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The Mob's Pub & Coffee Shop Part III
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If you have any posts from the previous iteration please move them to this one and continue on.


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
If you have any posts from the previous iteration please move them to this one and continue on.


Soon.
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
OK, this somehow seems to make some sense to me, although I'm not sure exactly why. The current concept I'm working under is that God is universal, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, that heaven is a spiritual realm, angels/messengers monitor more than interfere (although interference does seem possible). I do have some vague 'images' of a divine council, but I have no fix on who the players are, nor exactly what their role is. Still trying to figure out if they can, or do, cross the spirit-material barrier.


That is one area where we do indeed differ.

Nothing in my lifetime's broad and eclectic reading permits me to accept mythology's angels, devils, demons etc as anything other than the best, most logical, hypotheses our intelligent but knowledge-limited distant forefathers could come up with. I know, too, few accept the power and influence of entheogens on our thinking, but yet again my reading, usually with *authors demonised and trivialised by orthodoxy in religion and science, gives me no option to accept, for now anyway, that all we have -- unquestionably -- is the influence of chemistry, physics, and electricity on our individual genetically programmed material brains.

Wasn't kidding when I said that until neuropsychology sorts this out we are all working in the dark.

What is so impossible to accept about that?

I'm not relying on just what I've read. I'm leaning on what I've perceived spiritually. I don't need science to authorize nor validate that perception. It's simply there.

And while it seems that you prefer to believe entheogens generate these foggy perceptions, I'm more inclined to believe they simply open a door allowing us to see/perceive the other side, since that is the way it seemed to me.

quote:
*As you know, Robert Graves was formative in my thinking. He made no big deal of it, however in both his The Greek Myths and The White Goddess he does mention the importance of entheogens, specifically Amanita muscaria in one instance.

Reckon Spock would be fascinated by the orthodox rejection of entheogens, though I rather suspect that, like me, he would put much of it down to religious opposition and the power-hungry Big Pharma.

OK, we've been here before. What exactly do you want me to do with this since I can neither confirm nor deny the importance of entheogens, being that I hadn't taken any when I had my episodes, and since it's possible that some people have a natural supply?


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
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Once again, you are asking me to answer for something I do not believe! So let me be clear: I do NOT believe that we are born flawed.



I remember being faced with the concept, in government class, about whether one believed man was basically good or bad. The answer to that question was reflected in the laws of tribe. I struggled with it, at first, because I couldn’t reconcile what I had been taught about sinners and our laws basically assume man is good. The problem with locks only keep honest men honest took a while to recognize and conclude men would thus have to be basically good. Then what to do with the sinner stuff! That isn’t really a flaw except perhaps in character or training. At any rate that was all in the muddle of the old beliefs, of others, weren’t working and likely never would, at least for me!

If man is flawed does that mean God makes junk! And homosexuality is a flaw, and not design?

Seems that many who call themselves Christian have never learned that the word 'sin' means simply to 'miss the mark'.

I could be all wrong about this, but it seems to me that all 'sin' begins with selfishness. "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" seems to validate that perception.

And as I've stated before, I've never found anything in the Bible that even remotely states that anyone having sinned would be tortured in the fires of hell for all eternity.

I mean, even in Genesis it states that "In the DAY you eat of it, you will DIE." Not only is there no threat of a fiery hell, the 'day' lasts over 930 years! HellllllllLoooooooooooooo!


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
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Once again, you are asking me to answer for something I do not believe! So let me be clear: I do NOT believe that we are born flawed.



I remember being faced with the concept, in government class, about whether one believed man was basically good or bad. The answer to that question was reflected in the laws of tribe. I struggled with it, at first, because I couldn’t reconcile what I had been taught about sinners and our laws basically assume man is good. The problem with locks only keep honest men honest took a while to recognize and conclude men would thus have to be basically good. Then what to do with the sinner stuff! That isn’t really a flaw except perhaps in character or training. At any rate that was all in the muddle of the old beliefs, of others, weren’t working and likely never would, at least for me!

If man is flawed does that mean God makes junk! And homosexuality is a flaw, and not design?

Seems that many who call themselves Christian have never learned that the word 'sin' means simply to 'miss the mark'.

I could be all wrong about this, but it seems to me that all 'sin' begins with selfishness. "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" seems to validate that perception.

And as I've stated before, I've never found anything in the Bible that even remotely states that anyone having sinned would be tortured in the fires of hell for all eternity.

I mean, even in Genesis it states that "In the DAY you eat of it, you will DIE." Not only is there no threat of a fiery hell, the 'day' lasts over 930 years! HellllllllLoooooooooooooo!


I learned the second go round that sin is estrangement from God and ones self. That gets me to about the same place you are describing.
 
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Once again, you are asking me to answer for something I do not believe! So let me be clear: I do NOT believe that we are born flawed.

I've no idea why you have to keep repeating this. I know, and have acknowledged repeatedly that I accept what you tell me. Perhaps you somehow confused my Eurocentric Judaeo-Christianised culture with your Churchianity? I did, however, make sure I included "especially when we see so many, whether believers or not, who insist all humans are born flawed.

No, I don't think I'm confused - more likely just being unclear.

First, the way I see it, your Eurocentric Judaeo-Christianised culture was born from Churchianity - NOT Christianity. It's almost impossible not to come in contact with them where Churchianity is prevalent. And the adherents most certainly are sprinkled throughout education and government (remember, JIG's husband was a school superintendent, and Mike Pence is VP of the USA).

Second, REAL Christianity changes the person within. They become less and less selfish and welcome opportunities to be useful and helpful to others. When that change happens, it almost literally washes over you. Total paradigm shift in your worldview. You suddenly realize you are One with God and humanity! We fully understand that kind of inner change cannot be forced via the law or bully pulpit. So yeah, unbelievers pick it up from their friends, extended families, associates, etc. I did...right up until I read the Bible and the writings of the Early Church Fathers. Go ahead - ask a pastor how sin can pass through DNA. LOL!   :lol:

quote:
That is nothing more than, to use your term, financially convenient bovine excreta concocted to keep the little people coming back to the church whereby they may continue to be fleeced. And the more financial potential their parishioners attain, the more they can be fleeced. So I have to disagree with your notion that it is to avoid responsibility toward new-born's potential.

Why do you say that? I'm not in the least bit interested in what people pay to their churches. Indeed, it is none of my business. Instead, I am interested in the tax money the politicians fleece from their plebeian public.

You should be interested in what people pay to their churches. They fund much of their political influence from it. More next under...

But it's more than that. I also disagree with your notion that it was created by our Alphas with only one purpose, to avoid the responsibility of ensuring all new-born humans will achieve their full potentials. The way I see it, they do want their parishioners to attain full financial potential, regardless of whether they attain full spiritual potential. More money for their coffers. But they don't really want them to be too smart - because smarta$$e$ tend to ask too many hard questions.

quote:
That, along with events such as our latest Prime Minister, an Evangelical Christian, who has caused a ruckus by saying Australia should consider transferring its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem in support of the Zionist claim that Jerusalem is their capital, despite the fact that the status of Jerusalem is disputed in both international law and diplomatic practice, with both the Israelis and Palestinians claiming Jerusalem as their capital city.

Yeah, those damned end-timers/born agains/posse types are going to be the death of us yet. Told you a couple of years ago about one of our megachurch/TV evangelicals going on about raising money to send parisioners to law school with the intention of getting them into high places within the government in order to take us back to being a "Christian Nation." So they use much those tithes and donations to send brainwashed kids to law school, not to mention sending lobbists against LBGT/Planned Parenthood/Abortion, etc. to Wash, DC to further their cause. You see, those posse-type end-timers actually want to disturb the fragile peace in Jerusalem in hope of bringing on their end-times scenario. So skin off their noses, they suppose, because they believe they will have been raptured up, riding the clouds on white horses with Jesus, and secured a spot whereby they can look down from the balconies of heaven on the Battle of Armageddon.

quote:
Are you not aware of the connection between the powers that be and the standard of education they provide?

This is an issue I have been researching for much of my life. You surely must have seen my references to the popular conception of Conspiracy Theory and the actual fact that few of our young people are provided with the education they need and deserve?

Don't even get me started. I have been with you all the way on that one. I'm quite sure we've discussed how little the inner-city kids of this nation graduate high school with. They can barely read and write! Sometimes they read and speak as if English is their second language. Several of my younger brothers and sisters can barely read the Bible, which has been determined to be written on the 12th grade level.

quote:

Quite frankly, the OT has little value to me in my spiritual walk. It presented quite a mystery to me until I started asking those hard questions that no one could - or would - answer.

So, experiencing exactly the same thing I am experiencing you persisted, just as I do. What, then, is the difference between us?

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Splain please?

And now I absolutely must go to bed. My back and eyes are weary. Good night sweet prince!


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by Allan:

Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Hmmm, that's not what it feels like to me. I'm thinking more along the lines of 'stuck in a rut': he has his litany of issues and just keeps playing them over and over again.
But maybe that comes with regularly discussing the same topic for a decade... Not something I'm accustomed to.



One reason you may think I am stuck in a rut is, as I keep saying, it seems I am not communicating effectively. Instead, it just may be a sheer lack of interest on your part which prevents you from responding to my questions. Others do, which makes all the difference to me. I do not doubt that some, at least, of my search will seem trivial to other posters. However, I do have sound grounds for the fields of research I follow. One reason is I do want to get back to my volunteer tutoring, and have a long way to go to learn what I need. It does work for some, as there have been students who told me they see themselves in a far more positive light, many passing exams and moving on successfully.

Allan, Dahlin', you are not lacking in communication skills. However, since you have come from a very different background than I, there are times when I'm sure I'm not following how you have gotten from points A through D and arrived at your conclusion, but I always read whatever it is that you present. And sometimes I even ponder it. You see, what's lost is usually in those little details that are so clear to us that we presume others are just as aware of them as we are. Happens to me all the time.

And yes, there are times when I chose not to reply. Sometimes because I have nothing to add, at others, because I've already said all that I have to say on the subject, even if it was 6 years ago that I had my say. I simply don't have time to beat dead horses.


quote:
Fortunately for me, there are many who do ask questions, their answers very often putting an entirely different light on important issues.

Take, as one example, those Wise men from the East who visited the young Jesus.

Why, exactly, did they do that?

What did they see in the sky which, as we know, no one in Jerusalem, including Herod's staff astrologers, saw?

Now this is a NEW direction! And I like it!!!

Have not delved deeply into it but seems to me that there could be a couple of reasons why the Wise Men were depicted as from the East.

1) We know that the Persians and Babylonians were deep into astrology, just as Israel/Judah had once been. Have a feeling (but no historical confirmation) that Jerusalem's astrologers didn't return from Babylon with the others, or maybe they were some of the ones Hezekiah and Josiah dispensed with. So it could have been meant to serve as a clue to the underlying trail back to the older (pre-Josiah) Davidic religion.

2) It seems that incense and precious metals were common gifts made to kings. Isaiah mentions them in Isaiah 60:6 Herds of camels will cover your land, young camels of Midian and Ephah. And all from Sheba will come, bearing gold and incense and proclaiming the praise of the Lord.

3) Herod's astrologers would have been searching the skies under Herod's direction and messiah may not have been on his radar at the time?

quote:
Did the wealth they gave Jesus' parents have anything to do with them going to Egypt?

And why Egypt?


The Book of Matthew is the one where Jesus is portrayed as "fulfilling prophecy." In several places it states, "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet".

Then, Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." Followed by Matthew 2:15 ...where he stayed until the death of Herod. This fulfilled what the Lord had spoken through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my Son."

quote:
Given Egypt was under Roman domination, just as Babylon was, why couldn't Herod simply send his troops to Egypt and eliminate this grave political threat?

Just as some firmly believe the Sanhedrin was able to send its hitmen to eliminate followers of Jesus in "Damascus".

Would Herod have considered him a threat so long as he was in Egypt (IF, he was literally in Egypt)? Remember, most of the post-Babylon Jews who went to Egypt, stayed there because they disagreed with the Josiah religious reforms. Alexandria had a large population of Jews.

quote:
Soon after the visit by the Magi, an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream telling him to flee to Egypt with Mary and the infant Jesus since King Herod would seek the child to kill him.

An angel?

Or instructions from the Magi?

Same difference? Angel/Messenger.

But I wouldn't discount a possible dream/vision. They do happen.

quote:
Was it really because Herod would kill Jesus, or was there a deeper, more political, reason for their going to Egypt?

Some seem puzzled by my insistence that religion and politics can not be separated. You do see Churchianity, however I do wonder just how close you see that relationship.

My churchianity is politically corrupted Christianity. You can see it happen by reading the Early Church Fathers. The early popes were most certainly politically connected. Just google "papal appointment".

However, I disagree with "can not be separated." They most certainly can be. Trouble is, when you have a large population under any particular religion, politicians evidently easily succumbed to the overwhelming temptation to use it as a tool towards their own political ends. Additionally, when you have the clergy all too eager to use their influence in the political arena, you've got yourself the kind of mess you see between the evangelicals and politics in the USA today. They've sold their soul to the devil for a little dark power in order to hold a bit sway over middle-East policy for the purpose of usering in their "end-times" scenario before the clock runs out on their timetable, because when "this generation" dies out, their idiot theology dies with it.

quote:
I was brought up in a different culture, take an interest in different things.

Synchronicitously, SBS is running the BBC's Elizabeth 1's Secret Agents.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09c6q1w

Having been brought up celebrating Guy Fawkes Day, I knew a little about the background.

Remember, remember,
the 5th of November,
the Gunpowder treason, and plot.

However, the exact involvement of Catholicism and Henry Tudor's Protestantism, especially the father and son team William and Robert Cecil, was fascinating to learn.

Theirs was the first fully professional spy network, undercover agents infiltrating Catholic strongholds, highly efficient communication systems for the time, code-breakers, the lot.

The BBC's scriptwriters clearly saw no separation of Church and State, religion and politics. When all went well for the Catholic freedom fighters/traitors they saw this as proof that God was on their side.

Catholic Spain also played a huge role in this essentially British politico-religious machinations. Had done at the very least from the time the Roman Pope, faced with not just the family conflict between the English and Spanish Crowns, but with the Reformation and then Henry VIII's breakaway from Rome. It was, in fact, James VI who, despite English protests, created Great Britain.

How much of the Bible that believers see as God-given truth is in fact clearly nothing more than political propaganda?

Will have to get back to this when I have more time. I'm running against the clock to get Mary Jean's afghan completed, washed, dried, and mailed by the end of the week. Feeling like a one-armed paper hanger...

Do wish you could manage to keep these to a bit narrower focus Duck!   :duck:


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Don't know if it is good news or bad, but I finally found out how to get here.

Reed, before I forget again for the umpteenth-plus time, you may be interested in seeing if you can access our SBS. Copyright may make it impossible.

You may remember my mentioning their program on The Ghan , the train which takes the long haul from Adelaide in the deep south to Darwin in the far north-west.

SBS makes no bones about its reception, saying some viewers reckon it deserved the highest TV award, while others insist it was a far better soporific than any prescription sleeping pill. They even dubbed the new series Slow Summer .

I've watched a couple, one a sea voyage to Darwin ( Kimberley Cruise ), the next an 87-mile canal trip, Kennet and Avon Canal . Hard to believe, but not one word was spoken during the entire two hours, the only sound the slapping of the water on the barge bow, with intermittent bird cries and the very occasional barking of dogs as people strolled along the bridle path. No idea how slow the barge was moving in actual mph, but cyclists travelling in the same direction easily left it behind. It does, however, flash up little screeds recording the history dating back to ‎1723.

Wouldn't have thought it was my cup of tea but, helped after the first hour by my ASC, I'm glad I did watch it. Given the dreadful things humans are doing to humans in this world, for two hours this was an experience of absolute peace and utter tranquillity.

Given your interest in travel...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
No, I don't think I'm confused - more likely just being unclear.
Allan, Dahlin', you are not lacking in communication skills. However, since you have come from a very different background than I, there are times when I'm sure I'm not following how you have gotten from points A through D and arrived at your conclusion, but I always read whatever it is that you present.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDSPwexlyTo

Oh, my Eliza.

You've done it.

It's been a cultural and historical gap between us, and you have now bridged it.

Under your guidance I shall start again.

Will leave my other posts where they are, and take up all the great points you have identified here.

Taking a break to watch the amazingly eternally adorable Audrey Hepburn.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1590 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
No, I don't think I'm confused - more likely just being unclear.
Allan, Dahlin', you are not lacking in communication skills. However, since you have come from a very different background than I, there are times when I'm sure I'm not following how you have gotten from points A through D and arrived at your conclusion, but I always read whatever it is that you present.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDSPwexlyTo

Oh, my Eliza.

You've done it.

It's been a cultural and historical gap between us, and you have now bridged it.

Under your guidance I shall start again.

Will leave my other posts where they are, and take up all the great points you have identified here.

Taking a break to watch the amazingly eternally adorable Audrey Hepburn.

Sheesh, I'm glad we got that straightened out!

I'll be waiting.

Just don't overwhelm me all at once. I really am busy.

Like me some Audrey Hepburn too. Been a long time since I've watched her though.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Just don't overwhelm me all at once. I really am busy.


OK.

Being a caring type of bloke, I'll just toss this in:

It's easy enough to describe how simple I see humans as being. Take just a few sentences.

Would take volumes, though, to explain and justify that simplicity.

Remembering we are but evolved social/tribal animals, and looking back to the estimated 50,000 years ago when our cultures changed radically, why can't we just go back to that start and begin again, taking into account all we have learned?

Can't verify it quickly, but did see many years ago I might belong to the Mouse totem.

Don't associate this with:

Wee, sleekit, cowrin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a pannic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an' chase thee,
Wi' murd'ring pattle!

To a Mouse -- Robert Burns

Sleekit I might be, but tim'rous? No.

But I do go along with his empathy with a fellow creature:

I'm truly sorry man's dominion,
Has broken nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An' fellow-mortal!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_a_Mouse

Have no problem with this:

People with the mouse totem have a gift for paying attention to the minutest of details in everything they do.
https://www.spirit-animals.com/mouse-symbolism/

Questions, questions, questions.

For convenience, I usually class people as Alphas or followers on that Bell curve. However, the Dunedin Study says there are five major personality types. Given what we already know through behavioural psychology and DNA studies, plus what we are beginning to learn from neuropsychology, it should not be all that difficult to design education systems each enabling those individual types to achieve their full potentials.
https://theforeveryears.wordpr...irsteen-mclay-knopp/

Give all our ancient Totem names a new and fancy modern alteration, and educate our young as they should be educated.

quote:
Like me some Audrey Hepburn too. Been a long time since I've watched her though.


If you followed that link through, you'd have seen the scene between Eliza and Professor Higgins, when they start to see each other properly.

Setting aside the love interest, and eliminating the typically English social distinction between the penniless flower-girl and the university professor, I found it easy to swap places with them.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1590 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Just don't overwhelm me all at once. I really am busy.


OK.

Being a caring type of bloke, I'll just toss this in:

It's easy enough to describe how simple I see humans as being. Take just a few sentences.

Would take volumes, though, to explain and justify that simplicity.

Remembering we are but evolved social/tribal animals, and looking back to the estimated 50,000 years ago when our cultures changed radically, why can't we just go back to that start and begin again, taking into account all we have learned?

1) What brought about this radical change?

2) Can we really ever go back?

IMHO, we no longer live as tribes. With world travel and global economy, tribes and cultures have been mixed and mangled beyond going back. The better way might be to mindfully determine where it is we intend to go, and then determine the best way to get there.

quote:
Can't verify it quickly, but did see many years ago I might belong to the Mouse totem.

Don't associate this with:

Wee, sleekit, cowrin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a pannic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an' chase thee,
Wi' murd'ring pattle!

To a Mouse -- Robert Burns

Sleekit I might be, but tim'rous? No.

But I do go along with his empathy with a fellow creature:

I'm truly sorry man's dominion,
Has broken nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An' fellow-mortal!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_a_Mouse

Have no problem with this:

People with the mouse totem have a gift for paying attention to the minutest of details in everything they do.
https://www.spirit-animals.com/mouse-symbolism/

Questions, questions, questions.

For convenience, I usually class people as Alphas or followers on that Bell curve. However, the Dunedin Study says there are five major personality types. Given what we already know through behavioural psychology and DNA studies, plus what we are beginning to learn from neuropsychology, it should not be all that difficult to design education systems each enabling those individual types to achieve their full potentials.
https://theforeveryears.wordpr...irsteen-mclay-knopp/

Give all our ancient Totem names a new and fancy modern alteration, and educate our young as they should be educated.

Well, on this we most certainly agree; education is the most logical place to start. Determine the learning style of the individual students, and then fit the teaching styles to the learning styles. Simple.

quote:
quote:
Like me some Audrey Hepburn too. Been a long time since I've watched her though.


If you followed that link through, you'd have seen the scene between Eliza and Professor Higgins, when they start to see each other properly.

Setting aside the love interest, and eliminating the typically English social distinction between the penniless flower-girl and the university professor, I found it easy to swap places with them.

I grew up much like Eliza; poor and in a household of uneducated parents. I had the will and bigger dreams for myself than to remain in that station. Never felt inferior, but certainly less skilled and experienced. So I set about remedying that because I wanted to live a life that mattered. Getting by was never going to be enough.

Must say, I really don't get people who are content to remain in ignorance and poverty anymore than I get those who spend their lives gathering and hoarding more wealth than they will ever possibly need.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Kept thinking about your post while putting the finishing touches on my afghan.

Consider that the USA, in roughly 250 years, went from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle to megacities. From tightly knit family-groups living in huts and tents to living hundreds of miles from their families connected by highways, trains, air planes, phones, and internet. From indigenous Indian to melting pot. From simple local food supply to world cuisines. From bow and arrow to nuclear bombs. From horseback to space travel.

There are few pure-bloods left of any particular ethnic group. There are few isolated cultures remaining. Most anyone on any continent can interact with anyone from another via the internet or global phone. Those with the means can easily travel from one continent to another.

IOW, we have evolved well past tribal/social animals. There is no going back that I can see. We HAVE to move forward. But I do think we need to find a way to manage it rather than running at it helter-skelter.


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 4134 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tell me, how many of your school chums do you currently pal around with?

How many of your extended family members (aunts, uncles, cousins) do you see and communicate with on a regular basis?

How many of your work associates do you still associate with since you retired?

IOW, people used to live amongst the same people in the same community all their lives. That is no longer the case.

I have absolutely no interaction with any of my school chums.

Haven't seen any of the family members from my dad's side since he died over 40 years ago, with the exception of 1 cousin that I saw maybe 30 years ago. All except 1 of my close family members live more than 130 miles, some several hundred, and some as much as 2,000 miles away.

Saw a couple of my work associates a few times the first year after I retired. None since because my retirement coincided with the HQ move from Ft. McPherson, GA to Ft. Bragg, NC. Exchange Christmas Cards with 1 lady I worked with who now lives in Myrtle Beach, SC. That's it.

I'm on speaking terms with 3 of my neighbors, none of whom I have much in common with except that we live in the same neighborhood.

IOW, there is no tribe...


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 4134 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tribes are kind of just more fluid now. Family/friends, church, work, Internet forums, etc. can all be multiple tribes for various individuals.
 
Posts: 900 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
Tribes are kind of just more fluid now. Family/friends, church, work, Internet forums, etc. can all be multiple tribes for various individuals.

I get that part. It's that fluid part that washes away the required cohesiveness in Allan's tribal scenario.

I went to 4 different schools while in grades 1-6, 2 different ones while in 7-9, but only 1 in 10-12 and college.

I've lived in 12 different cities with multiple addresses in several of them. Worked in 6 different cities, the longest in Atlanta while working for DOD, which has massive turnovers due to military rotation and civilian promotions/job changes. Only 3 of the people who went to our church lived in Atlanta.

IOW we are individually mobile - our tribe doesn't move with us!


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 4134 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
1) What brought about this radical change?
2) Can we really ever go back?
IMHO, we no longer live as tribes. With world travel and global economy, tribes and cultures have been mixed and mangled beyond going back. The better way might be to mindfully determine where it is we intend to go, and then determine the best way to get there.


Told you it would take a few volumes to explain, didn't I Smile   :)

No radical change at all. Instead, it is what I have been trying to communicate for yonks.

Also said it was a matter of taking what we know and reframing it to meet what we know and need today.

Agree with your comments on city life, and have said I have been here some six years and speak on occasion to the bloke next door, say hello to a family across the street, and that's about it.

And yes, the old-style tribal life has long gone.

Then I get back to the Dunedin Study: five major personality types.

My one hope when I get back to U3A is I will find my own "tribe" of like-minded people.

I have, after all, spent some 35 years with my football "tribe", 15 years with my high school and college "tribe", more than a decade with my Internet forum "tribe".

Get on well with my chiropractors, a Canadian, a South African, and a Frenchman. Chat happily with shop assistants, usually manage to leave them smiling.

Which is one form of my NLP reframing/rephrasing/re-interpreting.

There is no going back that I can see. We HAVE to move forward. But I do think we need to find a way to manage it rather than running at it helter-skelter.

Which, as you see now, is what I am on about, finding a fresh way of uniting like-minded types, not family-blood types.

The death knell of the tight family group began to ring with the start of the Industrial Revolution. It's controversial, but in this context I'm happy so see *Blake's Dark Satanic Mills as those horrendous factories staffed by people uprooted from their small, tight, farming villages.

As you pointed out, families can be spread all over the globe. I'm a rare exception, three of my siblings within a short drive, all of one sister's sons, daughters, grandchildren in the same distance, all of my children and grandchildren, with one exception, within that same distance.

Hasn't helped any, though I wonder if this "Me Generation" is one way of modifying behaviour to meet the demands of our new environment?

We actually do have most of the information we need.

We are, for the moment, beaten by the Almighty Dollar Religion.

Interesting to note a comment on Star Trek. Jean-Luc Picard told someone from a different culture that money was now irrelevant in his new, modern, human culture.

When we understood mythology, we adapted it to suit our ever-changing environment.

Then we got religion (Churchianity), and remain stuck in that rut.

Despite it all, we remain small-group social animals.

All we need is the will. We know how to educate every child to their full potential.

Must say, I really don't get people who are content to remain in ignorance and poverty anymore than I get those who spend their lives gathering and hoarding more wealth than they will ever possibly need.

Ah.

How many of today's youngsters, increasing numbers from broken families, have ever been taught how to live their lives?

My Mum and Dad would be delighted to see how their children's' families are developing. They come from a generation aspiring to ensure their families do better than they did. Imagine having a grandson who has an exclusive degree from Oxford, three others all highly successful in their chosen university professions. The next generation, too, is well on the way, two at least with top-level Mensa IQs. I'm not as happy as I might be, but sh*t happens, doesn't it.

* Peter Butt, Romford, Essex: Blake's dark satanic mills are indeed the orthodox churches of the establishment. But they were all churches, all forms of worship, all formal education, and anything that attempted to mould the mind into orthodoxy and received opinion. Blake is the radical's radical.

Bit like your Churchianity, no?

Georgina Robinson, Ruardean Woodside, Glos: I aways believed Blake was referring to the universities, Oxford and Cambridge in particular, when he referred to the "dark satanic mills".

That is what I was thinking of.

https://www.theguardian.com/li...s-dark-satanic-mills


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The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1590 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
Tribes are kind of just more fluid now. Family/friends, church, work, Internet forums, etc. can all be multiple tribes for various individuals.


We're on the same orbit there.


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The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1590 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
IOW we are individually mobile - our tribe doesn't move with us!


Not so.

It's fast approaching midnight and I have to get up early to tidy up before my cleaning lady arrives, so I'll take great interest in seeing how this develops.

Was thinking the other night just how much today's generation is missing out.

Love the UK scripts. If you know The Inspector Lynley Mysteries , you'll understand why I enjoyed it when his sidekick Detective Sergeant Barbara Havers, after spending much of the evening consoling a forensic doctor with personal issues, left him to carve up a corpse and, with a delightful smile, told him to enjoy his night on the tiles.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1590 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
No radical change at all. Instead, it is what I have been trying to communicate for yonks.


From your previous post above: Remembering we are but evolved social/tribal animals, and looking back to the estimated 50,000 years ago when our cultures changed radically, why can't we just go back to that start and begin again, taking into account all we have learned?

This is where I'm getting confused: from your sentence above "why can't we just go back to that start and begin again..."

quote:
And yes, the old-style tribal life has long gone.

I have yet to find anything that serves as a good substitute. Seems to me mobility has put an end to it for the most part. People in all communal aspects of life; family, play, school, work, worship, community, seem so transient.

But then, I don't warm up to strangers very quickly. They have to prove themselves worthy first.

quote:
Then I get back to the Dunedin Study: five major personality types.

Wish I had the time to run it down and take it in, but I'm busier than a one-armed paper hanger these days.

quote:
My one hope when I get back to U3A is I will find my own "tribe" of like-minded people.

I have, after all, spent some 35 years with my football "tribe", 15 years with my high school and college "tribe", more than a decade with my Internet forum "tribe".

My work mates were as close to a tribe as I've ever come, but alas, they were rather transient members. Always moving elsewhere. I was the rare one who came into one of the lower positions and was promoted several times, within the same office, to the second highest position.

quote:
Get on well with my chiropractors, a Canadian, a South African, and a Frenchman. Chat happily with shop assistants, usually manage to leave them smiling.

Which is one form of my NLP reframing/rephrasing/re-interpreting.

Doesn't quite meet my idea of "tribe". I have gone to the same grocery and pharmacy for over 25 years. Some of them know me by name. And while we are all rather friendly, we know little or nothing about each other.

quote:
As you pointed out, families can be spread all over the globe. I'm a rare exception, three of my siblings within a short drive, all of one sister's sons, daughters, grandchildren in the same distance, all of my children and grandchildren, with one exception, within that same distance.

Count yourself fortunate. It really is a rarity.

quote:
Hasn't helped any, though I wonder if this "Me Generation" is one way of modifying behaviour to meet the demands of our new environment?

Frankly, they baffle me. Seems almost like a revolt sometimes, but I keep trying to figure out what exactly they intend to accomplish. Do THEY even know?

quote:
We actually do have most of the information we need.

We are, for the moment, beaten by the Almighty Dollar Religion.

Interesting to note a comment on Star Trek. Jean-Luc Picard told someone from a different culture that money was now irrelevant in his new, modern, human culture.

We are quite a ways from that. Can't happen soon enough to suit me.

quote:
When we understood mythology, we adapted it to suit our ever-changing environment.

Then we got religion (Churchianity), and remain stuck in that rut.

Just in case you haven't heard yet, the churches are emptying out rather quickly as of late. The way I see it, when they started selling "theology" rather than "Kingdom of God" wherein one is expected to "Do unto others as you would have done unto you," they sold themselves short. Doesn't take long for most of us to realize that the church is as full of bs as the con men on the street.

quote:
How many of today's youngsters, increasing numbers from broken families, have ever been taught how to live their lives?

My Mum and Dad would be delighted to see how their children's' families are developing. They come from a generation aspiring to ensure their families do better than they did. Imagine having a grandson who has an exclusive degree from Oxford, three others all highly successful in their chosen university professions. The next generation, too, is well on the way, two at least with top-level Mensa IQs. I'm not as happy as I might be, but sh*t happens, doesn't it.

Most kids learn by examples from their parents. Can't preach one thing and another.

Then there are some parents who act as if their children are blind, deaf, and dumb. They do whatever they please and the kids can just be damned. Makes one wonder why they even had kids to start with.

In truth, kids mostly learn from their class and play mates. Trouble is, those who don't care if they have mates are the ones who make it tough for everyone else...because they don't care who get hurt.

Always wanted to have kids, but there are days when I'm glad that I didn't. Sheesh!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 4134 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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