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Constant...
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
As long as there is someone left behind the ground will still need to be covered, but I agree I’m tired of not moving myself forward!

I think you and I have moved passed all that...but maybe our dear ol' Allan hasn't just yet...

Think we should throw him a rope and drag to higher ground?
Well Allan has the right concepts. He has the Hindu Brahman which is the Jewish Ein Sof aka the idea that when God emanates from heaven to our universe, He is different.

Allan in our universe has the generic aka ecumenical Divine Council idea though he doesn't seem to take it as something to have fellowship with in our universe (prophecy/channeling/visions/dreams) even though he's into the "Dreamtime" realm. The Divine council has a Judge and defense council (unselfish angels devoted to others) and prosecutors (selfish angels devoted to working against others).

Then there's us the defendants and we do want to unite antlike as one unselfishly so that we in the future are more defense council than prosecutors (in my view they are us in the future).

Though we humans may not in prophecy communicate directly with the Brahman/Ein Sof as He is in heaven; our universe does have a way to draw us towards Him via our thoughts/prayers.

I think we all agree the us vs them churchianity crowd is not uniting like ants aka they are leaning more devoted against others prosecutors than devoted towards others defense council.
 
Posts: 900 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
As long as there is someone left behind the ground will still need to be covered, but I agree I’m tired of not moving myself forward!

I think you and I have moved passed all that...but maybe our dear ol' Allan hasn't just yet...

Think we should throw him a rope and drag to higher ground?
Well Allan has the right concepts. He has the Hindu Brahman which is the Jewish Ein Sof aka the idea that when God emanates from heaven to our universe, He is different.

God is a HE?

Hmmm...my spirit discerns no specific gender...although 'Father' feels rather comfortable to me. Yet I've had just a wee bit more interaction with 'Mother'. But somehow they seem to be meshed - and yet separate?

quote:
Allan in our universe has the generic aka ecumenical Divine Council idea though he doesn't seem to take it as something to have fellowship with in our universe (prophecy/channeling/visions/dreams) even though he's into the "Dreamtime" realm. The Divine council has a Judge and defense council (unselfish angels devoted to others) and prosecutors (selfish angels devoted to working against others).

Then there's us the defendants and we do want to unite antlike as one unselfishly so that we in the future are more defense council than prosecutors (in my view they are us in the future).

Though we humans may not in prophecy communicate directly with the Brahman/Ein Sof as He is in heaven; our universe does have a way to draw us towards Him via our thoughts/prayers.

OK, this somehow seems to make some sense to me, although I'm not sure exactly why. The current concept I'm working under is that God is universal, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, that heaven is a spiritual realm, angels/messengers monitor more than interfere (although interference does seem possible). I do have some vague 'images' of a divine council, but I have no fix on who the players are, nor exactly what their role is. Still trying to figure out if they can, or do, cross the spirit-material barrier.

quote:
I think we all agree the us vs them churchianity crowd is not uniting like ants aka they are leaning more devoted against others prosecutors than devoted towards others defense council.

Yeah, I'm becoming more and more uncomfortable with that disunity thing. It's really starting to tear at me.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Re He

The singular non gender specific pronoun is it or they! Have you got any idea how well They would translate when talking about God. ROTF   :rotf:
 
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Picture of Reed N D Dark
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
As long as there is someone left behind the ground will still need to be covered, but I agree I’m tired of not moving myself forward!

I think you and I have moved passed all that...but maybe our dear ol' Allan hasn't just yet...

Think we should throw him a rope and drag to higher ground?


I think he is running parallel, but with a different perspective or language that ends in the same place. Two roads, but not divergent.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Re He

The singular non gender specific pronoun is it or they! Have you got any idea how well They would translate when talking about God. ROTF   :rotf:

Yet Deity is translated as Godhead several times in some of the older English translations, and Elohim is translated as God. It is but through much mental gymnastics that we bring either of them down to a singular, gender specific, He.

And then you have the feminine El Shaddai and Wisdom...

So, the question is, should we be using a singular, gender specific, word for the concept of Deity?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
As long as there is someone left behind the ground will still need to be covered, but I agree I’m tired of not moving myself forward!

I think you and I have moved passed all that...but maybe our dear ol' Allan hasn't just yet...

Think we should throw him a rope and drag to higher ground?


I think he is running parallel, but with a different perspective or language that ends in the same place. Two roads, but not divergent.

I think it's the way he goes at the Bible. Neither you nor I are literalists. Neither you nor I have bought into the churchianity theological version. I want him to start speaking to us with that in mind. Otherwise we will remain stuck at the posse level of discussion and they ain't here!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Chronic...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Re He

The singular non gender specific pronoun is it or they! Have you got any idea how well They would translate when talking about God. ROTF   :rotf:

Yet Deity is translated as Godhead several times in some of the older English translations, and Elohim is translated as God. It is but through much mental gymnastics that we bring either of them down to a singular, gender specific, He.

And then you have the feminine El Shaddai and Wisdom...

So, the question is, should we be using a singular, gender specific, word for the concept of Deity?

Yeah, gender refers to the reproductive organs of a biological organism. An entity that is not one of those doesn't have a gender.
 
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Constant...
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
God is a HE?

Hmmm...my spirit discerns no specific gender...although 'Father' feels rather comfortable to me. Yet I've had just a wee bit more interaction with 'Mother'. But somehow they seem to be meshed - and yet separate?
English doesn't have a good neutral word (it seems too thing-like) and for the Ein Sof/Judge neutral would be accurate but a particular channeling can kind of pretend gender (for fun responses like it's not nice to fool Mother Cassiopaea for my favorite modern channeling).

quote:
OK, this somehow seems to make some sense to me, although I'm not sure exactly why. The current concept I'm working under is that God is universal, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, that heaven is a spiritual realm, angels/messengers monitor more than interfere (although interference does seem possible). I do have some vague 'images' of a divine council, but I have no fix on who the players are, nor exactly what their role is. Still trying to figure out if they can, or do, cross the spirit-material barrier.
In modern channeling the judge(s) would be just spiritual channeling beings but they can affect the material but more for hints just like they do via channeling. The defense council/prosecutors would be variably physical aka able to be physical like us but more like a standing wave of particles in their native Edenic realm. The prosecutors in particular do interfere though it's mostly subtle mind games at this point in time.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
I think you and I have moved passed all that...but maybe our dear ol' Allan hasn't just yet...
Think we should throw him a rope and drag to higher ground?


Been wondering just how to address this from a few posts back.

As you know, my prime concern is my failure to communicate. No matter what variations I try, it all ends up the same.

No one here or elsewhere has ever taken me up on my assertion that we are all paying heavily for our Eurocentric Judaeo-Christianised culture, especially when we see so many, whether believers or not, who insist all humans are born flawed.

That is unadulterated financially convenient bovine excreta, created by our Alphas with only one purpose, to avoid the responsibility of ensuring all new-born humans will achieve their full potentials.

My culture taught me all are innocent unless proven guilty. I'm sticking with that, though I take it further; Stalin and Hitler were undeniably guilty for what they did, but who was guilty of creating those two? Their violently abusive alcoholic fathers?

One reason I go along with my version of the Deus Otiosus is that places the full responsibility for all our behaviours back on our own shoulders where it belongs.

Got more to say after you all respond, however I will take up this point:

I think it's the way he goes at the Bible. Neither you nor I are literalists. Neither you nor I have bought into the churchianity theological version. I want him to start speaking to us with that in mind. Otherwise we will remain stuck at the posse level of discussion and they ain't here!

Why on earth would anyone think I class you with the posse?

The only question is, where do you draw the line?

I know where I do.

I do not doubt the Bible's real value, especially for those who need this support, solace, purpose in life.

That does not change the simple fact the Tanakh is essentially a political document based totally on earlier mythologies.

Nor does it change the fact Christianity would never have achieved the power it had had it not been for Constantine.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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Picture of Reed N D Dark
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
As long as there is someone left behind the ground will still need to be covered, but I agree I’m tired of not moving myself forward!

I think you and I have moved passed all that...but maybe our dear ol' Allan hasn't just yet...

Think we should throw him a rope and drag to higher ground?


I think he is running parallel, but with a different perspective or language that ends in the same place. Two roads, but not divergent.

I think it's the way he goes at the Bible. Neither you nor I are literalists. Neither you nor I have bought into the churchianity theological version. I want him to start speaking to us with that in mind. Otherwise we will remain stuck at the posse level of discussion and they ain't here!


I’m beginning to think he’s still fighting his own demons from childhood, although since I’m reading the god delusion I can see how other words are also considered just as much of a problem.
 
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Picture of Reed N D Dark
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quote:
Originally posted by Henry J:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Re He

The singular non gender specific pronoun is it or they! Have you got any idea how well They would translate when talking about God. ROTF   :rotf:

Yet Deity is translated as Godhead several times in some of the older English translations, and Elohim is translated as God. It is but through much mental gymnastics that we bring either of them down to a singular, gender specific, He.

And then you have the feminine El Shaddai and Wisdom...

So, the question is, should we be using a singular, gender specific, word for the concept of Deity?

Yeah, gender refers to the reproductive organs of a biological organism. An entity that is not one of those doesn't have a gender.


Except, of course in other languages where both pencil and window have gender!
 
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Picture of Reed N D Dark
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Re He

The singular non gender specific pronoun is it or they! Have you got any idea how well They would translate when talking about God. ROTF   :rotf:

Yet Deity is translated as Godhead several times in some of the older English translations, and Elohim is translated as God. It is but through much mental gymnastics that we bring either of them down to a singular, gender specific, He.

And then you have the feminine El Shaddai and Wisdom...

So, the question is, should we be using a singular, gender specific, word for the concept of Deity?


Godhead is also used in several statements of faith or descriptions of the Trinity.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
I’m beginning to think he’s still fighting his own demons from childhood, although since I’m reading the god delusion I can see how other words are also considered just as much of a problem.


Not even close. Country miles don't come into this.

I had an idyllic childhood, loving and fully supportive parents, siblings I could get along with. I see this as a major reason for my decades of creating self-confidence in my young footballers, along with some 15 years trying to undo the damage their parents and the system did to high school and college students.

I have no demons, not even metaphorical ones.

Sure I've had problems, including some life-recreating ones I'd rather not have had. Still to recover from the suicide of one really nice young lass, a student I was just getting to know. She was intelligent, a thinker, but could not cope with what others had done to her.

But there has never, ever, yet been anything I could not cope with.

Tempting fate there, of course Smile-Big   :D but my long line of superstitions is restricted to the purposes they serve. You should see me talking to the poker machines, or waiting for my *Lotto draws. Then there's my personal relationship with my ageing V8 Fairlane Ghia, which I bought in defiance of a strict instruction from my ex's lawyer.

In passing, reading The God Delusion pretty well convinced me that, while he has a genuine scientific concern about the ban on teaching evolution in the classroom, Dawkins has serious emotional issues here. Promised myself I'll go back to check my first impression that he cowardly dodged one serious issue which confirmed this for me.

*Having real fun with that one. Thinking slightly about numerology one night, I decided for the fun of it to watch a televised Lotto draw. Happens three nights a week while watching UK dramas. Hardly a draw goes by now when I can't make significant connections between the draw number and the numbers drawn.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
OK, this somehow seems to make some sense to me, although I'm not sure exactly why. The current concept I'm working under is that God is universal, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, that heaven is a spiritual realm, angels/messengers monitor more than interfere (although interference does seem possible). I do have some vague 'images' of a divine council, but I have no fix on who the players are, nor exactly what their role is. Still trying to figure out if they can, or do, cross the spirit-material barrier.


That is one area where we do indeed differ.

Nothing in my lifetime's broad and eclectic reading permits me to accept mythology's angels, devils, demons etc as anything other than the best, most logical, hypotheses our intelligent but knowledge-limited distant forefathers could come up with. I know, too, few accept the power and influence of entheogens on our thinking, but yet again my reading, usually with *authors demonised and trivialised by orthodoxy in religion and science, gives me no option to accept, for now anyway, that all we have -- unquestionably -- is the influence of chemistry, physics, and electricity on our individual genetically programmed material brains.

Wasn't kidding when I said that until neuropsychology sorts this out we are all working in the dark.

What is so impossible to accept about that?

*As you know, Robert Graves was formative in my thinking. He made no big deal of it, however in both his The Greek Myths and The White Goddess he does mention the importance of entheogens, specifically Amanita muscaria in one instance.

Reckon Spock would be fascinated by the orthodox rejection of entheogens, though I rather suspect that, like me, he would put much of it down to religious opposition and the power-hungry Big Pharma.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Re He
The singular non gender specific pronoun is it or they! Have you got any idea how well They would translate when talking about God. ROTF   :rotf:


Imagine, too, if readers understood the vital importance of playing with words.

What I see happening now is an increasing number of authors doing just that. They examine why a deity was created, then, just as the Greeks and Romans did, they look elsewhere for similar concepts. Time and again, different cultural words are expressing the same concepts. Our brains, much as we prefer to think otherwise, are extremely limited at this stage in our evolution.

The further back these researchers go, the more they reinforce that much of today's religion comes in large part from a culturally miseducated lack of understanding of what our forefathers actually meant when they created their oral mythologies.

Reading Wise Women of the Dreamtime is well worth the minor effort required. The mythology creators knew exactly what they were doing as members of the oldest living culture in the world. This is one culture with, until recent centuries, very little contact with alien cultures, something a part of life in Eurasia. In other (playful) words, uncontaminated.

I'm not talking here about playing games; instead, I'm talking about the educated use of words to convey information only the initiated can recognise (something bluelamp will relate to).

How often have you read about the entirely different levels of Bible understanding between the initiated and the ordinary believers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_play
Word play is quite common in oral cultures as a method of reinforcing meaning . Examples of text-based (orthographic) word play are found in languages with or without alphabet-based scripts; for example, see homophonic puns in Mandarin Chinese.

Still reckon the 20 years the Druids are said to have spent studying their role included something very similar to NLP reframing.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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Imagine, too, if readers understood the vital importance of playing with words.


A good pun is its own reword!
 
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Originally posted by Henry J:
Yeah, gender refers to the reproductive organs of a biological organism. An entity that is not one of those doesn't have a gender.

Necessity being the mother of invention, maybe it's time we invent an English gender neutral singular pronoun suitable for a deity. Or we could just use the one we have: Themself?

Would take a little getting used to, but we've been there before. I mean, we used to use the pronoun he as a generic pronoun...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
I’m beginning to think he’s still fighting his own demons from childhood, although since I’m reading the god delusion I can see how other words are also considered just as much of a problem.

Hmmm, that's not what it feels like to me. I'm thinking more along the lines of 'stuck in a rut': he has his litany of issues and just keeps playing them over and over again.

But maybe that comes with regularly discussing the same topic for a decade... Not something I'm accustomed to.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Godhead is also used in several statements of faith or descriptions of the Trinity.

True that.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Been wondering just how to address this from a few posts back.

As you know, my prime concern is my failure to communicate. No matter what variations I try, it all ends up the same.

Communication doesn't seem to be the issue here. I think it's more than that. Like maybe you anticipate that we will come up with the solution(s) for all these religious problems and draw the masses to it? Why else are we covering the same issues all the time? Waiting for that Ah Ha moment?

There are already people working on the solution. People like Barker, Ruhl, Graves, plus a whole host of others. They've got centuries of junk to unload.

quote:
No one here or elsewhere has ever taken me up on my assertion that we are all paying heavily for our Eurocentric Judaeo-Christianised culture, especially when we see so many, whether believers or not, who insist all humans are born flawed.

That is unadulterated financially convenient bovine excreta, created by our Alphas with only one purpose, to avoid the responsibility of ensuring all new-born humans will achieve their full potentials.

Once again, you are asking me to answer for something I do not believe! So let me be clear: I do NOT believe that we are born flawed.

That is nothing more than, to use your term, financially convenient bovine excreta concocted to keep the little people coming back to the church whereby they may continue to be fleeced. And the more financial potential their parishioners attain, the more they can be fleeced. So I have to disagree with your notion that it is to avoid responsibility toward new-born's potential.

Do notice that in the NT there is absolutely no mention of a tithing, and yet most churches fully expect their parishioners to pay tithe in addition to an offering. However, only offering is mentioned in the NT; the tithe is an OT concept meant to provide income to the entire Levitical priesthood. IOW, most people don't understand the concept of Testament - or that it means the same as Covenant, therefore they do not understand that the New replaced the Old for those who agree to become Christians under the New Covenant.

Most don't know that the word church means called out ones, they think it only refers to the building or denomination in which they worship, for crying out loud!

Now, back to what I believe. Most people believe in things they do not understand. If they would but take the time to actually read the Bible for what it actually says, to include the meaning of unfamiliar words, and then read the writings of the early Church Fathers, they would cease to suffer the the doctrines and dogmas concocted by the fleecers.

I believe that we are all necessarily self-centered/selfish in our early years (a baby is the center of its own universe). We have to be trained to look outward to the needs of others as we become more capable of satisfying our own needs. IOW, by the time we are 3-4 years old, training children to share should have been started. I readily recall how my older brother, younger sister, and myself were weaned off the bottle. Mom took all three of us out to a tree in our front lawn and pointed up the the squirrels, telling us they were hungry. She asked us if we would leave some of our milk in the bottles and leave it for the squirrels before we took our afternoon nap. We all agreed, and placed our bottles at the base of the tree. When we woke up, the bottles were gone. The squirrels had taken them to their nests for the little ones. We were all three weaned at the same time; older brother 3 1/2, me 2 1/2, and little sis 1 1/2 yo. We watched every day to see if the mama squirrel would bring the babies down for us to see. We were not disappointed. Cute little boogers they were!

Most children can be very generous when they think they are helping someone else. I've seen a few who put most adults to shame. And a little training is all it takes. Giving and sharing feels good to most of us.

quote:
I think it's the way he goes at the Bible. Neither you nor I are literalists. Neither you nor I have bought into the churchianity theological version. I want him to start speaking to us with that in mind. Otherwise we will remain stuck at the posse level of discussion and they ain't here!

Why on earth would anyone think I class you with the posse?

Because you keep trying to cover the same ground - over and over again. Things Reed nor I don't even come close to believing. Things the posse did believe.

quote:
The only question is, where do you draw the line?

I know where I do.

I do not doubt the Bible's real value, especially for those who need this support, solace, purpose in life.

That does not change the simple fact the Tanakh is essentially a political document based totally on earlier mythologies.

Nor does it change the fact Christianity would never have achieved the power it had had it not been for Constantine.

Quite frankly, the OT has little value to me in my spiritual walk. It presented quite a mystery to me until I started asking those hard questions that no one could - or would - answer. Unitl I found Margaret Barker. Once she cleared up the mystery, I've put it in its place - as background to how Christianity came about; about how corruption turned a mystical religion into a legalistic one for the purpose of segregation from the surrounding cultures. The NT shows how it was taken back to the mystical version and the walls of segregation broken down.

What you keep talking about is the OT/Judaism and NT/Christianity that was hijacked by politics and became corrupted. Those are NOT my religion. The hijacked Christianity (churchianity) IS the POSSE's religion.

IOW Allan, both Reed and I agree with you regarding the corruption. How many different ways do you need to hear us agree with you on that point? I am so ready to move on!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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