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Biblical Scholar: Dont take Bible literally
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quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
The Israelites did not leave Egypt under orders of their deity to exterminate a number of Canaanite tribes. The exodus from Egypt was about God answering the cry of His people and delivering them from Egypt.


So when, exactly, does your bible say God gave this genocide order?

You will understand the reason for my emphasis in what follows; it is basically what I have been trying to get across to you right from the start

https://www.bethinking.org/bib...tament-mass-killings
One attempt to overcome this difficulty is the suggestion that God allowed His name to be associated with these mass killings because His love for Israel was so great that He was willing to have His reputation tarnished for the sake of His relationship with them. This view, however, does not find any support in the relevant Old Testament texts, which clearly state that God commanded the mass killings (Joshua 6:17, 21; Deuteronomy 20:16-17). Later texts even criticise the Israelites for their failure to obey the command (Psalm 106:34-42). The only way to reconcile the Old Testament accounts with this view is to regard the Old Testament as simply Israel’s record of their perception of their unfolding relationship with Yahweh. The Old Testament is reduced to being a human account of the evolution of monotheistic religion rather than a divine revelation of God’s actions in history.
...The only way to explain away the problem of the Old Testament mass killings is to have a low view of Scriptural authority, whereas this study assumes a high view. This article, therefore, will attempt to take Scripture at face value and consider exactly how the mass killing of the Canaanites fits with our understanding of God as love.

quote:

Context is very important in understanding verses in the Bible. Are you aware that ish milchama is used in other parts of the Bible as well? So, it was important to know how you were using the phrase.


What, precisely, is the context of those instances?

Your own quotes from your Bible do nothing more than support what I said right at the beginning.

I will cause the people ahead of you to feel terror and throw into confusion all the nations you come to.

Given that at this time Jews were henotheists, what right did this deity have to inflict genocide on people under a different patron deity?

As for the actual recorded archaeology of the region, there is little if any evidence on any such invasion of Canaan.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
You may advanced and supported the idea that in Qumran the use of "Damascus" as a code word for their place. But you have not proven that Luke used the word "Damascus" as a code name when he wrote the book of Acts.


Nor, of course, are you able to prove otherwise.

I invite you to try.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/r...aps/qumran-community
Data found in the Damascus Document (CD and its copies 4QD, 5QD) must be used with caution; although copies of it were produced at Qumran and found in the caves, it apparently governed the communal life of "camps" in the land of "Damascus" (a code word for related Jews dwelling elsewhere).

quote:
As for the Latin translation for "morning Star"- all I can say is, "so what"? The devil had an honored position at one time. The Latin translation happens to be morning star. People decided to use Lucifer as another name for the devil. People have come up with a lot of names for the devil.

Again that is a Christian rewrite of the Judaic Bible. You can not give me one instance of an angelic rebellion recorded anywhere there.

What Hebrew term do you give to the angel who challenged Balaam?

[QUOTE]I'm sure you can think of some names the English had for him, too.


English? Or ancient peoples living in what is now Great Britain?

Do you mean Arawn, Gwyn ap Nudd?

Annwfyn is an entirely different place from the much later Christian Hell. Instead, it is a world of delights and eternal youth where disease was absent and food was ever-abundant.

Or perhaps you have in mind the Celtic Otherworld visited by the likes of Cúchulainn, Fionn and Bran? Tír Tairngire ("land of promise/promised land"), Tír na nÓg ("land of the young/land of youth")?
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vicki:
The Israelites did not leave Egypt under orders of their deity to exterminate a number of Canaanite tribes. The exodus from Egypt was about God answering the cry of His people and delivering them from Egypt.


So when, exactly, does your bible say God gave this genocide order?


You will understand the reason for my emphasis in what follows; it is basically what I have been trying to get across to you right from the start

https://www.bethinking.org/bib...tament-mass-killings
One attempt to overcome this difficulty is the suggestion that God allowed His name to be associated with these mass killings because His love for Israel was so great that He was willing to have His reputation tarnished for the sake of His relationship with them. This view, however, does not find any support in the relevant Old Testament texts, which clearly state that God commanded the mass killings (Joshua 6:17, 21; Deuteronomy 20:16-17). Later texts even criticise the Israelites for their failure to obey the command (Psalm 106:34-42). The only way to reconcile the Old Testament accounts with this view is to regard the Old Testament as simply Israel’s record of their perception of their unfolding relationship with Yahweh. The Old Testament is reduced to being a human account of the evolution of monotheistic religion rather than a divine revelation of God’s actions in history.
...The only way to explain away the problem of the Old Testament mass killings is to have a low view of Scriptural authority, whereas this study assumes a high view. This article, therefore, will attempt to take Scripture at face value and consider exactly how the mass killing of the Canaanites fits with our understanding of God as love.

Vicki:
There is no problem to explain away. God is the One who causes nations to rise and to cause them to fall. He uses nations for His purposes- one of which is judgment. As I said in an earlier post, God allowed the Canaanites 400 years until their iniquities reached a point where He knew the time was right for His people to enter the Land and take over. Mercy was shown to Rahab of Jericho, who acknowledged the One True God and helped the spies.

Israel was not immune to the same means of judgment, as seen by the Assyrian invasion and exile of the northern kingdom and by the Babylonian invasion and exile of Judah.



Allan:
As for the actual recorded archaeology of the region, there is little if any evidence on any such invasion of Canaan.

Vicki:
That is because, as I mentioned in a previous post- only three cities were burned.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
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Originally posted by Vicki:
That is because, as I mentioned in a previous post- only three cities were burned.


Just three cities torched.

No big deal, eh?

One of them was not Jericho, of course.

But you already know that, don't you.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Israel was not immune to the same means of judgment, as seen by the Assyrian invasion and exile of the northern kingdom and by the Babylonian invasion and exile of Judah.


Yes, Vicki.

Israel was not immune.

To the overwhelming military and economic power of the real nations, which took it for granted as a minor nuisance.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vicki:
You may advanced and supported the idea that in Qumran the use of "Damascus" as a code word for their place. But you have not proven that Luke used the word "Damascus" as a code name when he wrote the book of Acts.


Nor, of course, are you able to prove otherwise.

I invite you to try.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/r...aps/qumran-community
Data found in the Damascus Document (CD and its copies 4QD, 5QD) must be used with caution; although copies of it were produced at Qumran and found in the caves, it apparently governed the communal life of "camps" in the land of "Damascus" (a code word for related Jews dwelling elsewhere).


Vicki:
That is incredibly vague about communal life of camps in the land being all called "Damascus".

But anyway-

Acts 9:1-2
Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qumran
the excavations there have not revealed any synagogues.

Acts 9:5, Saul asks the Lord, who are you? and Jesus replies "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.

It does not appear from the excavations at Qumran that a city existed there. They had a water source, 2 cisterns, a building that some have thought was a fort or villa, a room with ink wells that some archaeologists have thought could have been used as a place for copying manuscripts, a pantry in which crockery has been found. The question has been- where did the people live, if the estimate of Qumran's population was 200? Some have suggested that they lived in the caves, but no evidence has been found that they were used as residences. Some have suggested that the bulk of the population lived in tents and that the 200 did not live in Qumran year round. I suppose that is possible. But could that community be considered a city and would it have synagogues?

Acts 9:11
The Lord told him (Ananias),"Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying.

There is no evidence from the excavations of Qumran that it had streets.

Acts 9:23-24
After many days had gone by, the Jews conspired to kill him, but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him.
But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a basket through an opening in the wall.

There has been no city wall or city gate excavated at Qumran.

I suppose you can claim that the "Damascus" mentioned in Acts, referred to some other Qumran community that has yet to be excavated.

But the evidence from Acts 9 appears to describe the actual city of Damascus, rather than a refuge community of the Qumran sect.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
That is because, as I mentioned in a previous post- only three cities were burned.


Just three cities torched.

No big deal, eh?

One of them was not Jericho, of course.

But you already know that, don't you.


Joshua 6:24 (about Jericho)
Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the LORD's house.

A three foot high ash layer verifies that Jericho experienced being burned.

Originally, archaeologists stated that the destruction occurred in 1550 BC, well before Joshua and the Israelites arrived. This has been disputed, though.

One of the points that the Lord made, was that He was giving the Israelites towns that they did not have to build themselves, which is another reason why there is so little evidence of the Canaanite invasion.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Israel was not immune to the same means of judgment, as seen by the Assyrian invasion and exile of the northern kingdom and by the Babylonian invasion and exile of Judah.


Yes, Vicki.

Israel was not immune.

To the overwhelming military and economic power of the real nations, which took it for granted as a minor nuisance.


Vicki:
Israel was a real nation. It was a great nation for a short period of time.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
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Allan:
quote:
What Hebrew term do you give to the angel who challenged Balaam?


Vicki:
The Hebrew term used in Numbers 22:22 for angel of the LORD is yod-hey-vav-hey mem-lamed-alef-kaf (YHWH Malakh).

In English, the term "malakh" can mean angel or messenger.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
...but now we do indeed have that mythology, the former captain in a paid advert speaking directly to youngsters playing the game, telling them that cheating comes at great personal cost...

Watching The Hobbit not long after reading a chapter of The White Goddess, I reckon one of Gollum's challenging riddles was broadly based on a riddle of Taliesin, something Tolkien would have well known.

On the broader scale, I'm wondering if some, at least, of what is contained in the great mysteries is now out of date.

We no longer are closely connected to Nature, except for those actually farming...

Orion may rule, but what effect will this have on us?...

One can certainly have personal myths via things like sports or Doctor Who. Astrology includes omens too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omen

quote:
In the field of astrology, solar and lunar eclipses (along with the appearance of comets and to some extent the full moon) have often been considered omens of notable births, deaths, or other significant events throughout history in many societies. One biblical example is the Magi in the Gospel of Matthew who predicted the birth of Jesus after seeing the Star of Bethlehem... Comets also have been considered both good and bad omens. Halley's Comet was a "bad omen" for King Harold II of England but a "good omen" for William the Conqueror.[12]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar%27s_Comet

quote:
Caesar's Comet[2] (numerical designation C/-43 K1) – also known as Comet Caesar and the Great Comet of 44 BC – was perhaps the most famous comet of antiquity. Its seven-day visitation was interpreted by Romans as a sign of the deification of recently assassinated dictator, Julius Caesar (100–44 BC).

aka the birth of Paul's cosmic Imperial Cult Christ from the victorious trophy/tropaeum cross.

http://www.morien-institute.org/hanesnash.html

quote:
The translation of the riddle-poem "Hanes Taliesin" below is reproduced exactly as printed in the book "The White Goddess" by Robert Graves. All spellings and use of upper and lower cases are as they appear in the book, which must rank as one of the most important contributions to our understanding of 'the triple goddess' concept that was a central feature of the beliefs of many ancient cultures. In archaic times this seems to have been a global phenomena, as attested to by the abundance of 'earth goddess' artifacts discovered all over the world. In many areas, where evidence of hurriedly abandoned settlement has shown the existence of past civilisation, some of these figurines would have been treasured possessions.

She was the personification of the Earth at its different seasons, and the various names of the 'the triple goddess' commonly used in many ancient cultures are names that are descritptive of the Earth at those seasons. The interaction between the 'Earth Mother' and the 'Sky Father' throughout the course of the natural (solar) year was a matter of great concern to ancient peoples all over the world, and was the focus of their cosmologies, which governed their science and religion. It is not surprising therefore that their oral traditions are steeped in sky lore, which, when de-coded, is increasingly proving to contain the accurate observations of ancient skywatchers, as is evident in the riddle-poem below.

"Hanes Taliesin"
"Primary chief bard am I to Elphin,
And my original country is the region of the summer stars;
Idno and Heinin called me Merddin,
At length every king will call me Taliesin.
5. I was with my Lord in the highest sphere,
On the fall of Lucifer into the depth of hell
I have borne a banner before Alexander;
I know the names of the stars from north to the south;
I have been on the Galaxy at the throne of the Distributor;
10. I was in Canaan when Absalom was slain;
I conveyed Awen [the Divine Spirit] to the level of the vale of Hebron
I was in the court of Dôn before the birth of Gwydion.
I was instructor to Eli and Enoch;
I have been winged by the genius of the splendid crozier;
15. I have been loquacious prior to being gifted with speech;
I was at the place of the crucifixion of the merciful son of God;
I have been three periods in the prison of Arianrhod;
I have been the chief director of the work of the tower of Nimrod;
I am a wonder whose origin is not known.
20. I have been in Asia with Noah in the Ark,
I have witnessed the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah;
I have been in India when Rome was built;
I am now come here to the remnant of Troia.
I have been with my Lord in the manger of the ass;
25. I strenghtened Moses through the waters of Jordan;
I have been in the firmament with Mary Magdalene;
I have obtained the muse from the Cauldron of Caridwen;
I have been bard of the harp to Lleon of Lochlin.
I have been on the White Hill, in the court of Cynvelyn,
30. For a year and a day in stocks and fetters,
I have suffered hunger for the Son of the Virgin,
I have been fostered in the land of the Deity,
I have been teacher to all intelligences,
I am able to instruct the whole universe.
35. I shall be until the day of doom on the face of the earth;
And it is not known if my body is flesh or fish.
Then I was for nine months
In the womb of the hag Caridwen;
I was originally little Gwion,
And at length I am Taliesin."


There's a link for the above "accurate observations of ancient skywatchers" that goes to this book which links Celtic gods to comets:

https://www.amazon.com/exec/ob...4446/morieninstitute

Orion is big in UFO/alien lore. We are overdue for an Ice Age too. Perhaps both UFO and comet omens will intensify under Orion's rule.

A little channeling:

quote:
Q: In reading the transcripts, I came across a reference to a 'pact' made by a group of STS individuals, and it was called 'Rosteem,' and that this was the origin of the Rosicrucians. In the book 'The Orion Mystery,' it talks about the fact that Giza was formerly known as RosTau, which is 'Rose Cross.' Essentially, I would like to understand the symbology of the Rose affixed to the Cross. It seems to me that the imagery of Jesus nailed to the Cross is actually the Rose affixed to the Cross. How does Jesus relate to the Rose?

A: No, it is from the Rose arose the Cross.

[quote]Q: Another derivation of the word root of Scorpio is 'skopos,' or 'to see.' You said that the human race was seeded on a planet in the constellation Scorpio, and, therefore, when the zodiac was set up and the clues were laid out, it seems to me that the insertion of the sign of Libra was designed to take power away from human beings, to take their hands away, to prevent them from seeing, to make them defenseless. Is this imagery close?

A: On track.

Q: And the Scorpion is represented in four ways: the scorpion, the lizard, the eagle and the dove. So, there are four levels of experience. Also, Minerva/Athena was the daughter of Zeus alone. She was known as the 'tamer of horses,' and was a Virgin Goddess. She was also known as 'Parthenos' meaning separation. Is this part of the imagery of the creation of Eve from the rib of Adam, so to speak, or the separation of knowledge from soul, or the veil between the world of 3rd density and 4th density?

A: Close.

Q: (L) The next question in the list is: You indicated that we should study the legend of Orion, and I looked it up in several sources, and basically the legend is of the perfect man, who fell in love with a woman, and her jealous father caused him to be blinded. The only cure was to gaze at the light, the goddess Aurora, to regain his sight. Can you tell us how this relates to the idea that Orion was the indigenous home of humans?

A: It is up to you to look for answers.

Q: (L) There was an interesting reference in one of the books of the relationship of Orion to Scorpio, that Orion's bow is drawn at Scorpio.



A: Is that your origin?

Q: You mean Orion?

A: Interesting the word root similarity, yes?
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Acts 9:1-2
Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.


That sounds great.

Except for one thing:

Why would the Syrians permit the Sanhedrin to send a squad of hitmen into its territory to kidnap and murder its citizens, even if they were immigrants?

quote:
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qumran
the excavations there have not revealed any synagogues.


Can't find your site. However, I think you will find it was highly unlikely there would be many synagogues in Israel at that time.

https://www.pri.org/stories/20...ue-dating-time-jesus
Recently, archaeologists working in the area made an amazing discovery: an ancient synagogue, one of only seven ever found that date to the time of Jesus.

Don't see the point of this, either. Whether they were a breakaway Sadducee sect, or indeed the Essenes, they still followed some version of Judaism.
[/QUOTE]
 
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Originally posted by Vicki:
Originally, archaeologists stated that the destruction occurred in 1550 BC, well before Joshua and the Israelites arrived. This has been disputed, though.


Disputed? By whom and where?

https://www.ancient.eu/article/951/early-jericho/
Bronze Age Jericho fell in the 16th century around 1573 BCE when it was violently destroyed by an earthquake. Charred wood found at the site suggests that the remains of the city were burned. Buried food supplies also suggest that it was not captured following a siege. It remained unoccupied until the late 10th century or early 9th century BCE when it was rebuilt.

Are you aware that Jericho is regarded as one of the first sites of human settlement, dating back to 9600BC, with evidence it had been used as a camping ground centuries earlier?

Plenty of evidence of an earthquake, but none whatsoever of Noah's Flood.

quote:
One of the points that the Lord made, was that He was giving the Israelites towns that they did not have to build themselves, which is another reason why there is so little evidence of the Canaanite invasion.


https://www.haaretz.com/archae...an-been-fo-1.6432817
No archaeological evidence has ever been found of the migration of the Israelites from the wilderness of Sinai via the Jordan Valley to the fertile land of Canaan, as described in the Bible. Nor has evidence of the pitched battles the Israelites were said to have had, as described by the Prophet Joshua, with the locals, whether in Jericho or elsewhere.

As I understand it, there is enough evidence of nomadic herders, perhaps those Israelites though possibly Bedouin-type herders, building permanent settlements in the Canaan hills then moving down into the valleys after the earlier residents left following seismic disturbances.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Israel was a real nation. It was a great nation for a short period of time.


Hardly a great nation, given those around it.

Of course you are talking about Israel under the apostate Baal-worshipping House of Omri, after the 10 tribes rebelled and left in disgust when the Davidic Jews decided they should rule all.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
The Hebrew term used in Numbers 22:22 for angel of the LORD is yod-hey-vav-hey mem-lamed-alef-kaf (YHWH Malakh).
In English, the term "malakh" can mean angel or messenger.


And, of course, the Bible refers to that angel as a satan, doesn't it.

https://www.jesuswordsonly.com...d-the-adversary.html
The first mention of Satan in the Bible is in Numbers 22:22 in Balaam's encounter with an Angel of the Lord. We contend that "Satan" here was then a good Angel of the Lord, and had not yet fallen, which did not take place until either Ezekiel's day or when Jesus saw him falling from heaven like lightning in the 1st Century AD.
 
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Originally posted by bluelamp:
The translation of the riddle-poem "Hanes Taliesin" below is reproduced exactly as printed in the book "The White Goddess" by Robert Graves. All spellings and use of upper and lower cases are as they appear in the book, which must rank as one of the most important contributions to our understanding of 'the triple goddess' concept that was a central feature of the beliefs of many ancient cultures. In archaic times this seems to have been a global phenomena, as attested to by the abundance of 'earth goddess' artifacts discovered all over the world. In many areas, where evidence of hurriedly abandoned settlement has shown the existence of past civilisation, some of these figurines would have been treasured possessions.


I was referring to this from Gollum:

Voiceless it cries,
Wingless flutters,
Toothless bites,
Mouthless mutters.


Compared with:

The strong creature from before the Flood
Without flesh, without bone,
Without vein, without blood,
Without head, without feet …
In field, in forest…
Without hand, without foot.
It is also as wide
As the surface of the earth,
And it was not born,
Nor was it seen …


quote:
She was the personification of the Earth at its different seasons, and the various names of the 'the triple goddess' commonly used in many ancient cultures are names that are descriptive of the Earth at those seasons. The interaction between the 'Earth Mother' and the 'Sky Father' throughout the course of the natural (solar) year was a matter of great concern to ancient peoples all over the world, and was the focus of their cosmologies, which governed their science and religion. It is not surprising therefore that their oral traditions are steeped in sky lore, which, when de-coded, is increasingly proving to contain the accurate observations of ancient skywatchers, as is evident in the riddle-poem below.


One of my problems I am trying to solve is how to communicate the meaning of mythology to people essentially cut off from Mother Nature in the huge cities, people who rarely if ever see the night sky as our forefathers did?

I go out at night to look at the sky, then come in to see a TV image of the sky as seen from some dark isolated site.

No comparison.

Then, as I did on another thread, one has to ask how Christians would cope with the thought that the Jesus stable-birth scene we are all so familiar with is straight astrology: the sheep Aries, the calf Taurus, the donkey Cancer, the manger representing the Sun in Leo, the Magis' presents frankincense for Mercury, gold for Jupiter, myrrh for Saturn.
Signs in the Sky by Adrian Gilbert.

quote:
Orion is big in UFO/alien lore. We are overdue for an Ice Age too. Perhaps both UFO and comet omens will intensify under Orion's rule.


That is another key issue for me. From my life in newspapers I always had a fair idea of what was going on world-wide. Never have I seen such a mess as today; corrupt politicians supporting crooked corporations as they destroy our entire environment.

quote:
Another derivation of the word root of Scorpio is 'skopos,' or 'to see.' You said that the human race was seeded on a planet in the constellation Scorpio, and, therefore, when the zodiac was set up and the clues were laid out, it seems to me that the insertion of the sign of Libra was designed to take power away from human beings, to take their hands away, to prevent them from seeing, to make them defenseless. Is this imagery close?


How would it be possible to educate the orthodox scientists and religionists to understand we may indeed be entering a New Age, one we will have to deal with intelligently and spiritually?

Maybe you could ask your channellers whence came this oft-repeated notion that humans were to be denied knowledge?

6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

Along with Zeus' punishment of Prometheus.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
The Hebrew term used in Numbers 22:22 for angel of the LORD is yod-hey-vav-hey mem-lamed-alef-kaf (YHWH Malakh).
In English, the term "malakh" can mean angel or messenger.


And, of course, the Bible refers to that angel as a satan, doesn't it.

https://www.jesuswordsonly.com...d-the-adversary.html
The first mention of Satan in the Bible is in Numbers 22:22 in Balaam's encounter with an Angel of the Lord. We contend that "Satan" here was then a good Angel of the Lord, and had not yet fallen, which did not take place until either Ezekiel's day or when Jesus saw him falling from heaven like lightning in the 1st Century AD.


Vicki:
It is an interesting theory, except that Numbers 22:22 isn't "The first mention of Satan in the Bible". The angel of the Lord was standing in the road in front of Balaam's donkey, with sword drawn and acting as an adversary, in Hebrew "satan".

It is more likely that the angel of the Lord is a theophany, a physical manifestation of God.


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Originally posted by Allan:
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Originally posted by Vicki:
Israel was a real nation. It was a great nation for a short period of time.


Hardly a great nation, given those around it.

Of course you are talking about Israel under the apostate Baal-worshipping House of Omri, after the 10 tribes rebelled and left in disgust when the Davidic Jews decided they should rule all.


Vicki:
Actually, I was referring to united Israel under the reigns of Saul, David, and Solomon. United Israel was subject to divisions, but David was able to bring about national unity. However, Solomon and his very high taxes caused divisions already there, to widen. His son Rehoboam's threat to increase the taxes was the final straw.


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Vicki
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
Maybe you could ask your channellers whence came this oft-repeated notion that humans were to be denied knowledge?

6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

Along with Zeus' punishment of Prometheus.


From my channeling group:

quote:
One other account referred by Robert Graves[5] (who claims to be following the account of the Byzantine mythographer Tzetzes) it is said that Cronus was castrated by his son Zeus just like he had done with his father Uranus before. However the subject of a son castrating his own father, or simply castration in general, was so repudiated by the Greek mythographers of that time that they suppressed it from their accounts until the Christian era (when Tzetzes wrote).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus

Oops, we posted at almost the same time.

The important thing about the Chronus/Zeus event is the Titanomachy followed by the "settling down" of things.

In a vast war called the Titanomachy, Zeus and his brothers and sisters, with the help of the Hecatonchires, and Cyclopes, overthrew Cronus and the other Titans. Afterwards, many of the Titans were confined in Tartarus. However, Atlas, Epimetheus, Helios, Menoetius, Oceanus and Prometheus were not imprisoned following the Titanomachy. Gaia bore the monster Typhon to claim revenge for the imprisoned Titans.

If you have read "Comets and the Horns of Moses", you'll know what "being imprisoned in Tartarus possibly means. Part of it has to do with Mars being driven back into a more distant orbit and the cessation of extreme hostilities between all the stuff flying about in the sky and bombarding the earth.


quote:
Q: (L) Well, according to the postmodernists, there is no objective reality. They say that everything people think is completely culturally conditioned, and one truth is no more true than another truth or whatever.

A: That will backfire tragically. Think "Tower of Babel."

Q: (L) So, in other words, this whole postmodernist conception of there being no objective truth is similar to the attempt to build a Tower of Babel?

A: Yes.

Q: (Joe) The Tower of Babel was to be unable to speak the same language.

(Andromeda) It was to reach heaven.

(L) They were joining together to build this tower in order to reach heaven, and then God made them all speak different languages and scattered them all over. So the “unification of the masses” under the umbrella of Postmodernism has its own seeds of destruction of society contained within?

A: Right. Think of the strong fascist trend of the modern left.

Q: (L) Like the anti-smoking thing and trying to force vegetarianism, and “cultural diversity” and so forth. They have decided that they will arbitrate what people shall and shall not do under the guise of accepting all and anything that people might or might not do. It’s utterly bizarre. I'm trying to get through this Detmer book I'm reading about it but it’s difficult to imagine people coming up with things that are so retarded; I think it’s safe to say they are schizoid psychopaths because the thinking style is so characteristic. And they miss the big flaw: If everything is culturally conditioned or if there is no objective truth, then what a leftist says is equally culturally conditioned and as subject to the same conditions that what they say is not true either...

(Andromeda) Right. It should be...

(Pierre) The similarity with the Tower of Babel is that those people got together to become gods. It's the same as what the left is doing because they deny nature and the objective nature of the universe. And then they create “their” truth, and what they say is the truth, so they replace god.

(L) So in other words, this whole left attempt to take over our world is sort of what 2nd Thessalonians referred to as man attempting to take the seat of god in the temple, so to speak?

A: Yes. The Beast.

Q: (L) Okay, well that's pretty interesting; there’s a lot of beastliness in our world today. I was reminded when I was thinking about all of this postmodernism and this Jungian business about something that was said in a session back in 2002 or 2001 or whenever; it was about frequency resonance vibration. And then there were mentions in the transcripts about frequency resonance robots and frequency resonance pied pipers. Basically, then it was said that the plan was to get bodies to resonate in such a way that 4D STS could download directly - if only temporarily - into this reality. So, is that what is happening with a lot of these groups of leftists and postmodernists inspired by Jung and the postmodernist philosophers and sociologists?

A: Indeed. But do not get misled by labels because the right has similar tendencies.

Q: (Joe) In terms of downloading or getting possessed by something or other, you'd imagine that that would be facilitated by someone who willfully asserts or accepts that they have no fixed identity. You'd think an impediment to something taking you over would be a strong conviction that you have a strong identity from a sexual or cultural basis.

A: Recall the context of the "Pied Piper" remarks.
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vicki:
Acts 9:1-2
Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.


Allan:
That sounds great.

Except for one thing:

Why would the Syrians permit the Sanhedrin to send a squad of hitmen into its territory to kidnap and murder its citizens, even if they were immigrants?

Vicki:
Actually, it could very well have been by permission of the Roman Empire for the high priest in Jerusalem to be allowed to send Saul and his men in pursuit of people who had fled the persecution in Jerusalem.

There was a precedent set in the time of the Maccabees.
1 Maccabees 15:21
Therefore, if any troublemakers have run away to your lands from their country, hand them over to the high priest Simon. Then he can punish them according to Jewish law.
https://www.biblegateway.com/v...0Maccabees%2015%3A21

Josephus speaks of a special favors being granted in Julius Caesar's day to the high priest of Jerusalem and his descendants.

Josephus: Jewish Antiquities, Book 14
[190] G "Caius Julius Caesar, imperator and high priest, and dictator the second time, to the magistrates, senate, and people of Sidon, sendeth greeting. If you be in health, it is well. I also and the army are well. [191] I have sent you a copy of that decree, registered on the tables, which concerns Hyrcanus, the son of Alexander, the high priest and ethnarch of the Jews, that it may be laid up among the public records; and I will that it be openly proposed in a table of brass, both in Greek and in Latin. It is as follows: [192] G I Julius Caesar, imperator the second time, and high priest, have made this decree, with the approbation of the senate. Whereas Hyrcanus, the son of Alexander the Jew, hath demonstrated his fidelity and diligence about our affairs, and this both now and in former times, both in peace and in war, as many of our generals have borne witness, [193] and came to our assistance in the last Alexandrian war, with fifteen hundred soldiers; and when he was sent by me to Mithridates, showed himself superior in valour to all the rest of that army; - [194] G for these reasons I will that Hyrcanus, the son of Alexander, and his children, be ethnarchs of the Jews, and have the high priesthood of the Jews for ever, according to the customs of their forefathers, and that he and his sons be our confederates; and that besides this, everyone of them be reckoned among our particular friends. [195] I also ordain that he and his children retain whatsoever privileges belong to the office of high priest, or whatsoever favours have been hitherto granted them; and if at any time hereafter there arise any questions about the Jewish customs, I will that he determine the same. And I think it not proper that they should be obliged to find us winter quarters, or that any money should be required of them."
www.attalus.org/old/aj_14b.html


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Bronze Age Jericho fell in the 16th century around 1573 BCE when it was violently destroyed by an earthquake. Charred wood found at the site suggests that the remains of the city were burned. Buried food supplies also suggest that it was not captured following a siege. It remained unoccupied until the late 10th century or early 9th century BCE when it was rebuilt.


Actually, this is very consistent with what the Bible describes. There wasn't any siege. The walls fell down after the people had marched around them for seven days. According to Joshua 6:24, after removing Rahab and her family and their possessions,

"Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the LORD's house."

The Israelites did not move into Jericho. According to Joshua 6:26
At that time Joshua pronounced this solemn oath: "Cursed before the LORD is the man who undertakes to rebuild this city, Jericho: "at the cost of his firstborn son will he lay its foundations; at the cost of his youngest will he set up its gates."


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Originally posted by Vicki:
It is an interesting theory, except that Numbers 22:22 isn't "The first mention of Satan in the Bible". The angel of the Lord was standing in the road in front of Balaam's donkey, with sword drawn and acting as an adversary, in Hebrew "satan".
It is more likely that the angel of the Lord is a theophany, a physical manifestation of God.


If naming that Adversary as a satan is not the first mention of an adversary in the Bible, Vicki, what is?
 
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Originally posted by Vicki:
Actually, I was referring to united Israel under the reigns of Saul, David, and Solomon. United Israel was subject to divisions, but David was able to bring about national unity. However, Solomon and his very high taxes caused divisions already there, to widen. His son Rehoboam's threat to increase the taxes was the final straw.


Can you please provide archaeological sources to counter all the archaeological evidence indicating that, if he did exist, David amounted to little more than, as the Bible does say, a mercenary out for hire to anyone prepared to pay him.

As a Brit, I have to say the equally legendary King Arthur was an infinitely greater symbol than David ever could be. Can't find it quickly, but did read some years ago the original Arthur may have been connected to the time when the original builders of Stonehenge, which though built much earlier, shows no trace whatsoever of Noah's flood, came into conflict with Bell Beaker Culture immigrants.

We'd be far better off following the Jewish example and sticking with our own culture and history.
 
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Originally posted by Vicki:
Actually, it could very well have been by permission of the Roman Empire for the high priest in Jerusalem to be allowed to send Saul and his men in pursuit of people who had fled the persecution in Jerusalem.
There was a precedent set in the time of the Maccabees.
1 Maccabees 15:21
Therefore, if any troublemakers have run away to your lands from their country, hand them over to the high priest Simon. Then he can punish them according to Jewish law.
https://www.biblegateway.com/v...0Maccabees%2015%3A21
[QUOTE]Josephus speaks of a special favors being granted in Julius Caesar's day to the high priest of Jerusalem and his descendants.
Josephus: Jewish Antiquities, Book 14
[190] G "Caius Julius Caesar, imperator and high priest, and dictator the second time, to the magistrates, senate, and people of Sidon, sendeth greeting. If you be in health, it is well. I also and the army are well. [191] I have sent you a copy of that decree, registered on the tables, which concerns Hyrcanus, the son of Alexander, the high priest and ethnarch of the Jews, that it may be laid up among the public records; and I will that it be openly proposed in a table of brass, both in Greek and in Latin. It is as follows: [192] G I Julius Caesar, imperator the second time, and high priest, have made this decree, with the approbation of the senate. Whereas Hyrcanus, the son of Alexander the Jew, hath demonstrated his fidelity and diligence about our affairs, and this both now and in former times, both in peace and in war, as many of our generals have borne witness, [193] and came to our assistance in the last Alexandrian war, with fifteen hundred soldiers; and when he was sent by me to Mithridates, showed himself superior in valour to all the rest of that army; - [194] G for these reasons I will that Hyrcanus, the son of Alexander, and his children, be ethnarchs of the Jews, and have the high priesthood of the Jews for ever, according to the customs of their forefathers, and that he and his sons be our confederates; and that besides this, everyone of them be reckoned among our particular friends. [195] I also ordain that he and his children retain whatsoever privileges belong to the office of high priest, or whatsoever favours have been hitherto granted them; and if at any time hereafter there arise any questions about the Jewish customs, I will that he determine the same. And I think it not proper that they should be obliged to find us winter quarters, or that any money should be required of them."
www.attalus.org/old/aj_14b.html


How do you justify this interpretation, Vicki?

From my lifetime in and around politics and politicians I see no connection whatsoever between a deal done by Romans rewarding a collaborator, and Jewish religious leaders independently sending a hit squad into a foreign country.

What am I missing?

Especially since Josephus seems to be referring only to troublemakers having run away "to your lands from their country". In other words, invaders.

Hardly the same thing at all, is it.

I note, too, it seems the Sanhedrin could not even put Herodes on trial. Am I reading that correctly?

Am I right in wondering why you, a Protestant, are using Maccabees? I thought it had been rejected long ago.

https://www.biblegateway.com/p...1%3A1-15&version=GNT
At that time there appeared in the land of Israel a group of traitorous Jews who had no regard for the Law and who had a bad influence on many of our people. They said,
Let's come to terms with the Gentiles, for our refusal to associate with them has brought us nothing but trouble. 12 This proposal appealed to many people, 13 and some of them became so enthusiastic about it that they went to the king and received from him permission to follow Gentile customs. 14 They built in Jerusalem a stadium like those in the Greek cities. 15 They had surgery performed to hide their circumcision, abandoned the holy covenant, started associating with[b] Gentiles, and did all sorts of other evil things.

Am I wrong in reading this as a devout Jewish attack on pragmatic Jews who sensibly chose to become Hellenised?

If so, that would explain a great deal.
 
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Originally posted by Allan:
I note, too, it seems the Sanhedrin could not even put Herodes on trial. Am I reading that correctly?...

Am I wrong in reading this as a devout Jewish attack on pragmatic Jews who sensibly chose to become Hellenised?

If so, that would explain a great deal.

The Epistles are much more reliable than Acts. Paul was a Herodian/Pharisee and they tended to persecute the recruiting revolutionary Jews whenever they ran into each other. Paul traveled a lot and Damascus could certainly be a place where it happened since the Dead Sea Scroll revolutionaries were fixated on Damascus.

Funny thing about the Maccabees forced devotion to the Jewish Bible is that the Torah likely had been created by a Hellenized Jew using the Alexandria library as a way to uplift Jews who felt downtrodden by the negative depiction of Jews by Manetho. Paul too was Hellenized and had his work used against the future Hellenized/Gnostic Christians. Hellenized/Gnostic writing is sort of too easy to misuse.
 
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