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Originally posted by Allan:
Seems, though, to put the assorted Bible revelations far outside reality.

Never was any "Fall" before we acquired private property, hence Capitalism.


Well Zoroaster's Angra Mainyu/first man fall of sorts like with Lucifer had lots of comet imagery which could fit with the Wikipedia idea of continent wide historic environmental change being related to tool use 300,000 years ago.

quote:
quote:
At least Churchianity usually allows people not to be in the church if desired but postmodernism/Babel aimed in the direction of no choice aka fascism.[/i]


You have to be kidding.

Try telling the Catharists and Gnostics that.


Well yeah if you go back to the past, you can find the Crusades, Spanish missionaries, witch hunts, etc. I was thinking in the present where not being allowed to leave is more an illegal cult not mainstream thing.
 
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Originally posted by bluelamp:
So it's not the tools that are odd but the pattern of how the tools showed up that is odd. In other words it's like the whole continent already knew how to make the tools but didn't actually need to do it until some kind of historical/environmental change caused them to do it. This change, whatever it was, matches dates with the "fall" according to modern channeling.


I do not understand this "fall".

We've had our ups and downs, empires have risen and fallen, but this is the nature of things.

The fact remains, we are far ahead of where we were even 200 years ago, never mind the 300,000 years go when we started.

quote:
Well you kind of have to do your own research even if it ends up in surprising places like Hittites and Julius Caesar and the Wizard of Oz.


Been researching since I were in three-cornered pants.

While I am completely in tune with Marion Zimmer Bradley's Avalon, have yet to find any civilisation which were anything more than relevantly advanced on other cultures of their times.

http://wermenh.com/MZB/Marion%...0Avalon%20Series.htm

Robert Graves does an excellent job of showing how migrations and invasions were the key to our advancement. I often compare that with the First Nation here; no violent changes in weather as in Europe and Asia, no major tool or weapon differences between tribes in contact, no tens of thousands of years with no need for the drastic changes we experienced elsewhere.

Even when we did arrive here, the gap was not all that great. Only our Guns, Germs, and Steel made the difference.

But in the centuries since...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
Well Zoroaster's Angra Mainyu/first man fall of sorts like with Lucifer had lots of comet imagery which could fit with the Wikipedia idea of continent wide historic environmental change being related to tool use 300,000 years ago.


Lucifer was, is now, and ever will be only Venus. Perhaps you agree with Immanuel Velikovsky?

quote:
Well yeah if you go back to the past, you can find the Crusades, Spanish missionaries, witch hunts, etc. I was thinking in the present where not being allowed to leave is more an illegal cult not mainstream thing.


If you are young enough you may see my prophecy of a rebellion of all our planet's decent people against the far smaller but more powerful non-decent people being fulfilled.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
I do not understand this "fall".

We've had our ups and downs, empires have risen and fallen, but this is the nature of things.

The fact remains, we are far ahead of where we were even 200 years ago, never mind the 300,000 years go when we started.


Learning is what you are supposed to do after a fall though that would include redeveloping Heinlein-like psychic abilities not just crude technological things.

quote:
quote:
Well you kind of have to do your own research even if it ends up in surprising places like Hittites and Julius Caesar and the Wizard of Oz.


Been researching since I were in three-cornered pants.

While I am completely in tune with Marion Zimmer Bradley's Avalon, have yet to find any civilisation which were anything more than relevantly advanced on other cultures of their times.

...

Even when we did arrive here, the gap was not all that great. Only our Guns, Germs, and Steel made the difference.

But in the centuries since...


Well even Julius Caesar was afraid of the Druids. We probably need to eventually work on that Heinlein/Druid-like psychic stuff.
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
Lucifer was, is now, and ever will be only Venus. Perhaps you agree with Immanuel Velikovsky?
Velikovsky had planets running around causing problems but this is more something comets do aka the Clube Napier breaking up over time short period giant comet.

Falling to earth for Lucifer is more comet-like than planet-like too though planets can inherit comet symbolsim even though it doesn't fit. Jupiter was bearded, Mars was a lamp, Mercury was a spear, and Venus was a horseman for 9th century Baghdad and Assyria had Saturn as a nocturnal sun and Rome had Lucifer as a torch.

quote:
If you are young enough you may see my prophecy of a rebellion of all our planet's decent people against the far smaller but more powerful non-decent people being fulfilled.


First decent people need to stop the right vs left fighting among themselves, which is likely what the non-decent people like to see.
 
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Originally posted by bluelamp:
Learning is what you are supposed to do after a fall though that would include redeveloping Heinlein-like psychic abilities not just crude technological things.


That's not how it works in real life. With the exception of China, how many empires have fallen to rise again?

quote:
Well even Julius Caesar was afraid of the Druids. We probably need to eventually work on that Heinlein/Druid-like psychic stuff.


Have not been able to confirm your thoughts on Julius and the Druids. From what I can see, he respected them, not feared them.

Wasn't until Claudius got into Britain that this changed, though according to Pliny the Elder, writing in the 70s CE, it was the emperor Tiberius (who ruled from 14 to 37 CE), who introduced laws banning not only druid practices, but also other native soothsayers and healers, a move which Pliny applauded, believing that it would end human sacrifice in Gaul.[82]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#Julius_Caesar
Although he had first-hand experience of Gaulish people, and therefore likely with druids, Caesar's account has been widely criticized by modern historians as inaccurate. One issue raised by such historians as Fustel de Coulanges[58] was that while Caesar described the druids as a significant power within Gaulish society, he did not mention them even once in his accounts of his Gaulish conquests. Nor did Aulus Hirtius, who continued Caesar's account of the Gallic Wars following Caesar's death. Hutton believed that Caesar had manipulated the idea of the druids so they would appear both civilized (being learned and pious) and barbaric (performing human sacrifice) to Roman readers, thereby representing both "a society worth including in the Roman Empire" and one that required civilizing with Roman rule and values, thus justifying his wars of conquest.[59] Sean Dunham suggested that Caesar had simply taken the Roman religious functions of senators and applied them to the druids.[60] Daphne Nash believed it "not unlikely" that he "greatly exaggerates" both the centralized system of druidic leadership and its connection to Britain.[61]


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2954 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
Falling to earth for Lucifer is more comet-like than planet-like too though planets can inherit comet symbolsim even though it doesn't fit. Jupiter was bearded, Mars was a lamp, Mercury was a spear, and Venus was a horseman for 9th century Baghdad and Assyria had Saturn as a nocturnal sun and Rome had Lucifer as a torch.


Still can't get a hold on your use of Lucifer, which I have long known was nothing more than Jerome's Latin version for the Hebrew for Venus, "light-bringer".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer
As a name for the Devil, the more common meaning in English, "Lucifer" is the rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל‎ in Isaiah (Isaiah 14:12) given in the King James Version of the Bible. The translators of this version took the word from the Latin Vulgate,[4] which translated הֵילֵל by the Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized),[5][6] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".[7]

Highly superstitious, and no doubt uneducated, RC monks in the Middle Ages glommed onto his Latin for their version of the Christian Devil which they were seeing everywhere they looked.

quote:
First decent people need to stop the right vs left fighting among themselves, which is likely what the non-decent people like to see.


Was thinking exactly that is recent weeks. The base of left and right wings is indeed basically decent.

Propaganda rules OK

Took me a long time on Amazon before I was able to understand just why so many in the USA fear Socialism; they haven't a clue what it is, how many of the greatest countries share Democratic Socialist governments.

Had high hopes for Trump's unconventional approach to Russia until he actually came to power.

Ah, well, win some, lose some.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2954 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
That's not how it works in real life. With the exception of China, how many empires have fallen to rise again?


The individuals reorganize into different networks after a fall which is a learning process but yes we obviously need to reorganize in a better way. Natural disasters can tend to (literally) level the playing field but the new reorganizing tends to produce new villains too much.

quote:
Have not been able to confirm your thoughts on Julius and the Druids. From what I can see, he respected them, not feared them... Hutton believed that Caesar had manipulated the idea of the druids so they would appear both civilized (being learned and pious) and barbaric (performing human sacrifice) to Roman readers, thereby representing both "a society worth including in the Roman Empire" and one that required civilizing with Roman rule and values, thus justifying his wars of conquest.


Other researchers certainly don't think Caesar made things up but this was unique for Caesar. He would certainly suppress war powers but for religion he was quite tolerant (Jews loved him). Something about the Druids made Caesar think of them as a war power to be conquered. One can both respect and fear. It's fear in the worry about sense not literally scared sense.
 
Posts: 1051 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
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Originally posted by Allan:
Still can't get a hold on your use of Lucifer, which I have long known was nothing more than Jerome's Latin version for the Hebrew for Venus, "light-bringer"...

Highly superstitious, and no doubt uneducated, RC monks in the Middle Ages glommed onto his Latin for their version of the Christian Devil which they were seeing everywhere they looked.


You have to go back further than Christian; I don't think it's the devil, I think it's us described using "falling star" comet symbolism. 1 Enoch has the best comet symbolism:

http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-18/
http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-87/
http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-88/

quote:
7. I saw the path of the angels...

9. Where burnt, both by day and night, six mountains formed of glorious stones; three towards the east, and three towards the south...

12. I likewise beheld terrestrial fountains, deep in the fiery columns of heaven...

14. And there I beheld seven stars, like great blazing mountains, and like spirits entreating me.

15. Then the angel said, This place, until the consummation of heaven and earth, will be the prison of the stars, and the host of heaven.

16. The stars which roll over fire are those which transgressed the commandment of God before their time arrived; for they came not in their proper season. Therefore was He offended with them, and bound them, until the period of the consummation of their crimes in the secret year...

1. Then I looked at that one of the four white men, who came forth first.

2. He seized the first star which fell down from heaven.

3. And, binding it hand and foot, he cast it into a valley; a valley narrow, deep, stupendous, and gloomy.

4. Then one of them drew his sword, and gave it to the elephants, camels, and asses, who began to strike each other. And the whole earth shook on account of them.

5. And when I looked in the vision, behold, one of those four angels, who came forth, hurled from heaven, collected together, and took all the great stars, whose form partly resembled that of horses; and binding them all hand and foot, cast them into the cavities of the earth.

1. Then one of those four went to the white cows, and taught them a mystery. While the cow was trembling, it was born, and became a man, and fabricated for himself a large ship. In this he dwelt, and three cows dwelt with him in that ship, which covered them.


quote:
Was thinking exactly that is recent weeks. The base of left and right wings is indeed basically decent.

Propaganda rules OK

Took me a long time on Amazon before I was able to understand just why so many in the USA fear Socialism; they haven't a clue what it is, how many of the greatest countries share Democratic Socialist governments.

Had high hopes for Trump's unconventional approach to Russia until he actually came to power.

Ah, well, win some, lose some.


I personally think what Trump wanted to do and what he was allowed to do with Russia are two different things. Something like capitalism at the community level and socialism at the national level would be good.
 
Posts: 1051 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
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Originally posted by bluelamp:
The individuals reorganize into different networks after a fall which is a learning process but yes we obviously need to reorganize in a better way. Natural disasters can tend to (literally) level the playing field but the new reorganizing tends to produce new villains too much.


My reading tells me otherwise. I can't get past The Greek Myths.

Of course Greeks fought Greeks.

Nevertheless, how can anyone deny that, more than 2500 years later, we can't avoid acknowledging our debt? Same goes for the Romans, the Chinese, the Indians. Across the Americas empires rose and fell, but how many there now would live anywhere else?

Gets back to one of my pet peeves.

Untold man-hours are spent today exploring, re-exploring, defending, attacking our religious dependence on the religion of just one culture.

How much better off would we be if we collated the best of all cultures, amalgamating them to suit our brave new world, a planet which has never seen anything like this before, a planet which would be a real-life paradise if only we had the will to make the most of what we already have?

We know where all our problems begin; with those who want power, want not to share with the One.

Why do the decent people, who have the numbers, sit idly by wringing their hands, blaming it all on some fanciful "spiritual" enemy?

We are born with the potential to be decent, so why not focus on that?

quote:


Other researchers certainly don't think Caesar made things up but this was unique for Caesar. He would certainly suppress war powers but for religion he was quite tolerant (Jews loved him). Something about the Druids made Caesar think of them as a war power to be conquered. One can both respect and fear. It's fear in the worry about sense not literally scared sense.
[FLASH_VIDEO] [/FLASH_VIDEO][/QUOTE]

Can you show me where Caesar feared the Druids?

Tiberius and other later Caesars certainly did. All one need to is look at
Suetonius Paulinus on Ynys Môn.

http://resourcesforhistory.com/celtic_druids.htm
In the style of Furies, in robes of deathly black and with dishevelled hair, they brandished their torches; while a circle of Druids, lifting their hands to heaven and showering imprecations, struck the troops with such an awe at the extraordinary spectacle that, as though their limbs were paralysed, they exposed their bodies to wounds without an attempt at movement. Then, reassured by their general, and inciting each other never to flinch before a band of females and fanatics, they charged behind the standards, cut down all who met them, and enveloped the enemy in his own flames.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
We know where all our problems begin; with those who want power, want not to share with the One.

Why do the decent people, who have the numbers, sit idly by wringing their hands, blaming it all on some fanciful "spiritual" enemy?

We are born with the potential to be decent, so why not focus on that?

Those in power probably have too much power for the masses to handle at the moment anyways. The masses also are at the moment unfortunately more likely to fight each other over unimportant left vs right things.

quote:
Can you show me where Caesar feared the Druids?

Tiberius and other later Caesars certainly did.

Without quoting channeling about the only indication is that Julius Caesar did fight a risky war against Gaul which took power away from the Druids in Gaul and transferred the power to Roman rulers. That was the start of things going downhill for the Druids.
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
we make a fatal mistake when we place our spiritual life in one book,


Well, the book says not to (John 5:38 or so), one of those things Christians conveniently ignore. Not to mention Proverbs 8 and other passages.


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bryan j borich
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
Adam lacked caution and strayed from his network (an overly relying on self rebel of sorts) thus Adam fell to matter (cross/body) divorced from Eve (rose/silenced higher consciousness).


Given that the Bible Adam never existed, and that the first "man" probably appeared some 300,000 years ago. why is it necessary to stick with this limited fable?

Clearly, few if any Jews gave any importance to the story. How often do Adam, Eve, and the Serpent re-appear in the Tanakh?

Compare that with their return in the NT after the exile in Babylon?
quote:


Perhaps one can fix the problem in a Heinlein-like way by forming a "Church of All Worlds" out of the existing yet flawed gnostic ideas with improved psychic connection back to Eve and each other and "grokking thou art God" to form a Paul-like "human superior" and avoid "Martians" giving us the doomed fate of the "fifth planet".
This doesn't mean the physical is bad; it just means we are in a learning environment hence we have to learn as you say a new language. If we don't we fall even further into matter (hellish) before rising again towards higher consciousness (heavenly).


You are right, we do indeed need a fresh approach, a new language: the scientific approach and language of neuropsychology.

Given what we have learned over the past 150 years or so, why must we stick with long-outmoded concepts which bear no relationship with life as we know it today?

Didn't someone here recently quote Bishop Spong's daughter saying much the same thing?

If God gave us our brains, why do we not put them to the best use?



Translation of the label Adam = Man or Mankind. Translation of the label Eve = Life, as in Tree of Life or Breath of Life.


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bryan j borich
 
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Originally posted by bluelamp:
Those in power probably have too much power for the masses to handle at the moment anyways.


Can't think off-hand of any major revolution where that has not been the case.

Can you show me where Caesar feared the Druids?

quote:

Without quoting channeling about the only indication is that Julius Caesar did fight a risky war against Gaul which took power away from the Druids in Gaul and transferred the power to Roman rulers. That was the start of things going downhill for the Druids.


Think you'll find Julius used the French Druids as part of his reason for his Gallic Wars.

According to him, the Druids were an intelligent bunch who needed only Roman civilisation to make them worth while.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2954 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
we make a fatal mistake when we place our spiritual life in one book,


Well, the book says not to (John 5:38 or so), one of those things Christians conveniently ignore. Not to mention Proverbs 8 and other passages.


Then there is the little matter of trying to explain why one part of God would order another part of God to tell a third part of God he had to go into the wilderness to be tested by God's violent rebel angel opponent?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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Originally posted by bryan:
Translation of the label Adam = Man or Mankind. Translation of the label Eve = Life, as in Tree of Life or Breath of Life.


Yeah, right.

So humans realised they lived.

And?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
we make a fatal mistake when we place our spiritual life in one book,


Well, the book says not to (John 5:38 or so), one of those things Christians conveniently ignore. Not to mention Proverbs 8 and other passages.


Then there is the little matter of trying to explain why one part of God would order another part of God to tell a third part of God he had to go into the wilderness to be tested by God's violent rebel angel opponent?


You know full well that the concept of the Trinity does allow the parts to be separate, except perhaps by nature. That’s how the posse got to Jesus IS God etc. personally I find this manmade help, a huge hinderance to the concept of God.
 
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Allan, I assume you have been keeping up with our politics? What say you ..?

In starting to think the decline you feared is well on its way.
 
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
You know full well that the concept of the Trinity does allow the parts to be separate, except perhaps by nature. That’s how the posse got to Jesus IS God etc. personally I find this manmade help, a huge hinderance to the concept of God.


Still do not understand why God would send himself to be tested by his enemy.

Unless, of course, this actually came from Judaism.

Be perfectly in order for the Jewish God to send his Mashiach, a human descendant (or reincarnation) of David to be tested by God's very own Adversary to make sure this human is not getting ideas above his station.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2954 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Allan, I assume you have been keeping up with our politics? What say you ..?
I'm starting to think the decline you feared is well on its way.


Apart from China, France, and Russia, I struggle to find any worthwhile politician in today's world.

Do you have any to offer?

I see, too, that Netanyahu's wife could be facing court.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2954 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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