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Biblical Scholar: Dont take Bible literally
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Actually, my denomination would have welcomed both of you.[QUOTE/]

Suitably chastised, I stand corrected.

[QUOTE] In fact, I'm not sure there was one of the main denominations, on campus, that would have rejected either of you for a seminar discussion. My church had a weekly free soup and conversation where we invited a professor to speak on any topic they'd like. And yes, it was packed when the biology professor that irritated so many anti-evolutionists. His classroom lectures began with a statement that he didn't care whether you believed it or not but you would be tested on it and expected to be able to explain the principles of evolution. The Baptist Church was active in helping students understand that they could learn a principle without compromising their beliefs. I missed the professor's soup talk because I had a class but I'm told people stayed for more than lunch! There were others that presented the geology than matched some of the archeology mentioned in the Bible. And others that simply talked about whatever was brought up.
The Methodist Church sponsored a lot of plays in their student center as well as a "coffee house" that often had musicians, poets, and just discussions on all sorts of topics. You both would have been accepted their too!
As you might have guessed these churches were in the South, but in a larger city! But no it wasn't a Church affiliated University!


That's what I've been looking for for so long.

The Baptist Church was active in helping students understand that they could learn a principle without compromising their beliefs.

That's just great. Lifted my spirits considerably. My thoughts are that this open honest approach is exactly what is needed.

I can now go off happily, cheerfully feeding my avian guests.

See ya.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Reading the rest of your post, I'm wondering if in fact you were reinforcing what I had said, simply adding Julius (JC) as a further Roman Emperor who affected the way Christianity evolved? If so, I withdraw the question.
Yes just adding that Paul too picked up divus Julius/Imperial cult ideas via places like Corinth and that there are researchers with this idea (Courtney and Carotta).

quote:
You know of Tom Kenyon? His name sounds vaguely familiar.
There's a discussion about him on my favorite channeling forum. He seemed not as bad as some and not as good as others. Seems a little too not specific about things. There are a couple trance channelers that are much more like the Ouija board channeling I keep an eye on.

quote:
Don't know if you ever met SIA on that other forum. I felt she fitted that perfectly. Even suggested she might be one of the 2% with enhanced MDA
I at least read posts from her. Linda has trance channeled.
 
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That's just great. Lifted my spirits considerably. My thoughts are that this open honest approach is exactly what is needed.



Glad I could help! I think that is in part why I look back on my college years so roundly! For what it is worth, the Episcpal priest taught a weekend course on Paul Tillich’s concept of God.
 
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For instance:

quote:
Allan: You did not address my question on the Jewish priests' need to tell the devout Jews why Marduk had defeated Adonai.
Vicki: Incorrect assumption: Jewish priests thought Marduk defeated Adonai.
I understand why you have to believe that Jewish priests thought Marduk defeated Adonai, since you do not accept that the prophets' ministries and writings warned Israel and Judah that they must repent of their idolatry, injustice, corruption, immorality, many years before either group was exiled.


See? You have completely misread what I said. I did not say the priests believed that. What I did say was the priests needed to answer the questions of those Jews who did believe that.

Vicki:
Your assumption that the Jews thought that Marduk was stronger than Adonai is incorrect.

You have come to this incorrect assumption because of your incorrect idea that the books of the prophets who foretold of the conquering and the exile were written after the exile, instead of before. When Jerusalem fell and the people did not return from exile soon, the people were able to see that God followed through on His words about sending His Chosen People into exile- something that He had been warning them about for years.


Allan:
Now, you might argue no Jews would have believed in other deities. If so, that means you have failed to understand me when I said the Bible shows the evolution of ordinary – and I stress ordinary – Jews from polytheism through henotheism to monotheism. The Bible is perfectly clear on this. All one need do is read Jeremiah 44 15:19.

Vicki:
Actually, you have failed to understand the Bible at all, because you have so many misconceptions about when it was written, for starters. The Bible is clear that there is only one God. There were Hebrews who thought otherwise at times and God made it clear in various parts of the Bible that they were wrong.


Various prophets made it very clear to Israel and Judah that they would be carried into exile and Jerusalem would fall, including the temple be destroyed, if they did not repent of their idolatry, false worship, injustice, corruption, failure to follow the Law. There was no need for the priests to write the book of Job in order to explain why Marduk was successful over Adonai. You are making incorrect and unnecessary connections.

Allan:
As for modern Jews saying the Christian concept of a rebellious angel, something not told in their Jewish Bible God gave them, was blasphemous, you ask for a Bible verse saying this is blasphemy straight after I have told you the question could never have arisen in Judaism.

Vicki:
Then it is not blasphemy. That is something you came up with- a connection that you made, according to your beliefs about what Judaism believes.

Allan:
No, repeat no, ancient pre-exile Jew could possibly have perceived of God creating disloyal angels, so it would not have been possible for anyone to have any reason to declare such thinking as blasphemous. God created his angels and said nothing of the possibility of his creation becoming disloyal to him.

Vicki:
Nothing of the possibility of His creation becoming disloyal to Him? Wow! You are really overlooking at lot. People are His creation, according to the Bible. He has a lot to say about their rebellion in the Bible. Israel was His creation, and he brought all kinds of charges against them over time. The nations were judged by God at various times and they are His creations. So, I really don't accept your idea that the Bible doesn't support the idea that God's creations can rebel against Him.

Vicki:
There is no verse in the bible that states that God considers the Satan to be a loyal angel.

Allan:
Please show me a verse in the Jewish Bible which does indeed specifically state God’s chosen Adversary is not a loyal angel.

Vicki:
Ezekiel 28- the portions that pertain to the cherub.

Allan:
Seems, perhaps, my knowledge of the Bible, its history, and the evolving culture which created it, is much broader, more detailed, than you are accustomed to.

Vicki:
I am sure that you would like to think so. It is amazing how wrong people can be about the Bible when they don't recognize the One who inspired it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
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Vicki:
That is one of your problems, imo. Your spray out scatter shots of questions and go down rabbit holes. Have you considered to sticking to one topic for awhile?

Seems that yet again I have failed to communicate with you, Vicki. I was under the impression that I had made it perfectly clear that I think the main reason I became a journalist is I am genetically programmed to ask questions. It happened as an automatic matter of course when I was talking about scientific theories. Without any provocation from my conscious self, my subconscious self asked the difference between a scientific Theory and a scientific Law. I had no option but to find out. This is the way I have always lived full time. Questions just keep popping up. Nothing I can do about it.

Vicki:
I interviewed people for years as part of my job. Getting people to stick to the topic was necessary, in order to get the job done.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
I interviewed people for years as part of my job. Getting people to stick to the topic was necessary, in order to get the job done.

There's a part of the scientific method known as brainstorming where people throw out ideas (there's even software that collects the ideas for people to go through later). I have no problem with the ideas Allan throws out but that's because I'm familiar with researchers who have similar views.

Allan and I don't always agree on details and that's normal even for the professional researchers. The general idea of lots of sharing/editing of divine council stories we agree on. The general idea of a divine council realm to access with or without drugs we agree on. We might disagree on what the divine council is in detail. By the way keep in mind that what the Bible calls angels can be considered gods by others. It's kind of just semantics.

Enoch had a rebellious angel and was quite popular with the Jews but it didn't make the Jewish Bible. That's kind of a hint that there was a difference of opinion on rebellious angels when the Bible was put together. I tend to think that some angels are more like us and can do selfish things but I also think these angels know there are things that the divine council Judge (Yahweh to the Jews) in effect won't allow and something forces the selfish angels to follow some rules.
 
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I remember leading one brainstorming session. But I did have one rule, no one could say but we’ve always done it that way for the first 20 minutes! We had some good ideas as the discussion morphed into a discussion of why something might work and others had unknown outcomes. We cane to a variation that no one could defend when I told the group it was past the 20 minute time limit. They had totally forgotten and questioned what I meant. When I said we’ve always done it that way they couldn’t stop laughing. I concluded with the idea that sometimes things are still being done the old way because they are still efficient, but they should always be re-examined for better ways to do them.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Your assumption that the Jews thought that Marduk was stronger than Adonai is incorrect.


What, exactly, are you basing your assumption on?

Could it be the notion that a culture whose people complained bitterly that they had been defeated because they had been denied the right to worship their ancient Goddess, consort of the deity their priests also accepted, would not ask why a people who worshipped a deity much older than theirs also had defeated them?

Talking about defeats, have you yet found another deity who ordered his followers to commit genocide, killing all men, women, and children?

I ask because this is yet another reason church numbers are increasingly falling away.

Saw on the news two villages separated by barbed wire, all villagers suffering from malnutrition and curable diseases because they have no access to doctors or medication.

The barbed wire is there to prevent them from attacking each other.

One village is Christian, the other Muslim.

Every night we see followers of the Abrahamic deity murdering followers of another version of this same Abrahamic deity.

Do you understand Ish milchama and recognise where I found this Jewish term? Know who it is referring to?

Why is it, given that Sodom and Gomorrah are said to have been destroyed because their inhabitants refused to obey God's command to care for widows and orphans, the poor and needy, we have in a world dominated by versions of this religion millions of widows and orphans, poor and needy, dying at horrendous numbers every day from war, starvation, and curable diseases? Have you seen, as I do every evening, images of tiny children on the point of death from starvation, their little ribs bulging out of their chests?

There are many organisations, religious and atheist, addressing these horrors, but there also are countless self-professed Jews, Christians, and Muslims who are ignoring God's command.

I realise you need to eliminate facts which affect what you have been indoctrinated in, however it is this very concept which is costing churches their members at an increasing rate.

quote:
You have come to this incorrect assumption because of your incorrect idea that the books of the prophets who foretold of the conquering and the exile were written after the exile, instead of before. When Jerusalem fell and the people did not return from exile soon, the people were able to see that God followed through on His words about sending His Chosen People into exile- something that He had been warning them about for years.


You have, for obvious reasons, steadfastly refused to provide evidence for your claims, something which can easily be attested.

I see a great many religious followers whose pride drives them to insist they have the one and only correct understanding of the Word of God, a better understanding than God gave His Chosen People. The very Literalists who are destroying Christianity are usually the worst sinners in this respect.

However, the world has never worked that way.

In fact, all these blatant denials of reality are among the major causes of the ever-increasing church drop-out rate.

When people know for a fact that the Bible is definitely factually wrong in many aspects, how can they not wonder how many other notions claimed as indisputable are equally wrong?

But then, in order to research these questions honestly, one must be absolutely confident that one's beliefs are correct, mustn't one.

quote:

Allan: Now, you might argue no Jews would have believed in other deities. If so, that means you have failed to understand me when I said the Bible shows the evolution of ordinary – and I stress ordinary – Jews from polytheism through henotheism to monotheism. The Bible is perfectly clear on this. All one need do is read Jeremiah 44 15:19.
Vicki: Actually, you have failed to understand the Bible at all, because you have so many misconceptions about when it was written, for starters. The Bible is clear that there is only one God. There were Hebrews who thought otherwise at times and God made it clear in various parts of the Bible that they were wrong.


Yet again your prideful assumption that you know the history of the Bible and the culture which created it so much better than I do is betraying you.

OK, then, tell me when Job was written and provide your external supporting evidence; tell me when Daniel was written and provide your external supporting evidence; tell me when the Torah was written and provide your external supporting evidence.


quote:

Various prophets made it very clear to Israel and Judah that they would be carried into exile and Jerusalem would fall, including the temple be destroyed, if they did not repent of their idolatry, false worship, injustice, corruption, failure to follow the Law. There was no need for the priests to write the book of Job in order to explain why Marduk was successful over Adonai. You are making incorrect and unnecessary connections.


Let's see your established historical evidence, please.

quote:
Allan: As for modern Jews saying the Christian concept of a rebellious angel, something not told in their Jewish Bible God gave them, was blasphemous, you ask for a Bible verse saying this is blasphemy straight after I have told you the question could never have arisen in Judaism.
Vicki:
Then it is not blasphemy. That is something you came up with- a connection that you made, according to your beliefs about what Judaism believes.


Are you able to define blasphemy?

I understand your oppressive need to insist I am wrong, yet you proved incapable of refuting any of the genuinely devout Jewish sources I identified as insisting that it is blasphemous to claim there is a rebellious angel in His Word God gave to His Chosen People.

Your constant denial of the Word of God puts in question the reality of your faith.

quote:
Allan: No, repeat no, ancient pre-exile Jew could possibly have perceived of God creating disloyal angels, so it would not have been possible for anyone to have any reason to declare such thinking as blasphemous. God created his angels and said nothing of the possibility of his creation becoming disloyal to him.
Vicki: Nothing of the possibility of His creation becoming disloyal to Him? Wow! You are really overlooking at lot. People are His creation, according to the Bible. He has a lot to say about their rebellion in the Bible. Israel was His creation, and he brought all kinds of charges against them over time. The nations were judged by God at various times and they are His creations. So, I really don't accept your idea that the Bible doesn't support the idea that God's creations can rebel against Him.


I see you are yet again significantly confused, identifying angels with human beings.

Are you really saying humans are the equals of angels and, since God created flawed humans He also must have created flawed angels?

Please provide established, historical, evidence for your assumption here.

quote:
Can you provide evidence from God's Word to His Chosen People that he did indeed fail to create loyal angels, and His angels are as flawed as we humans are?
Vicki:
There is no verse in the bible that states that God considers the Satan to be a loyal angel.
Allan: Please show me a verse in the Jewish Bible which does indeed specifically state God’s chosen Adversary is not a loyal angel.
Vicki: Ezekiel 28- the portions that pertain to the cherub.


Please explain, with your sources, how this answers my question.

quote:
Allan: Seems, perhaps, my knowledge of the Bible, its history, and the evolving culture which created it, is much broader, more detailed, than you are accustomed to.
Vicki: I am sure that you would like to think so. It is amazing how wrong people can be about the Bible when they don't recognize the One who inspired it.


Yet not once, with your self-proclaimed greater wisdom and understanding, have you provided a single skerrick of supported evidence of any of the errors you claim I have made.
 
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Originally posted by Vicki:
I interviewed people for years as part of my job. Getting people to stick to the topic was necessary, in order to get the job done.


How would the people you interviewed rate alongside leading politicians, business leaders, police and other prominent members of your community at that time?

Did you fail to answer their questions at the same rate you find yourself unable to answer mine?
 
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Vicki:
I interviewed people for years as part of my job. Getting people to stick to the topic was necessary, in order to get the job done.

Bluelamp:
There's a part of the scientific method known as brainstorming where people throw out ideas (there's even software that collects the ideas for people to go through later). I have no problem with the ideas Allan throws out but that's because I'm familiar with researchers who have similar views.

Vicki:
I have used brainstorming, as well, in order to gather ideas of people for finding better ways to do the work that needs to be done. At some point, you have to stop gathering those ideas and start focusing on which ideas can be investigated further and how they can be implemented. Brainstorming can be fun, but you can't stay at the stage.

Bluelamp:
Allan and I don't always agree on details and that's normal even for the professional researchers. The general idea of lots of sharing/editing of divine council stories we agree on. The general idea of a divine council realm to access with or without drugs we agree on. We might disagree on what the divine council is in detail. By the way keep in mind that what the Bible calls angels can be considered gods by others. It's kind of just semantics.

Enoch had a rebellious angel and was quite popular with the Jews but it didn't make the Jewish Bible. That's kind of a hint that there was a difference of opinion on rebellious angels when the Bible was put together. I tend to think that some angels are more like us and can do selfish things but I also think these angels know there are things that the divine council Judge (Yahweh to the Jews) in effect won't allow and something forces the selfish angels to follow some rules.

Vicki:
I think that the topic of angels is an interesting one. The Bible doesn't give a whole lot of details, but the glimpses that we do get are intriguing. Generally, when a person in the Bible sees an angel, their first reaction is fear. The popular depiction of angels outside of the Bible as females with long flowing hair is really quite silly, imo.

The demons that Jesus cast out of people during his ministry did have to obey him, so I agree with you that what you call selfish angels and what I would call rebellious angels, still have to follow some rules.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vicki:
Your assumption that the Jews thought that Marduk was stronger than Adonai is incorrect.


Allan:
What, exactly, are you basing your assumption on?

Vicki:
I was talking about your assumption.

Allan:
Could it be the notion that a culture whose people complained bitterly that they had been defeated because they had been denied the right to worship their ancient Goddess, consort of the deity their priests also accepted, would not ask why a people who worshipped a deity much older than theirs also had defeated them?

Vicki:
Jeremiah addressed this complaint and if you were to read the OT closely, you would understand how corrupt those priests had become by introducing goddess worship, host of heaven worship, etc. God made it very clear through His prophets that He considered these priests as false shepherds who were guilty of leading the people astray. If you read the books of the prophets in the OT, you will see that God clearly lays out the charges against government leaders, priests, the wealthy, and the common people for their corruption and idolatry.

That is why I am mystified when you come up with the idea that priests wrote the book of Job to explain to the people why they were defeated.

Allan:
Talking about defeats, have you yet found another deity who ordered his followers to commit genocide, killing all men, women, and children?

Vicki:
Incorrect assumption: God ordered His followers to commit genocide.


Allan:
Why is it, given that Sodom and Gomorrah are said to have been destroyed because their inhabitants refused to obey God's command to care for widows and orphans, the poor and needy, we have in a world dominated by versions of this religion millions of widows and orphans, poor and needy, dying at horrendous numbers every day from war, starvation, and curable diseases? Have you seen, as I do every evening, images of tiny children on the point of death from starvation, their little ribs bulging out of their chests?

There are many organisations, religious and atheist, addressing these horrors, but there also are countless self-professed Jews, Christians, and Muslims who are ignoring God's command.

Vicki:
If you are concerned that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for ignoring widows and orphans, while allowing the suffering of widows and orphans in the rest of the world, let me assure you that judgment is coming and Jesus will restore all things.

In the meantime, Christians are working to feed the hungry, help those who are victims of disasters, give medical treatment to the sick, house the homeless, work for justice, help people find jobs, etc.

There are people who call themselves Christians or Christians who have gone the way of world, who have decided to follow their own selfish desires, rather than obey Jesus. People who have a beef with Christianity will, of course, focus on them.

Allan:
I realise you need to eliminate facts which affect what you have been indoctrinated in, however it is this very concept which is costing churches their members at an increasing rate.

Vicki:
Wow! So the people who I have talked to about the falling away from their faith or who have decided not to go to church anymore don't realize that they have left because of your reasons. Yeah, listening to people is just a part of my indoctrination, I guess.

Vicki:
You have come to this incorrect assumption because of your incorrect idea that the books of the prophets who foretold of the conquering and the exile were written after the exile, instead of before. When Jerusalem fell and the people did not return from exile soon, the people were able to see that God followed through on His words about sending His Chosen People into exile- something that He had been warning them about for years.

Allan:
You have, for obvious reasons, steadfastly refused to provide evidence for your claims, something which can easily be attested.

Vicki:
What is the point? I haul out my experts against your experts. You haul out your experts against mine. Then it just becomes a battle of the experts and we're not really discussing anything directly.

Allan:
I see a great many religious followers whose pride drives them to insist they have the one and only correct understanding of the Word of God, a better understanding than God gave His Chosen People. The very Literalists who are destroying Christianity are usually the worst sinners in this respect.

Vicki:
As I keep trying to get through to you- There is a big difference between the Hebrew Scriptures and their authority and the compilation of commentaries that Judaism uses to understand those Scriptures. The Scriptures are from God. The commentaries are by learned men who strive to understand those Scriptures and share their wisdom. They are fallible because they are men.

Christians have their body of learned commentators, too. They are wise and fallible because those commentators are men. They are trying to figure out the best way to live as God, through the Bible, directs us.

Allan:
In fact, all these blatant denials of reality are among the major causes of the ever-increasing church drop-out rate.

Vicki:
I understand that you consider these to be blatant denials. They disagree with your worldview, in which the God of the Bible does not really exist. Now that is a worldview that blatantly denies reality!

Allan:
When people know for a fact that the Bible is definitely factually wrong in many aspects, how can they not wonder how many other notions claimed as indisputable are equally wrong?

Vicki:
Exactly! If you and other atheists can convince Christians that the Bible is definitely factually wrong in many aspects, then you can deny that God is the Creator who has power over the universe, our circumstances, who is our judge, the source of all that is good who loves us and wants us to spend eternity with Him. You can deny that Jesus really lived and died for our sins and rose again and is returning to judge and restore all things.

Allan:
Yet again your prideful assumption that you know the history of the Bible and the culture which created it so much better than I do is betraying you.

Vicki:
Said the prideful man to the person who makes a claim he doesn't agree with. Why not address my point, instead? Why would the priests write the book of Job for the reason that you stated- to explain the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon, when the books of the prophets and their ministries already explained in vivid detail why Israel and Judah fell?

Allan:
OK, then, tell me when Job was written and provide your external supporting evidence; tell me when Daniel was written and provide your external supporting evidence; tell me when the Torah was written and provide your external supporting evidence.

Vicki:
Why are you excluding internal evidence?



Vicki:
Then it is not blasphemy. That is something you came up with- a connection that you made, according to your beliefs about what Judaism believes.

Allan:
Are you able to define blasphemy?

Your constant denial of the Word of God puts in question the reality of your faith.

Vicki:
lol

Allan:
I see you are yet again significantly confused, identifying angels with human beings.

Are you really saying humans are the equals of angels and, since God created flawed humans He also must have created flawed angels?

Vicki:
I am saying that angels are created beings and Adam and Eve were created beings. None of them (including Adam and Eve) were created flawed. We do not have an account of the creation of the angels, but in the account of the Creation week, which included the creation of Adam and Eve, God pronounced all that He created as very good. Therefore, what He had created was not flawed.
Allan:
Can you provide evidence from God's Word to His Chosen People that he did indeed fail to create loyal angels, and His angels are as flawed as we humans are?

Vicki:
There is no verse in the bible that states that God considers the Satan to be a loyal angel.

Allan: Please show me a verse in the Jewish Bible which does indeed specifically state God’s chosen Adversary is not a loyal angel.

Vicki: Ezekiel 28- the portions that pertain to the cherub.

Allan:
Please explain, with your sources, how this answers my question.

Vicki:
I already explained the verses in Ezekiel 28, which I went through Pointing out which verses were about the King of Tyre and which verses are thought to be about the cherub who fell.

I am seeing a pattern, here. You are so in love with questions that you don't sit still long enough to actually discuss the answers. You simply go on asking questions.

Allan: Seems, perhaps, my knowledge of the Bible, its history, and the evolving culture which created it, is much broader, more detailed, than you are accustomed to.

Vicki: I am sure that you would like to think so. It is amazing how wrong people can be about the Bible when they don't recognize the One who inspired it.

Allan:
Yet not once, with your self-proclaimed greater wisdom and understanding, have you provided a single skerrick of supported evidence of any of the errors you claim I have made.

Vicki:
I am not saying that I am wiser than you.
Understanding that God is real, who has the ability to communicate through His Word, that He is trustworthy, holy, good, and loves us, helps us to understand what the Bible is saying.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vicki:
I interviewed people for years as part of my job. Getting people to stick to the topic was necessary, in order to get the job done.


Allan:
How would the people you interviewed rate alongside leading politicians, business leaders, police and other prominent members of your community at that time?

Did you fail to answer their questions at the same rate you find yourself unable to answer mine?

Vicki:
The people I interviewed had various reasons to try to distract me from the topic:
They were trying to cover up fraud
They were in a crisis situation and could not focus
They were mentally ill
The topic was highly personal
They were lonely and wanted to extend the interview
They were angry at the system
They were afraid
They wanted to control the interview
They were embarrassed

Those are the reasons that come to mind at the moment.

They were not politicians or policemen or prominent members of the community. They were regular people who had fallen on hard times. They were the kind of people who some think the worst of (if they think of them at all), not understanding that they could be in the same position someday if they had a serious illness, an accident, lost their job, or were deserted by a spouse.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Vicki: I already explained the verses in Ezekiel 28, which I went through Pointing out which verses were about the King of Tyre and which verses are thought to be about the cherub who fell.


You got that bit right anyway, Vicki. Well done.

Now, if you can accept that so much of what you believe amounts to little more than what some people tell you is "thought" to be what the Bible is saying, then we might be able to make progress.

Once you get beyond accepting what a limited number of other people might "think" the Bible is saying, you may even be able to check out the points I make, the facts they are based on, and start to think for yourself.

Accustomed as I was to dealing with highly educated people in responsible positions who had an excellent grasp of the English language which has been such a joy to me as well as being essential to my profession, I can well understand how this language is used as a tool to make people "think" things are other than they really are.

Take your Ezekiel cherub, for instance.

It is quite a linguistic propaganda leap from talking about a mortal king who is "but a man" all the way to saying we "think" Ezekiel has now changed the subject and has decided instead to talk about the Christian Devil, something which no Jew then or now would say actually existed.

I trust by now you have been able to come to terms with the simple fact you are unable to find any evidence whatsoever to refute my statement (established, not as you need to think an assumption) that every adherent of Judaism knows it is indeed blasphemous to claim God failed in that he created disloyal angels.

If you can follow the academic language, understand the implications of what Revd Dr Hector Patmore has to say about Tyre in this context, you might be able to understand and accept where I really am coming from. I have to wonder how you regard university learning, however Durham University is ranked 114 among 1,250 of the world's top universities. In other words, well within the top 10%.

http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/2381/
The thesis then examines more explicitly interpretative material, beginning with the Targum and moving onto the classical rabbinic literature. The final chapter examines the contrasting interpretations of the early Church Fathers, particularly Origen and Jerome who interact polemically with Jewish traditions. In these different sources the central figure of the lament is variously understood to be a 'god' (consonantal Hebrew), the Israelite High Priest (Greek versions), a political exemplar (Targum), a mythical cherub (pointed Masoretic Hebrew), Adam or Hiram (Rabbis), and Satan (Church Fathers).

You will, of course, note that the Reverend Doctor places the notion the story of the mortal king of Tyre being being the Christian Devil begins after Christianity arrives on the scene. It was never there before then.

In case you are not familiar with the terms:

The targumim (singular: "targum", Hebrew: תרגום‬) were spoken paraphrases, explanations and expansions of the Jewish scriptures (also called the Tanakh) that a rabbi would give in the common language of the listeners, which was then often Aramaic.
Targum - Wikipedia
A polemic is something that stirs up controversy by having a negative opinion, usually aimed at a particular group. A piece of writing can be a polemic, as long as it gets someone's goat. Polemic comes from the Greek polemikos meaning "warlike, belligerent."
polemic - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com
https://www.vocabulary.com/dic...edia.org/wiki/Targum

Now you understand that the much later Christian interpretations are seen here as "warlike, belligerent", antagonistic to the teachings of Judaism, you may well be able to come to terms with the honest truth, that I do not "assume" anything at all. Instead, I place academic texts in the frame of the scientific method, something to be investigated, tested, and ultimately agreed on by the experts in the given subject.

So, you see, you are quite mistaken when you insist I assume anything (actually a professional insult).

http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/DepositGuide.pdf

You seem unable to accept that the Bible's prophets very often were not prophesying the future but were actually interpreting the past. But then, that takes a trained understanding of the culture of the time.

Just as the story of David's census was nothing more than an obviously later priestly concoction designed to justify the plague, because they knew nothing whatsoever about germs, viruses and so on, much of what some people "think" is prophecy in the fact of Bible reality is a reframing of the past as a way if explaining their present.

Was there any particular reason you found yourself unable to respond to this? Do you understand ish milchama and recognise where I found this Jewish term? Know who it is referring to?
 
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Once you get beyond accepting what other people might "think" the Bible is saying, you may even be able to check out the points I make and start to think for yourself.



I’m not sure anyone can do that, about much of anything. Our education came from reading text and believing all sorts of things we later found were not facts. History specially. Archeologist in a way too, but the series of National Geographic’s I’m currently has archeologist admitting “we used to think ...” about how early tools were used, about the Amazon only supporting small amounts of agriculture, and the Incas not being good at engineering.

But also the new information is just that new, it deals with new findings and new ways of thinking about things. I doubt Bishop Spong ever expected to write some of what he has written. Was it God leading him to try to wake up the church to the new possibilities for understanding and growth, or must one assume a sinister intent if what he suggest doesn’t fir with old ways of thinking?

In a way most of the new faces on the religion scene are like Jesus, presenting new ways of understand old beliefs and discarding some, adding others. Of course those collectively called prosperity preachers are seen as opportunist at best, and demons at worst, but is it possible that there are some that need to hear their message? Not as an end, but a beginning. And I see Billy Graham’s international revival very similar to these same prosperity preacher. In sacreligious terms, pep rallies for Jesus!
 
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Vicki:
I interviewed people for years as part of my job. Getting people to stick to the topic was necessary, in order to get the job done.



Walmart or K-mart?

HB
 
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
I’m not sure anyone can do that, about much of anything. Our education came from reading text and believing all sorts of things we later found were not facts.


Seems I am not as cynical as you appear here Smile-Big   :D

(Please note that my post you responded to was unintentionally posted long before I was finished.)

Our education came from reading text and believing all sorts of things we later found were not facts.

That's true, but for me and all those like me, there is a difference.

Take your evolution professor, who made it clear he was teaching principles; it was not necessary to accept them as fact, but it was necessary to learn enough so one could pass his exams.

You will remember my saying I got into trouble as a child when I persisted in asking questions of a church elder instead of, as he demanded, accepting without question what he told me.

(This has been fun, this issue of being the genetically programmed Skinnerian questioning type. It has set me off on all sorts of adventures linking how we think to what is coming up in neuropsychology. You may remember my hypothesis that what we express as as the letter-group "God" is just another letter grouping for our subconscious brain. Must make the effort to reply to your email, as I'm hoping I may be getting back to some sort of normal. If I don't sign up with U3A at the end of the month I might as well pull the pin.)

But also the new information is just that new, it deals with new findings and new ways of thinking about things.

Which is exactly in line with what I said earlier about following the scientific method.

Today this is the evidence we have and how we interpret that evidence.

Tomorrow is another day, and we may well find fresh evidence, come up with better interpretations.

In a way most of the new faces on the religion scene are like Jesus, presenting new ways of understand old beliefs and discarding some, adding others. Of course those collectively called prosperity preachers are seen as opportunist at best, and demons at worst, but is it possible that there are some that need to hear their message? Not as an end, but a beginning. And I see Billy Graham’s international revival very similar to these same prosperity preacher. In sacrilegious terms, pep rallies for Jesus!

And you will see straight away that this questioning Skinnerian is automatically driven to know why the preachers need to preach what they do and why the hearers need to hear such interpretations.

Yet another example of my automatic questioning; had to know this:

'Tomorrow is another day' is famous for being the last line of Margaret Mitchells's American Civil War novel Gone With The Wind, 1936:
https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/388000.html

Hadn't read the book, but did see the movie when I were a lad.

Yet another of those snippets my brain logs away for future use.

when I were a lad

https://www.urbandictionary.co...I%20were%20a%20lad...
When I were a lad... I wore a cardboard box and ate dirt. But that didn't stop me from founding an Internet retail empire and making millions.

Straight from 1967 (it's subtitled in case you can't follow the Yorkshire accent):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
I’m not sure anyone can do that, about much of anything. Our education came from reading text and believing all sorts of things we later found were not facts.


Seems I am not as cynical as you appear here Smile-Big   :D

(Please note that my post you responded to was unintentionally posted long before I was finished.)

Our education came from reading text and believing all sorts of things we later found were not facts.

That's true, but for me and all those like me, there is a difference.

Take your evolution professor, who made it clear he was teaching principles; it was not necessary to accept them as fact, but it was necessary to learn enough so one could pass his exams.

You will remember my saying I got into trouble as a child when I persisted in asking questions of a church elder instead of, as he demanded, accepting without question what he told me.

(This has been fun, this issue of being the genetically programmed Skinnerian questioning type. It has set me off on all sorts of adventures linking how we think to what is coming up in neuropsychology. You may remember my hypothesis that what we express as as the letter-group "God" is just another letter grouping for our subconscious brain. Must make the effort to reply to your email, as I'm hoping I may be getting back to some sort of normal. If I don't sign up with U3A at the end of the month I might as well pull the pin.)

But also the new information is just that new, it deals with new findings and new ways of thinking about things.

Which is exactly in line with what I said earlier about following the scientific method.

Today this is the evidence we have and how we interpret that evidence.

Tomorrow is another day, and we may well find fresh evidence, come up with better interpretations.

In a way most of the new faces on the religion scene are like Jesus, presenting new ways of understand old beliefs and discarding some, adding others. Of course those collectively called prosperity preachers are seen as opportunist at best, and demons at worst, but is it possible that there are some that need to hear their message? Not as an end, but a beginning. And I see Billy Graham’s international revival very similar to these same prosperity preacher. In sacrilegious terms, pep rallies for Jesus!

And you will see straight away that this questioning Skinnerian is automatically driven to know why the preachers need to preach what they do and why the hearers need to hear such interpretations.

Yet another example of my automatic questioning; had to know this:

'Tomorrow is another day' is famous for being the last line of Margaret Mitchells's American Civil War novel Gone With The Wind, 1936:
https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/388000.html

Hadn't read the book, but did see the movie when I were a lad.

Yet another of those snippets my brain logs away for future use.

when I were a lad

https://www.urbandictionary.co...I%20were%20a%20lad...
When I were a lad... I wore a cardboard box and ate dirt. But that didn't stop me from founding an Internet retail empire and making millions.

Straight from 1967 (it's subtitled in case you can't follow the Yorkshire accent):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k


I got in trouble for asking why too many times in school. When one of my teachers told my Dad, he told him it was his fault as he encouraged me to ask questions.

As for why one needs to hear certain things, I believe it’s who we are. But one take on it, that I think you might like is Kopp’s “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him”.

Like mathematics we all start with some assumptions. They can be proven wrong, but usually they are simply things that are needed for building blocks. Labeling our poorly understood driving force God may be necessary in order to study it more clearly. Whether one needs to explore more deeply may be based on experiences, some more revealing than others. Jonathan Livingston Seagull comes to mind. The need to explain external things we have no control over seems to be deminishing.
 
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
I got in trouble for asking why too many times in school. When one of my teachers told my Dad, he told them he hoped it was his fault as he encouraged me to ask questions.


Which explains why you understand me so well. (Did I amend your system's typo properly? Your Dad sounds like a man after my own heart.)

quote:
As for why one needs to hear certain things, I believe it’s who we are. But one take on it, that I think you might like is Kopp’s “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him”.
Like mathematics we all start with some assumptions. They can be proven wrong, but usually they are simply things that are needed for building blocks. Labeling our poorly understood driving force God may be necessary in order to study it more clearly. Whether one needs to explore more deeply may be based on experiences, some more revealing than others. Jonathan Livingston Seagull comes to mind.


Would you say it is pure synchronicity when I go searching for your quote and find:

It is incongruent for Buddhists to understand that in the 'illusion', in the 'phantasm' that is 'sunyata' of the samsaric world of the immutable law of karma, that there is no Self, no Ego, no Atman or Soul and no God, and yet the mind-consciousness suddenly hesitates and holds back when it comes to the Buddha.
https://www.quora.com/What-doe...e-road-kill-him-mean

Labeling our poorly understood driving force God may be necessary in order to study it more clearly.

Yep.

The need to explain external things we have no control over seems to be diminishing.

Which relates directly to what I said about so many of today's students. SNAFU. How can one create questions when analytical, critical, thinking is banned and we get the likes of that Year 11 or 12 student who had no idea what the word pacifist means? Hacksaw Ridge

There have been lots, but I have no idea how often I have asked someone what they are thinking to be told "nothing". How can a normal person not be thinking while they are awake? I can't get to sleep at night because my brain/mind is going over something I am interested in.

Might make 2019 my year for finding someone to teach me how to medidate, perhaps a not-all-that-far-distant Buddhist institute. No excuse, as I used to pass it regularly when travelling to another club during the football season.

Trying to eliminate all but the one topic I need to focus on has been impossible for me.

That site you led me to says it perfectly:

If your focus and concentration in the practice of clearing your mind, so that there is only one thought at a time, and then only the thought that you are meditating on, is obstructed by anything in your mind, let alone 'the Buddha in your mind', you kill that unwanted 'Buddha in your mind' and anything else.
 
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Originally posted by Vicki:
Allan:
Talking about defeats, have you yet found another deity who ordered his followers to commit genocide, killing all men, women, and children?

Vicki:
Incorrect assumption: God ordered His followers to commit genocide.


Seems I do indeed know aspects, at least, of the Bible better than you do. Even gotquestions, of all people, agrees with me Smile-Big   :D

Why did God command the extermination / genocide of the Canaanites, women and children included?
...This is a difficult issue. We do not fully understand why God would command such a thing, but we trust God that He is just – and we recognize that we are incapable of fully understanding a sovereign, infinite, and eternal God.
...In regard to the Canaanites, God commanded, “In the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:16-18).
https://www.gotquestions.org/C...s-extermination.html

Learned yet who ish milchama is, and where I found this?

Hint: in its various spellings, this is Hebrew for Master or Man of war.

MTC

Off to feed my avian guests. Must do this or I'll add to my sin list.
 
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Allan, them is better, but I had typed him which I corrected it to. I need to read the book again, thanks for the quote. As for meditation yoga can be useful too.

I was extremely good at debugging software I’d never worked with before. I attribute it to multiple questions all firing at once. But when I plan was presented I would get blank stares most for my what if questions. Turns out I was often about 2 days ahead of most and the reason no one understood was because I’d put so many things together quickly. Two people in my career really recognized it as a good thing as opposed to just being difficult.
 
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Originally posted by Holy Bhagworm:
Walmart or K-mart?
HB


Please do me a major favour and switch your target.

Nothing I need more than a critical analysis of what I say, so every time you see me goof give me a big shout please.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vicki:
Vicki: I already explained the verses in Ezekiel 28, which I went through Pointing out which verses were about the King of Tyre and which verses are thought to be about the cherub who fell.


You got that bit right anyway, Vicki. Well done.

Now, if you can accept that so much of what you believe amounts to little more than what some people tell you is "thought" to be what the Bible is saying, then we might be able to make progress.

Vicki:
(sigh) And if you can accept that what I believe comes from study and evaluation of the Bible passages and involves rational thought processes, then we might be able to make progress.

Allan:
Once you get beyond accepting what a limited number of other people might "think" the Bible is saying, you may even be able to check out the points I make, the facts they are based on, and start to think for yourself.

Vicki:
Thank-you, Allan, for insulting me. Jesus said there would be days like this. Smile   :)


Allan:
Take your Ezekiel cherub, for instance.

It is quite a linguistic propaganda leap from talking about a mortal king who is "but a man" all the way to saying we "think" Ezekiel has now changed the subject and has decided instead to talk about the Christian Devil, something which no Jew then or now would say actually existed.

Vicki:
Thank-you for your opinion. However, there are other places in the Bible where a person is being addressed and then the entity that influenced that person is addressed. Probably the most famous is the passage where Jesus says he must die and Peter objects. Jesus says, "Get behind me, Satan". He's not calling Peter, Satan. Something similar happens in Genesis 3.

Allan:
I trust by now you have been able to come to terms with the simple fact you are unable to find any evidence whatsoever to refute my statement (established, not as you need to think an assumption) that every adherent of Judaism knows it is indeed blasphemous to claim God failed in that he created disloyal angels.

Vicki:
lol
Yes, I have come to terms that you mind is made up.

Allan:
If you can follow the academic language, understand the implications of what Revd Dr Hector Patmore has to say about Tyre in this context, you might be able to understand and accept where I really am coming from. I have to wonder how you regard university learning, however Durham University is ranked 114 among 1,250 of the world's top universities. In other words, well within the top 10%.

Vicki:
I've noticed that you have a very high regard for experts who agree with your viewpoint.

Allan:
So, you see, you are quite mistaken when you insist I assume anything (actually a professional insult).

Vicki:
I have learned that one of the hardest things for people to see or admit to is their underlying assumptions. Of course there are your assumptions that are more obvious- such as that I don't think for myself.

Allan:
You seem unable to accept that the Bible's prophets very often were not prophesying the future but were actually interpreting the past. But then, that takes a trained understanding of the culture of the time.

Vicki:
The prophets were God's mouthpieces. They delivered God's warnings when people were getting off track. They reminded them of what God had done for them in the past. They told them of the consequences if they did not repent- they would be judged. God also offered hope through His prophets to the remnant who would be faithful, even during hard times, such as being conquered and dispersed. God also spoke through His prophets about the future and the far future.

Allan:
Just as the story of David's census was nothing more than an obviously later priestly concoction designed to justify the plague, because they knew nothing whatsoever about germs, viruses and so on, much of what some people "think" is prophecy in the fact of Bible reality is a reframing of the past as a way if explaining their present.

Vicki:
It is interesting that you are so willing to cite what Judaism believes the Hebrew Scriptures are saying when it supports your position, and how quickly you disregard what Judaism believes when it doesn't support your position.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Allan:
Talking about defeats, have you yet found another deity who ordered his followers to commit genocide, killing all men, women, and children?

Vicki:
Incorrect assumption: God ordered His followers to commit genocide.


Seems I do indeed know aspects, at least, of the Bible better than you do. Even gotquestions, of all people, agrees with me Smile-Big   :D

Why did God command the extermination / genocide of the Canaanites, women and children included?
...This is a difficult issue. We do not fully understand why God would command such a thing, but we trust God that He is just – and we recognize that we are incapable of fully understanding a sovereign, infinite, and eternal God.
...In regard to the Canaanites, God commanded, “In the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:16-18).
https://www.gotquestions.org/C...s-extermination.html

Learned yet who ish milchama is, and where I found this?

Hint: in its various spellings, this is Hebrew for Master or Man of war.

MTC

Off to feed my avian guests. Must do this or I'll add to my sin list.


Vicki:
Your question was akin to asking, "When did you stop beating your wife?" As Gotquestions said, it is a complex issue. You want to assume that God was ordering genocide. I would rather discuss it. That is if, you would be willing to stick to just one topic and not start off into another direction.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Allan:
Just as the story of David's census was nothing more than an obviously later priestly concoction designed to justify the plague, because they knew nothing whatsoever about germs, viruses and so on, much of what some people "think" is prophecy in the fact of Bible reality is a reframing of the past as a way if explaining their present.

Vicki:
It is interesting that you are so willing to cite what Judaism believes the Hebrew Scriptures are saying when it supports your position, and how quickly you disregard what Judaism believes when it doesn't support your position.

From an Allan-like secular history point of view there was a plague 250 years before David that had kings wondering what they did to offend their favorite pantheistic god; there were even pantheistic gods that flew through the air with a drawn sword Angel of God-like. Thus secular history-wise I would actually suspect reuse of an old story rather than a totally made up new story.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Vicki:
Your question was akin to asking, "When did you stop beating your wife?" As Gotquestions said, it is a complex issue. You want to assume that God was ordering genocide. I would rather discuss it. That is if, you would be willing to stick to just one topic and not start off into another direction.

We aren't narrowing down ideas for a purpose like writing a book here so I'm actually fine with lots of brainstorming in various secular directions. Secular history-wise, the only group ravaging Canaan at the time were the Hittites so I would suspect them for inspiring genocide accusations.
 
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