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Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Now, now. You know the Bible is neither a historical nor scientific thesis of "creation" Duck!   :duck:


What's that got to do with anything real????

Love it when you do that.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Oh yeah, ain't the mixing of religion and politics grand!?


Does that mean you are agreeing with me that religion and politics are mere subsets of mythology Smile   :)

I thought we had already settled that! YES!

quote:
You might have missed my later (now amended) addition to David's census:

Takes only a few minutes to realise why that story was manufactured. You'll see what I mean if you read https://www.gotquestions.org/David-census.html

No explanation at all of why God was angry with Israel to begin with, the reason he conned David into creating his census in the first place.

Per that article:
To translate the verse literally, we would say, “There was who moved David against them” or “For one moved David against them.” The translations above have taken this to mean it was either God or His anger that caused David to take the census. But there are other options:

– The unstated thing that moved David to conduct the census [B]could have been David’s own evil imagination[B].


Which is Barker's contention...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
Picture of That JR Thang
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Now, now. You know the Bible is neither a historical nor scientific thesis of "creation" Duck!   :duck:


What's that got to do with anything real????

Love it when you do that.

Smile-Big   :D

Now Dahlin' I have to tuck me in. I didn't get my much needed nap today and I am fading fast.

Good night sweet prince!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
I thought we had already settled that! YES!


Oh, great. Now I can sleep peacefully at night. Enjoy your nap; you've earned it.

quote:

Per that article:
[i]To translate the verse literally, we would say, “There was who moved David against them” or “For one moved David against them.” The translations above have taken this to mean it was either God or His anger that caused David to take the census. But there are other options:

– The unstated thing that moved David to conduct the census could have been David’s own evil imagination[i].

Which is Barker's contention...


So even she missed the point.

It all began after the plague.

The priests manufactured the entire story only because they had to explain why Adonai had caused the plague.

BTW, the claimed 70,000 victims is straight numerology.

My Brooklyn opponent had all sorts of fanciful population figures, including some 30 million Israelites in Egypt before the Exodus, most of whom were wiped out by Adonai because they refused to go with Moses.

Reality is, few of the biggest cities of that time numbered in even hundreds of thousands. At its peak, the entire Roman Empire, north to south, east to west, numbered some 60 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...s_throughout_history
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
So even she missed the point.

It all began after the plague.

The priests manufactured the entire story only because they had to explain why Adonai had caused the plague.

No she didn't.

According to her, the entire story was likely manufactured by Josiah's rewriters. ALL kings prior to Josiah had some sort of black mark against them. With David it was Bathsheba and the census/plague. With Solomon it was his many wives and their gods.

quote:
BTW, the claimed 70,000 victims is straight numerology.

Likely. That the story was probably manufactured hardly means it wasn't used as a teaching point.

quote:
My Brooklyn opponent had all sorts of fanciful population figures, including some 30 million Israelites in Egypt before the Exodus, most of whom were wiped out by Adonai because they refused to go with Moses.

Reality is, few of the biggest cities of that time numbered in even hundreds of thousands. At its peak, the entire Roman Empire, north to south, east to west, numbered some 60 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...s_throughout_history

Smooze was full of it! I remember his post whereby all the Hebrew women in Egypt had 12 children at a time, and got right up from birthing and went back to work!

I remember thinking "Yeah right. That's why Moses had only 1 sister and 1 brother..."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
No she didn't.
According to her, the entire story was likely manufactured by Josiah's rewriters. ALL kings prior to Josiah had some sort of black mark against them. With David it was Bathsheba and the census/plague. With Solomon it was his many wives and their gods.


This, of course, is exactly how I get into trouble Frown   :(

The sole purpose of that story was to explain/justify that plague at that time. Nothing else. What purpose it served later is open to speculation.

That the story was probably manufactured hardly means it wasn't used as a teaching point.

The story was manufactured all right, but it was based on one simple fact, the plague. In the minds of those then, the plague came directly from Adonai, and the priests were forced to find some justification for it.

That fundie site I posted earlier was a perfect example of how all this is abused. It cited a "law" from Exodus 30 which supposedly banned any census. In fact it did not. What their own quote did say was
“When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the LORD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them.”

It then furthers its lie by interpreting that to say: It was up to God to command a census, and if David counted he should only do it at God’s command, receiving a ransom to “atone” for the counting. This is why God was angry again with Israel and is also why David was “conscience-stricken” after he counted Israel. David knew it was wrong and begged God to take away the guilt of his sin (2 Samuel 24:10).

That adds yet another lie. Neither Samuel 2 nor Chronicles says why Adonai was angry in the first place. Samuel clearly says he was angry, and then incited David to conduct his census to give him an excuse to inflict his punishment.

You will have noted I use that exact same argument with the book of Job. Despite its Sumerian origin, it was adapted to get the Jewish priests off the hook. Whether the run-of-the-mill Jews believed in one deity or not, the Babylonians would have made sure they got the Babylonian message -- Marduk had clearly defeated Adonai.

That is why the message of Job is perfectly clear: no matter what Adonai does to his Chosen People, they had to grin and bear it.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
I remember his post whereby all the Hebrew women in Egypt had 12 children at a time, and got right up from birthing and went back to work!
I remember thinking "Yeah right. That's why Moses had only 1 sister and 1 brother..."


Well, Adonai did promise Eve childbirth would not be easy. Even if they did recover immediately.

Those population figures were entirely his own. He did say his rabbi was interested, but said nothing about any agreement.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
No she didn't.
According to her, the entire story was likely manufactured by Josiah's rewriters. ALL kings prior to Josiah had some sort of black mark against them. With David it was Bathsheba and the census/plague. With Solomon it was his many wives and their gods.


This, of course, is exactly how I get into trouble Frown   :(

The sole purpose of that story was to explain/justify that plague at that time. Nothing else. What purpose it served later is open to speculation.

You cannot KNOW that to be a fact. It is entirely possible that it is a mish-mash of several different stories in order to serve several different points and at several different points in time.

Either way, arguing for the sake of arguing is beyond me at this point. I don't worship the Bible as some do, so I just don't get into this stuff anymore.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
Picture of That JR Thang
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
I remember his post whereby all the Hebrew women in Egypt had 12 children at a time, and got right up from birthing and went back to work!
I remember thinking "Yeah right. That's why Moses had only 1 sister and 1 brother..."


Well, Adonai did promise Eve childbirth would not be easy. Even if they did recover immediately.

Those population figures were entirely his own. He did say his rabbi was interested, but said nothing about any agreement.

I'm not sure Adonai made any such promises (but yeah, that is what the text says). And yeah, I'm sure those figures were nothing more than Smooze being Smooze. He was as quick to make stuff up as the liddle trumpeter.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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Sorry, I wasn't looking for an argument.

They knew nothing about disease, germs, so had to find an explanation for that sickness.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Sorry, I wasn't looking for an argument.

They knew nothing about disease, germs, so had to find an explanation for that sickness.

Sorry if I sound like a pissant, but I have simply grown tired of these types of discussions regarding the Bible. I get more than enough of it with my siblings.

But, of course, you are correct. They didn't know anything about diseases and their causes. Everything was dispensed as Adonai saw fit in accordance with their obedience to 'the law' - as the rewriters would have it to appear.

But when you have a man stoned to death for picking up firewood on a sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36), then I've got issues with your god's ideas of justice. Jesus set them straight when in Luke 13:4 he says "What of those eighteen people who were killed when the tower at Siloam fell on them? Do you think they were worse offenders than all the other people?"

IOW, stuff happens. We are simply to keep the right frame of mind; "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" and everything works out in the end.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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Reposted:

Allan,
Saw on the News forum where you asked how to edit your signature. Don't know if you ever got a response, but just in case...

Go to Aantares (NOT Aantares BB), then Personal Zone. In the upper right hand corner of the light blue box you will see underscored: Click To View/Edit Your Public & Private Profile Details. The bottom half of the page is for Public Profile Details under which you will find Signature. Edit the white box to the right.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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Hate to leave you alone, but I've got to crash!

Good night and God bless.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Hate to leave you alone, but I've got to crash!
Good night and God bless.


Sleep fully. See you tomorrow.

My thanks for all.

The birds are calling.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Hate to leave you alone, but I've got to crash!
Good night and God bless.


Sleep fully. See you tomorrow.

My thanks for all.

The birds are calling.

Slept all of 2 1/2 hours Frown   :( Then fell asleep around noon today, but still didn't sleep very well. I'm already yawning and it isn't even 10 PM yet. Gonna be an early night for me.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Reposted:

Allan,
Saw on the News forum where you asked how to edit your signature. Don't know if you ever got a response, but just in case...


Let's see...

Ooooh, yeah.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
No she didn't.
According to her, the entire story was likely manufactured by Josiah's rewriters. ALL kings prior to Josiah had some sort of black mark against them. With David it was Bathsheba and the census/plague. With Solomon it was his many wives and their gods.


This, of course, is exactly how I get into trouble Frown   :(

The sole purpose of that story was to explain/justify that plague at that time. Nothing else. What purpose it served later is open to speculation.

You cannot KNOW that to be a fact. It is entirely possible that it is a mish-mash of several different stories in order to serve several different points and at several different points in time.

Either way, arguing for the sake of arguing is beyond me at this point. I don't worship the Bible as some do, so I just don't get into this stuff anymore.

I vote for this being a common motif in myth/history where warring kings have a passed around woman/wife and violate theoxeny/hospitality and get a Thomas Nagel non-local teleological get rid of the dinosaurs plague in the interest of rebooting the evolution of consciousness. It's more like God's angels allow plagues to play out rather than causing them. They have a Star Trek prime directive-like don't overly interfere with developing species kind of view.
 
Posts: 1149 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
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Originally posted by bluelamp:
I vote for this being a common motif in myth/history where warring kings have a passed around woman/wife and violate theoxeny/hospitality and get a Thomas Nagel non-local teleological get rid of the dinosaurs plague in the interest of rebooting the evolution of consciousness. It's more like God's angels allow plagues to play out rather than causing them. They have a Star Trek prime directive-like don't overly interfere with developing species kind of view.


Welcome back; I've missed your contribution -- and your personality, of course Smile   :)

I prefer to think in terms of those ancient kings who had a bit of hanky-panky in the open fields with the High Priestess at the start of every planting season as their way of reminding the Sky God that he, too, must rain his essential bodily juices on Mother Earth to ensure a fruitful season.

Most of those early politico-religious leaders accepted their responsibilities to their people. Gilgamesh, after all, was Shepherd of the sheepfold of Uruk.

Have a sneaking feeling, too, that his mate Enkidu came from a memory of the Neanderthals who once lived in that region alongside our **** sapiens forebears.

https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/gilgamesh/section2/
The great city of Uruk itself was sometimes called Uruk of the Sheepfold, because of the centrality of Ishtar’s temple, where the king, acting as high priest, would reenact the lovemaking of the goddess and her human lover Tammuz, the shepherd.

Must go, or I'll have nothing to eat and drink tonight.
 
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https://cassiopaea.org/forum/t...5/page-2#post-598518

quote:
quote:
I rejected the idea of Ay being equivalent to Abraham because his tomb has been found in the valley of the kings...

Not necessary to reject him for that reason. He could still be the seed-historical character of the OT story though, in real life, he may not have done all that was claimed for him by the OT writers. Keep in mind that they used characters rather freely, giving them lives and adventures modeled on Greek stories for the most part.

King David, for example: it is known that a David existed, but he was definitely NOT the great king of a united Israel-Judea; he was more likely to have been a "robber baron" type leader. At the most, a sort of "kinglet". But, his name and some of his adventures were preserved, like Robin Hood, and then he was recast as a king and the father of the great Solomon whose name was probably appropriated along with a whole series of attributes and doings.

Interestingly, mixed up with David is the story of Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah the Hittite who was then sent off to war to get killed so David could have her. Again, there is a bit of reflection of the Nefertiti/Ay/Akhenaten story. The seduction of another man's wife, that man being a general (Ay was a general).

Then, there is the Joseph tale, sort of telling it from another side: the wife of Potiphar had the hot for Joseph and tried to seduce HIM, and when he so righteously rejected her advances, she accused him of rape and he was put in prison. One wonders if there is a bit of something to that story as well, or if it is totally taken from other tales current at the time?

Some have conjectured that Ay was the son of Yuya who is thought to have been Syrian. Yuya could also have been partly the model for the Joseph figure. After all, Jews are thought to be simply Syrians on steroids.

Of course, Horemheb must figure in here somehow because it was he who came back and instituted the damnatio memoriae on Ay. Moses, of course, as a spinoff of this little group of dramatis personae also, spent many years away (in Midian), and then came back to save his people. Horemheb spent many years on campaign and then, came back to sort things out.

So, it's all very curious that elements of the Biblical stories appear to be historical references that have been scattered like bread crumbs through the text, one bit given to this character, and another to someone else.

So for me there's kind of a history/myth morphing of Nefertiti, Bathsheba, Sarah, Helen, Henti, etc. in relation to the Zoroastrianism, Atenism, and Judaism monotheism.
 
Posts: 1149 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Reposted:

Allan,
Saw on the News forum where you asked how to edit your signature. Don't know if you ever got a response, but just in case...


Let's see...

Ooooh, yeah.

Cool. Like that.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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