to support a material theology.
As for Lucifer, the hints are all their in the Bible and outside, same for the Satan of the NT. Just a matter of dropping current dogma and digging at the various possibilities.
The interesting major delimna is why did Christianity become the only major religion where the participant didn't need to try improving oneself as part of the doctrine, but that killing someone else on a daily basis was acceptable.




Reality is, of course, that yet again the much-later Jews adopted and adapted a Sumerian story for their own purposes.

The Sumerian version makes more sense. Their deities created we **** sapiens Great Apes to do all the donkey work they had grown tired of doing (the first form of slavery?). We partied so loudly at night we kept the deities awake, so they sent a flood to wipe us out.

As for Lucifer, this was an even later invention, given that ha-satan in God's own Word to his Chosen People was a loyal angel, perhaps a member of God's High Council.

In fact, "Lucifer" was introduced into the Bible by the Christian Saint Jerome and, as we all know, refers to the planet Venus.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

quote:

"How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: 'Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?"...

In classical mythology, Lucifer ("light-bringer" in Latin), Phosphorus (same meaning in Greek), Eosphoros ("dawn-bringer" in Greek) was a personification of the morning star as a male figure bearing a torch


Looking like a torch is more comet than planet. Cast down to earth is more comet fragment than planet. Shaking the earth is more comet fragment than planet. Venus is a morning star but then so is a comet slinging around the sun (which also tends to break off fragments for meteor showers).

The Isaiah/Enoch Lucifer/fallen angel association with evil results from the huge Zoroaster influence in these two books. As for how Zoroaster may have had comet symbolism; he revealed a sky of stone and fire as an agent of truth against falsehood also the "fire of judicial ordeal, prototype of the fiery torrent of judgement day".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...s_the_agent_of_Truth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amesha_Spenta
 
Posts: 1051 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
Enthusiast...
Picture of Allan
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

JR: You are mixing apples and oranges. There is no claim of divine revelation regarding Moses and creation nor the flood in the Bible. What people believe doesn't change that fact.


Clearly my pedantry has betrayed me. I was thinking that if God came down personally to reveal to Noah there was a global flood on its way, or revealed personally to Moses how Creation came into being, those would have been divine enough revelations?

There is no account given for a visionary experience regarding Noah and the flood, nor Moses and creation.

quote:
So what does qualify as a divine revelation?

A description of the visionary experience.

quote:
JR: Whereas you use the term "devout", I use the term "Hezekiah/Josiah sect." CLEARLY there were Jews who believed in a revelation that showed that there was a rebellion, and that belief aligns them with the older religion and doesn't in any way diminish their devoutness.

Allan: What sort of revelation was that, exactly?

Especially given that Tiamat's was the only known rebellion.

Merkabah/Hekhalot visions.

You absolutely refuse to consider the difficulties of these visions of the infinite being translated in the verbiage of finite humans. First, they must be translated by the recipient's limited understanding and linguistic skills, then into language understandable to the audience, and thirdly into language sufficient to depict the majesty of an otherworldly encounter.

When witnesses of the same accident are queried by the police, their accounts are never exactly the same. How could you possibly expect an accounting of 2 separate, even if identical, Merkabah experiences to be the same?



That's why I say doing an artistic drawing can better represent the story...the 1,000 word concept.

Also, as Heinlein points out the Spirit talks in another language that has to be learned.


Heinlein I can understand because he knows how to use words. Still reckon the 20 years Druids spent learning had more to do with NLP, using linguistics to reframe what the mind interprets.

No idea who came up with the challenge of explaining the Bible to an educated Martian. Can't be done, because we have lost the word-knowledge those Druids, if I am correct, understood very well.

Seems we can't even agree on the definition of what a revelation is.

the divine or supernatural disclosure to humans of something relating to human existence.
"an attempt to reconcile Darwinian theories with biblical revelation"


Does not need to be a vision, words reveal equally well, provided they are understood.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 3014 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
Picture of That JR Thang
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
This quote sound familiar?

The wide, dark road leads to hell, The narrow to Buddha’s Heaven. —from “The Seventh Princess,”
traditional Korean song for the dead

Jesus: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it."

quote:
Bond, Larry. Larry Bond's First Team: Fires of War (p. 166). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Btw the book is about in part a Nuclear Treaty with N.Korea. Talk about timing.

Yeah, talk about timing.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6578 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
Picture of That JR Thang
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Guys,
Received another email from Mary Jean. She has made contact with Steve. She is excited that Steve may be moving close enough to her to visit!


I'd give a thumbs up...but the only finger signals I know how to type indicate something completely different Smile   :)

Say a hi, and miss her.


I'm not sure what happened to Lois trying to get on, I do know she had trouple with the small type, she's apparently using a phone.

Done.

Oh, thumbs up: Thumbs Up-Grin   :tug:

I used to post some from my iPhone, but it's difficult. And even more so after only a couple of posts.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6578 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

JR: You are mixing apples and oranges. There is no claim of divine revelation regarding Moses and creation nor the flood in the Bible. What people believe doesn't change that fact.


Clearly my pedantry has betrayed me. I was thinking that if God came down personally to reveal to Noah there was a global flood on its way, or revealed personally to Moses how Creation came into being, those would have been divine enough revelations?

There is no account given for a visionary experience regarding Noah and the flood, nor Moses and creation.

quote:
So what does qualify as a divine revelation?

A description of the visionary experience.

quote:
JR: Whereas you use the term "devout", I use the term "Hezekiah/Josiah sect." CLEARLY there were Jews who believed in a revelation that showed that there was a rebellion, and that belief aligns them with the older religion and doesn't in any way diminish their devoutness.

Allan: What sort of revelation was that, exactly?

Especially given that Tiamat's was the only known rebellion.

Merkabah/Hekhalot visions.

You absolutely refuse to consider the difficulties of these visions of the infinite being translated in the verbiage of finite humans. First, they must be translated by the recipient's limited understanding and linguistic skills, then into language understandable to the audience, and thirdly into language sufficient to depict the majesty of an otherworldly encounter.

When witnesses of the same accident are queried by the police, their accounts are never exactly the same. How could you possibly expect an accounting of 2 separate, even if identical, Merkabah experiences to be the same?



That's why I say doing an artistic drawing can better represent the story...the 1,000 word concept.

Also, as Heinlein points out the Spirit talks in another language that has to be learned.


Heinlein I can understand because he knows how to use words. Still reckon the 20 years Druids spent learning had more to do with NLP, using linguistics to reframe what the mind interprets.

No idea who came up with the challenge of explaining the Bible to an educated Martian. Can't be done, because we have lost the word-knowledge those Druids, if I am correct, understood very well.

Seems we can't even agree on the definition of what a revelation is.

the divine or supernatural disclosure to humans of something relating to human existence.
"an attempt to reconcile Darwinian theories with biblical revelation"


Does not need to be a vision, words reveal equally well, provided they are understood.



I doubt that Heinlein fully understood what he was writing.....
But you do need to learn another language in effect.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bryan j borich
 
Posts: 477 | Location: CA | Mbr Since: 05-02-2017Report This Post
  Powered by Social Strata       Page: 1 ... 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ... 50 

Locked Topic Locked

    Aantares    Aantares BB  Hop To Forum Categories  Amazon Ex-Pats  Hop To Forums  General Discussions    Amazon Mob's Pub & Coffee Shop Part II

© 2003-2020 Aantares Online LLC. All Rights Reserved.