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Originally posted by Allan:
You can't help yourself can ya, mate. Talk about stirring the possum.

In fact, Jacob's fight was a traditional battle for kingship between brothers.

Jacob defeated Esau and became king.

So what's with the limp?

Robert Graves once again, this time The White Goddess; he says Jacob's limp was that of the courting dance of the **** partridge. As king, Jacob's sacred heel had to be kept off the ground, exactly what the partridge does in his strutting mating dance. Those of you who know the Bible may remember another Jewish king whose thigh was supported by a servant.

Remember, when Jacob was born he emerged grasping his twin brother Esau's heel and he was therefore named 'Heel-Catcher'.

So obviously that heel-snatching did not happen at their birth. That tale symbolised the younger brother usurping the true king's role.

..When we read the above link, we see even more evidence of how little most folk understand mythology. Why did so many great cultures build reams of mythology around what we today pay little if any attention to? Hephaestus, the god of metallurgy, sculptors, volcanoes, artisans and technology in general, was not the only legendary hero with a much-storied limp.

Yeah there's Achilles heel symbolism too where if you don't pay close attention to your trailing parts, they can be grabbed by your rival. There's kind of a Hieros Gamos mating parallel to ritual combat against rivals thing going on with the thigh symbolism. I do think Hittite king history ended up in Abraham/Jacob/Moses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0uppiluliuma_I
http://wyattnewsletters.com/exodus/ex22.htm

quote:
These reveal a rivalry within two branches of the royal family up to the Middle Kingdom; a northern branch first based in Zalpa and secondarily Hattusa, and a southern branch based in Kussara (still not found) and the former Assyrian colony of Kanesh (modern Kultepe)...

Hattusili was king, and his sons, brothers, in-laws, family members, and troops were all united... This excerpt from the edict is supposed to illustrate the unification, growth, and prosperity of the Hittites under his rule. It also illustrates the corruption of "the princes" who are believed to be his sons... On Hattusili I's deathbed, he chose his grandson, Mursuli I, as his heir...

When Tudhaliya II died, Tudhaliya III succeeded to the throne. Soon after his accession, however, he was overthrown and succeeded by his younger brother Suppiluliuma... Suppiluliuma then took advantage of the tumultuous reign of the Pharaoh Akhenaten... Unfortunately, many of the Egyptian prisoners carried a plague...

"The Hattian Storm-god, my lord, by his decision even then let my father prevail; he vanquished and smote the foot soldiers and charioteers of the country of Egypt. But when he brought back to the Hatti land the prisoners which they had taken, a plague broke out among the prisoners and they began to die."

Suppiluliuma had two wives. The first wife who served as his queen was a woman named Henti. A badly damaged text from the reign of her son Mursili II implies that Queen Henti may have been banished by her husband to the land of Ahhiyawa. An advantageous marriage with a Babylonian Princess might have resulted in her banishment.
 
Posts: 1053 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
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Originally posted by Allan:
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Oh, and it's KJV 1611 - some printings also known as the "she" Bible. He he he.


I prefer this KJV:

... in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:14), the word "not" in the sentence "Thou shalt not commit adultery" was omitted, thus changing the sentence into "Thou shalt commit adultery". ...

You would, LOL!


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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Allan, I see you poking about and I wish I could stay and chat, but my face is about to smash into this keyboard...

Good night and God bless.


Not to worry, m'dear.

Am taking off shortly, with much to do.

Make the most of your sleep.

Slept like a rock, Sugah, but that isn't necessarily a good thing in this case. Woke up with my right hip out of joint - HEY! weren't we talking about hips out of joint? LOL. Actually think I just slept too soundly and didn't change position throughout the night (hmmm, or was it one of those weird bird dances...), now I'm paying the price.

And Miz Baby is giving me fits because it has been raining all day and she hasn't been able to go outside. Can you imagine what it is going to be like in this house since it is supposed to rain every single day through Sunday. We will both be ready for straight jackets by then!

Gonna have to take one of those muscle relaxers and get my hip back in shape or I will have strangled Miz Baby after a few days of this. Sheesh! Somebody spoiled that little booger rotten!


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But it is even murkier than that because they didn't remove all the pre-Babylonian stuff in many cases - but just tried to weave it into the text and work around it. In many cases, there are 2 sets of documents being woven together, i.e., the entire Genesis 1 & 2 creation story(ies), along with the Genesis 32 story where Jacob "called the place Peniel [face to face], saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared" in addition to the Exodus story where Moses "spoke mouth to mouth [face to face] with the LORD" and Deuteronomy 4:15 "you saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you."


You can't help yourself can ya, mate. Talk about stirring the possum.

In fact, Jacob's fight was a traditional battle for kingship between brothers.

Jacob defeated Esau and became king.

So what's with the limp?

Robert Graves once again, this time The White Goddess; he says Jacob's limp was that of the courting dance of the **** partridge. As king, Jacob's sacred heel had to be kept off the ground, exactly what the partridge does in his strutting mating dance. Those of you who know the Bible may remember another Jewish king whose thigh was supported by a servant.

Remember, when Jacob was born he emerged grasping his twin brother Esau's heel and he was therefore named 'Heel-Catcher'.

So obviously that heel-snatching did not happen at their birth. That tale symbolised the younger brother usurping the true king's role.

Heading towards dinner time, so JR has given me another assignment which will keep me awake just when I desperately need a good night's sleep.

This isn't Graves, but will have to do for now:

http://www.clinicalgaitanalysis.com/art/religion.html
The dance floor at Knossos could also have served as a threshing floor for grain, such as that of Atad mentioned in Genesis, 50: 11. The partridge is related to a limping dance performed at Carmel during Pesach, the Passover Feast, that appears to have been a Canaanite Spring festival which the tribe of Joseph adopted and transformed into a commemoration of their escape from Egypt under Moses....The proverb quoted by Jeremiah: "The partridge gathers young she has not brought forth," means that Jewish men and women were attracted to these alien orgiastic rites. So also the understanding Titian gives us a glimpse of a partridge through the window of the room in which his naked Love-goddess is lasciviously meditating fresh conquests.

My CB is loving this. It is not that long ago She prompted me to post about the wren. Seems the partridge, like the wren, figures in Native American mythology.

That lascivious **** means much more, so that's even less sleep for me

When we read the above link, we see even more evidence of how little most folk understand mythology. Why did so many great cultures build reams of mythology around what we today pay little if any attention to? Hephaestus, the god of metallurgy, sculptors, volcanoes, artisans and technology in general, was not the only legendary hero with a much-storied limp.

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art395.htm
Accounts explaining Hephaestus' immobility (he moved about with the aid of a special chariot he constructed) vary widely. According to the most popular, as an ugly infant he was pushed from Mount Olympus into the sea by either Zeus or Hera, and was injured during the fall, breaking a leg that never healed properly and never learning to walk. Thetis, a sea nymph, found him and raised him as her own son.

Some rather interesting stuff, huh?

I have a book around here somewhere on the ancient mythologies...maybe someday I'll manage to get a round tuit...Smile   :)

Oh, and please tell us what you found on the Censored   :censored: (rooster) partridge.

Now
I'm gonna have to take that muscle relaxer and throw myself at the bed. Otherwise somebody's gonna have to peel me off the wall here shortly.


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
It’s chapter 4. Iirc, the point was that all the authors wrote in Greek, and while some of that influence is there there are clearly things a Jewish community understood and related too. I was intrigued with the concept about including liturgical, but haven’t gotten to his point.

OK, that is more like it.

And, as Barker points out, there was much of the more ancient (First Temple) religion still found in the Alexandria, Egypt Temple - and so there are points of contact with Philo's and John's writings.

BTW, you doin' alright through the storms?

We were expecting some of it here today, but the worst of it stayed far south and north of us. It started getting cloudy about mid-day, but so far just a few pop-ups. That is about to change though... We are expecting considerable rain through Friday or maybe even Saturday, with intermittent storms.


We drove through a milder thunder boomer, but the previous evening there was a serious one without being news worthy. The uprooted trees are east of us as well as most of the lightening.

No thunder boomers here today - just a steady rain.

And now I'm gonna put me in the bed and pull the sheets over me 'ead for a while. See ya'll later.


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Almost like you knew it was coming!


Surprised to see the rabbis agree with me. Doesn't happen often.

You'll have noted the reviewers were hopelessly wrong in their estimate of Jacob's wrestling injury.


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The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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I have a book around here somewhere on the ancient mythologies...maybe someday I'll manage to get a round tuit...Smile   :)


The key lies in understanding the ancients were far closer to nature than we can possibly be today.

Think animism.

For most, that was a primitive concept based on ignorance.

But was it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism
Animism (from Latin anima, "breath, spirit, life")[1][2] is the religious belief that objects, places and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence.[3][4][5][6] Potentially, animism perceives all things—animals, plants, rocks, rivers, weather systems, human handiwork and perhaps even words—as animated and alive. Animism is the world's oldest religion, "Animism predates any form of organized religion and is said to contain the oldest spiritual and supernatural perspective in the world. It dates back to the Paleolithic Age, to a time when... humans roamed the plains hunting and gathering, and communing with the Spirit of Nature."[7]
...Animism encompasses the beliefs that all material phenomena have agency, that there exists no hard and fast distinction between the spiritual and physical (or material) world and that soul or spirit or sentience exists not only in humans, but also in other animals, plants, rocks, geographic features such as mountains or rivers or other entities of the natural environment, including thunder, wind and shadows. Animism thus rejects Cartesian dualism[citation needed]. Animism may further attribute souls to abstract concepts such as words, true names or metaphors in mythology. Some members of the non-tribal world also consider themselves animists (such as author Daniel Quinn, sculptor Lawson Oyekan and many contemporary Pagans).[12]

Can't get any closer to unity than that.

Think totems. In Australia, if one belongs with the Possum totem, eating possums is off-limits. One way of making sure food animals are not wiped out. I remember telling of the young white girl sitting on the edge of a billabong wishing she could wipe out the black ants which were biting her:

"But they's my rellies (relatives)," her young tribal friend bewailed.

quote:
Oh, and please tell us what you found on the Censored   :censored: (rooster) partridge.


My goodness, we are being delicate, aren't we.

Google **** partridge mating dance in mythology and take your pick.

Think, too, on just how close to nature even city Greeks were.

It's when one traces mythologies such as those of the Greeks back to their origin that one begins to understand the unity of the ancients. I think of those observant hunter-gatherers who noticed certain birds and animals disappearing shortly before the cold weather arrived, returning to herald the return of the sun; not hard to imagine them associating those migrations with the weather then, perhaps, deciding the weather was dictated by the birds and animals themselves.

Imagine, too, those in cold countries watching the sun move away and hoping desperately it will return. Cultures all over the world have markers tracing the exact movement of the sun. Sitting out the back feeding the birds has brought that home in a big way; amazing just how far the sun travels.

We take it all for granted, however in an ASC one easily identifies with those ancient people, understands more deeply how they perceived life.

Then think of the three days when it stopped before it came back.

Same three days when the moon "dies", after being virgin, mother, and crone. Will have to try to find a source which dates that moon death back tens of thousands of years.

I remember posting a tribal story about an innocent man accidentally killed in a ritual battle. His mother went to his spirit tree and had to wait three days before his spirit arrived; tree, wooden cross, three days in Hell.

https://www.warpaths2peacepipe...ilt-birds-canoes.htm
Now Partridge thought, "If a boat with two ends sails two ways, why, then, a boat, that is round, will sail every way." So he built a canoe like a nest, perfectly round. And when it was finished, he called together all the birds to watch him put out to sea. And as they looked at the round canoe, they all cried out: "What a wonderful boat! We were not wise enough to think of such a thing!"

Synchronicity yet again. Remember I posted the link to the documentary saying Noah's ark actually was a giant coracle? At least that one worked, but it makes one wonder...

http://www.native-languages.org/legends-partridge.htm
Regardless, none of these three birds are mentioned very often in Native American folklore or traditional stories, except as a food source. When they do appear, partridge are usually portrayed as foolish and gullible birds or as inept spouses and parents. An exception is the Mi'kmaq tragic hero Pulowech (translated as "Partridge" in English, though one of our Mi'kmaq volunteers identified him as a ruffed grouse), who behaves bravely and honorably. The Chippewa tribe also uses the grouse as one of its clan animals; this clan, too, is frequently called the Partridge Clan in older documents (although the Ojibwe name of the clan and its totem, Aagask, refers specifically to a prairie grouse.) The Cherokee also have a Partridge Dance among their tribal dance traditions; the Cherokee word refers to a quail. [/QUOTE]


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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Before I forget again, can someone please do me a favour and see if they can access the wine documentary Red Obsession.

This is not it, but should give some clues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UBu_ho48cQ

The actual documentary is interesting in itself, however it is the financial side and other aspects I'd like to see comments on.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Almost like you knew it was coming!


Surprised to see the rabbis agree with me. Doesn't happen often.

You'll have noted the reviewers were hopelessly wrong in their estimate of Jacob's wrestling injury.


I noticed they didn’t say what you said!
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
Before I forget again, can someone please do me a favour and see if they can access the wine documentary Red Obsession.

This is not it, but should give some clues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UBu_ho48cQ

The actual documentary is interesting in itself, however it is the financial side and other aspects I'd like to see comments on.


Looks like $2.99 to watch on Amazon or VuDu, is that what you were asking? Not sure it’s a documentary and it likely won’t run without a download first.
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
Before I forget again, can someone please do me a favour and see if they can access the wine documentary Red Obsession.

This is not it, but should give some clues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UBu_ho48cQ

The actual documentary is interesting in itself, however it is the financial side and other aspects I'd like to see comments on.


https://ffilms.org/red-obsession-2013/


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I suspect there were survivors were in outposts outside Sundaland to try to restart things but that isn't easy. I would not be surprised if Sundaland like Plato mentioned, was a confederation of different groups (Sumer-like, Celt-like, Polynesian-like, New Guinea aborigine-like). Cataclysms of any kind tend to wipe out a lot of evidence and the scale of the Younger Dryas impacts would especially do so.


The more I chase this up the more I reckon we really have lost the plot.

Our orthodox religious and palaeontological experts don't want to embarrass themselves in front of their peers, so they pretend contradicting evidence does not exist.

The deeper I dig into this, with all my maverick sources, the more I am willing to accept there may have been earlier, long-lost, civilisations.

If Trump and Netanyahu have their way, we may well find ourselves in the same situation.

Even though we have our information in books and on the Internet, these will go in the conflagration.

What do the survivors do then?

They will remember today, but imagine them in that future trying to tell their grandchildren they once sailed the ocean in iron ships, travelled in aeroplanes all over the world, drove around in their internal-combustion cars.

Yeah, right, Granddad; best you give up that ganja.

quote:
... If you trace the religion, history, and social group back to their roots, you could end up with three very different looking paths.


Why so?

What gets me is when I trace mythologies back to their sources and see how cultures all over the world, in their own way, say virtually the same things.

Seems around 50,000 years ago is accepted, for now, as the era when we matured, started thinking abstractly, began creating what, even today, is seen as genuine art.

We need to remember just how much time those ancestors had on their hands. A few hours hunter-gathering, then how does one fill in time?

By creating stories then, later, creating mythological stories with clear messages instructing us on how we are to behave in a way that ensures the tribe will progress, stories which help us to explain the world we live in.

If only Chantal Jègues-Wolkiewiez had been able to raise the funds to see if she was right about those France-Spain cave painters actually were studying astronomy.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
https://ffilms.org/red-obsession-2013/


I thank you. Looking forward to sharing all your thoughts.

Off to buy my beer.


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The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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We need to remember just how much time those ancestors had on their hands. A few hours hunter-gathering, then how does one fill in time?


You’re kidding? At least my education never led me to assume our ancestors had much time on their hands. Hunting could take days or weeks, even once there were groups. Perhaps a lot of waiting as there is in deer season here, but one stil must be alert to the area around them while filling time.

As for the gathers, I can’t imagine that much time to fill either. It takes a lot of fruits and vegetables to make a meal. And if one has figured out how to store them, or gone on to working with grasses/grains there’s work to be done with those.

I just don’t see our distant relatives needing to fill time but rather spending time finding food and eating and sleeping. The timing of our becoming communal is warped in our history books, but it seems to me that we came to being communal before being a distinct species. That means we should have been splitting the work needed to survive which implies there was too much to do alone!
 
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... If you trace the religion, history, and social group back to their roots, you could end up with three very different looking paths.


Why so?

What gets me is when I trace mythologies back to their sources and see how cultures all over the world, in their own way, say virtually the same things.

...

If only Chantal Jègues-Wolkiewiez had been able to raise the funds to see if she was right about those France-Spain cave painters actually were studying astronomy.


A few Tunguska-like blasts wiping out your towers, etc. will certainly get you looking up at the sky proactively. Combine the Josephus winds with the Central American thunder knocking down towers and it's much like the Thunderbird myths Tunguska locals related to the event.

As for the three paths: Hebrew religion tends to get back towards Noah/Atlantis via Zoroaster; Hebrew history (for me) tends to get back towards Noah/Atalantis via Hittite Kings; and the Hebrew social group tends to get back towards Noah/Atlantis via nomadic groups:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

quote:
The biblical word "Hebrew", like Habiru, denotes a social category, not an ethnic group.[15] Since the discovery of the 2nd millennium BCE inscriptions mentioning the Habiru, there have been many theories linking these to the Hebrews of the Bible, but these are now thought by many scholars to have no foundation.[16] Most modern scholars see the 'Apiru/Habiru as potentially one element in an early Israel composed of many different peoples, including nomadic Shasu, the biblical Midianites, Kenites and Amalakites, runaway slaves from Egypt, and displaced peasants and pastoralists.


More Babel from Wikipedia:

quote:
Enmerkar of Uruk is building a massive ziggurat in Eridu and demands a tribute of precious materials from Aratta for its construction, at one point reciting an incantation imploring the god Enki to restore (or in Kramer's translation, to disrupt) the linguistic unity of the inhabited regions — named as Shubur, Hamazi, Sumer, Uri-ki (Akkad), and the Martu land, "the whole universe, the well-guarded people — may they all address Enlil together in a single language."


This Sumerian version talks about the language unity in terms of addressing Enlil so I tend to think it's more a spiritual unity missing rather than a human to human speaking one and the missing unity is there before construction of the tower and building the tower relates to restoring/disrupting it.
 
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On sale today,

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KFU6RN4?tag=ebbdaily-20


Pets are more than companions. The animals we share our lives with are channels to another world. Documentation exists that proves animals do indeed possess a sixth sense. Discover the mysterious and fantastic revelations about dogs who trace their masters across vast distances; dogs who read minds; dolphins as super beings; conversations between people and animals; the strange friendship between Native Americans and rattlesnakes; animals who reside in pyramids; the German shepherd who taught meditation; the amazing ability of animals to think and reason; and much more that will forever change the way you look at animals.


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bryan j borich
 
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:

Yeah, and it's been a couple of years since I have been involved in it, so I'm a little rusty on the particulars at this time. But ultimately, Israel is not a place, it is a people whose name is a message:


The tricky part is returning to the land of your fathers. Which fathers makes a huge difference.

Well yeah. And...was the text changed at some point...?

And did God not give them the land in which he sowed them...? Remember, they were to become "many nations" (a nation and a company of nations).



Yes, I know. As I think I understand it, but haven't really checked in detail, it seems Abraham was indirectly a father to all humanity through Lot.


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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
John is not to be, nor can it be taken literally and readily make sense. It is based on Jewishness that was readily understood when it was written. Just read the part about logo, again. I’m coming to the problems of literalism and why it fails.

I placed it in my Amazon cart, but I hope he doesn't say things like "It is based on Jewishness" 'cause Miz Barker and I will take great exception to that!

You see, according to Barker's thesis (which is based on considerable research by the Society for Old Testament Study), John's Gospel is based in the PRE-Jewish religion (prior to the Northern Kingdom of Israel's exile and prior to the Hezekiah/Josiah reforms). IOW, the "Jewish religion" (post-Babylonian exile) is a combination of those reforms and a mixture of Babylonian concepts.

But it is even murkier than that because they didn't remove all the pre-Babylonian stuff in many cases - but just tried to weave it into the text and work around it. In many cases, there are 2 sets of documents being woven together, i.e., the entire Genesis 1 & 2 creation story(ies), along with the Genesis 32 story where Jacob "called the place Peniel [face to face], saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared" in addition to the Exodus story where Moses "spoke mouth to mouth [face to face] with the LORD" and Deuteronomy 4:15 "you saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you."

The Masorete rabbis had to do some real fancy footwork to dance to that tune! In most cases they tied themselves in knots. But then, they lean very much into literalism too, which causes its own set of difficulties.


Spong's 4th gospel is worth a read for different viewpoints.


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I thank you. Looking forward to sharing all your thoughts.

Hmmm, was still a bit woozy from the muscle relaxers when I was watching, but viewing wine as "art" is just so messed up, IMHO. To pay $50,000 for a bottle of consumable "art" goes beyond any measure of sense to me. That is not to say that there isn't an art to making fine wines, but to view the product itself as art is where I take issue, especially since much depends on the weather for which the artists can take no credit.

Investing in wine production makes sense to me but bottled wine as an investment just blows my mind. It's not like a painting or statue that can be admired for centuries. I mean, it HAS to be consumed in order to be appreciated!

That China has determined to get in on the production of fine red wines will likely bring the prices back to some measure of affordability, but it could also saturate the market with more wine than purchase power. And then the bottom will fall out and the bubble will pop again.

And then there is that global warming issue to be dealt with. Read somewhere recently that within the next generation hops, coffee and cocoa will have become a thing of the past for lack of proper climate conditions. Boy, will that be a day to go down in infamy! And no wine by which to comfort yourself...

doomsday


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6585 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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Originally posted by bryan:
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
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Originally posted by bryan:
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:

Yeah, and it's been a couple of years since I have been involved in it, so I'm a little rusty on the particulars at this time. But ultimately, Israel is not a place, it is a people whose name is a message:


The tricky part is returning to the land of your fathers. Which fathers makes a huge difference.

Well yeah. And...was the text changed at some point...?

And did God not give them the land in which he sowed them...? Remember, they were to become "many nations" (a nation and a company of nations).


Yes, I know. As I think I understand it, but haven't really checked in detail, it seems Abraham was indirectly a father to all humanity through Lot.

Nah, 'twas a spaceship full of interplanetary travelers Smile   :)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6585 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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