Chronic... |
Here is an update on the drought close to Israel, but in Syria: http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?ReportId=87165 The discussion on Christmas and Hanukkah is OFF TOPIC. Please start a new topic or use a current and pertinent one. Thanks, Donald | |||
|
| Never goes away... |
I think it's exactly on-topic. you don't get to decide what's on topic and what's not. I think your posts are irrelevant, but I don't get to decide. I just put up with your bull****. But most of the time, I simply ignore your insanity. Speaking of insanity, where's your alter-ego, sela? Holy Bhagworm | |||
|
| Steadfast... |
Stephen, I was referring to the birth of the historical Jesus. If he is seen as the embodiment or incarnation of the Logos, then the symbolism is completely consistent with the birth or rebirth of the Light at the Winter Solstice. I wasn't disagreeing with you. In many ways--probably most ways--the Christian liturgical year is based upon the Pagan "Wheel of the Year." The Hebrew calendar with its cycle of holidays is even more so because it's that much older. Many Jewish holidays have a seasonal or agricultural significance in addition the historical or quasi-historical meanings that came to be associated with them later on. This is especially true of the three pilgrimage festivals, Passover, Shavuot (Pentecost) and Sukkot (Tabernacles = Harvest). However the Hebrew calendar specifically follows the Mediterranean agricultural year, which is somewhat different from the European one. That's due to the difference in climate between the two regions...well, DUH! It's only debunking to point these things out if you take a debunking attitude towards them, which I never do. I think the layers of meaning that have built up around these holidays add to their meaning rather than detracting from it. --Linda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa | |||
|
| Steadfast... |
Fer cryin' out loud...ALL the topics on this board typically wander all over the place. That has been true ever since this board got started, and it was true on *P Internet and *P Classic before that. Digressions have been known to go on for pages before coming back to the topic again. Have you ever known an interfaith board where that DIDN'T happen? Why take offense at this particular digression? Of course if you want to get back to "the Holocaust was biblical punishment..." I'll be more than happy to oblige you. That's also off-topic from the topic of Drought in Israel, but you didn't complain about it when I brought up the subject earlier. I don't know why not, but you didn't. Suppose we start with this little gem, which you posted on December 7th:
So what kind of "play" do you think God had in the Holocaust? I'm sure HB will find your response as entertaining (in a sick kind of way) as I will. --Linda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa | |||
|
| Never goes away... |
Hey Raksha, Is Donny going to blame G-d for the Holocaust again? I can't wait for his insane reply. Holy Bhagworm | |||
|
Forum Host |
Just a couple of things... 1) We all know Christmas became Christian because all the little pagan children (the majority then) were celebrating pagan stuff in December. So even though Christians sort of knew that Christ was actually born in the spring, they didn't want to leave the kids out of the fun that the pagan kids were having, so they invented a day in December and pretended it was Christ's birthday. Never had anything to do with Jesus, really. It was a hypocritical and cynical way to have another party. 2) As an atheist (apparently I was born that way), I think you're ALL nuts. Dead is dead. There are no gods. Never were. Never will be. The future is unknowable. There's no such thing as a valid Biblical prophecy. Any "bible" was written/translated by hundreds of different people over many centuries and changed drastically over the years for social and political reasons. That's why the picture of God in it is so schizoid--kind and loving sometimes, incredibly evil and vindictive other times. 3) As a Jew (apparently I was born that way too), I'm one of the chosen people, so if I'm wrong about everything in #2 I'm in no trouble.  Jeff | |||
|
| Never goes away... |
Jews are allowed to be wrong once in awhile, Jeff. Holy Bhagworm | |||
|
Enthusiast... |
Historically that's not correct. It was only much later that the liturgical feast celebrating the Incarnation of God as a man was sentimentalized and infantilized into largely a holiday for children and office parties. As for its origin, I think it's generally understood that it was instituted around the 4th century, iirc, starting in Rome and gradually adopted more widely. Christmas was originally an aspect of the feast of Theophany (Epiphany in the West) on January 6th, which celebrated the whole sweep of the revelation of God. But in response to the pagan feast of the birth of the Invincible Sun (Sol Invictus, another name for Mithras) around the Winter solstice, the Incarnation/birth parts of Theophany were made into a separate holiday to fall about the same time. Theophany in the East is now primarily about the revelation of Christ in his baptism in the Jordan River. The Armenians on the edge of the empire never made this liturgical change, so they only have the catch-all Theophany and no separate Christmas. Notwithstanding all of that though, there are some ancient writers who offered rationales for why 12/25 was the historical date of Jesus' birth, and not just the date chosen for the liturgical celebration. -- Stephen | |||
|
| Forum Host |
I was being flip of course. If you want to be historical, it was the third century--274 CE--when the winter solstice fell on December 25th. Pagan emperor Aurelian proclaimed this day as Natalis Solis Invicti, the festival of the birth of the invincible sun. Throughout pagan Europe, Christianity was known for supplanting pagan celebrations and holy places in an effort to speed conversion, and it is easy to see this as another example of the same. But there was more involved than just the date. Pagan Rome at this time of year was deeply involved with celebrations. It was the important festival of the old vegetation-god Saturn who (as a god) died or was displaced by Jupiter, the sky-god (depending on how you looked at things). For an entire week, from December 17th to 24th, no work was done and the only law was for everyone to be in good cheer. And, of course, the exchanging of gifts played an important role. That's copied from http://atheism.about.com/library/weekly/aa101800b.htm. I assume it's basically accurate. Jeff | |||
|
| Steadfast... |
Stephen, That's how it's celebrated in the Ecclesia Gnostica also. The important thing is the revelation of the Light, not the earthly birth of Jesus. Therefore Epiphany is considered a more important holiday than Christmas. That's what the "12 days of Christmas" are all about anyway--the 12 days from Christmas to Epiphany. I wonder how many people even know that any more? Kinda weird for a Jewish girl to be talking about this, huh? Oh well...I have never claimed NOT to be a syncretist! --Linda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa | |||
|
| Chronic... |
Some thoughts, which mesh with rain/drought: Winter is from the solstice to the equinox. The growing season in Israel is in the same period. The lunar calendar does strange things, like putting the solstice on December 25 occasionally. Rain is important for the growing season, and drought is a catastrophe. THUS, it is important at the beginning of the growing season to pray for rain, and have festivals celebrating what everyone hopes is a successful season. Donald | |||
|
| Steadfast... |
Donald, The growing season in Israel is NOT from the solstice to the equinox, not if you mean from the winter solstice to the vernal equinox. I don't know where you get some of the off-the-wall stuff you post. I see I posted a note very similar to this one upthread, but it went right past you. Israel has a Mediterranean climate like Southern California, and while some early spring flowers and fruit trees may bloom during that period, it isn't the main growing season for food crops. Just to help you get your bearings, the harvest festival is Sukkot which occurs immediately after Yom Kippur in September or early October. The other two pilgrimage festivals when offerings were brought to the Temple are Passover (spring planting and very early harvest of herbs and green vegetables) and Shavuot (barley harvest). These festivals also have mythical and quasi-historical meanings familiar to us from the Bible, but the oldest meanings are agricultural. I love living in a "biblical" climate where I can actually see the pomegranates in flower at the appropriate time of year (early spring). --Linda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa | |||
|
| Chronic... |
Linda I enjoyed your note, and the reminder of the pomegranates, which appeared also in the decoration of the Temple. The rainy season in Israel is from October to April, but sometimes the rain is frosty. The year I went to Israel, in March of 1992, it had snowed three times in Jerusalem, which must also affect young crops. Best wishes for a happy and prosperous 2010. (Don't you love that numerical progression?) Donald | |||
|
| Chronic... |
There is a deluge of rain in Israel, according to today's www.IsraelNationalNews.com .
Donald | |||
|
| Chronic... |
Update http://israelnewsletter.com/tag/drought/ "After the driest January on record, Israel is faced with a huge problem in the form of a multi-year drought..." (2009) Drought declared after five dry winters http://www.plusnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=84715 Donald | |||
|
| Steadfast... |
Donald, Those drought reports are both at least a year old! Five dry years in a row is bad news (there or here) but one good rainy season can cancel out the effects. The important question is, what has this year been like? I haven't kept up with it. --Linda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa | |||
|
| Chronic... |
Linda I've tried to update rainfall reports, but they must be a national secret. There is some evidence in Hebrew that Israel still has lots of sunshine. Donald | |||
|
| Chronic... |
Finally I found a Weather Network 30 year summary of precipitation: http://www.theweathernetwork.c...tics/C00706/isxx0010 On the other hand the report is that Israel had abundant rain, while Syria is in drought: http://zionistgoldreport.blogs...ael-drought-for.html Donald | |||
|
© 2003-2012 Aantares Online LLC. All Rights Reserved.