Aantares    Aantares BB  Hop To Forum Categories  Your Lifestyle & Culture  Hop To Forums  Religion & Spirituality    Biblical Scholar: Dont take Bible literally
      Page: 1 ... 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 ... 37
Go To
Post
Search BB
Notify Me
TOS/Tools/Smilies
Reply
  
Biblical Scholar: Dont take Bible literally
 Login/Register
 
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Vicki:
Are you suggesting that Lilith is holy?
I can understand if you are saying that Shekhina, the presence of God manifested as His glory, is holy but how does that relate to the character of pagan gods and goddesses?
I don't understand your reference to Ish Milchama in this context. You will need to elaborate.

Allan:
You keep accusing me of repeating myself, yet here you are asking me to repeat myself. It will take me some time to show that our human deities are exactly like the Bible ones.

Care to explain the difference between the Bible angels and the minor deities of all other religions?


Vicki:
The angels in the Bible were created by God. According to the Bible, they serve as His messengers and engage in battle, according to God's direction. We know very few of them by name. They can strengthen believers. The angels that are faithful to God do not accept worship. There are some whose duties involve giving worship to God and glorify Him, full time.

Allan:
Regardless of how the later Judaism and Christianity evolved, it all began the same way every other mythologies began. The Bible God originated as a war (Ish Milchama) and storm deity.

Vicki:
Just by going according to what the Bible says, the God of the Bible did not "originate". He always was, is, and will be. He has no beginning and no end. He is eternal and non-contingent. He is the Creator who created the heavens and the earth from nothing, just by speaking. This is no storm god and no war god (Ish Milchama). He does fight for His people, though.

Allan:
I do not know how far down it stretches, but those at the top of the Creationist/Intelligent Design heap know they are teaching lies.

Vicki:
Nope. That is your skepticism talking. This is one of your presuppositions. You have no proof of this, but you accept this as one of your "givens". You cannot see into their hearts, yet you ascribe bad motives to them.

Allan:
Literalism teaches the serpent in that garden in Eden was a fallen angel. That is an outright lie. If anything, it was a trickster in line with the Coyote, Loki, the Raven, and others.


Vicki:
We literalists look at what was written in Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 about the ancient serpent being the devil or Satan. It isn't a lie to believe what our Scripture says. I understand, though, if you are saying that our Scripture is lying.

Allan:
Despite the changes in Judaism following first the exile then the diaspora, devout Jews today still say it is blasphemy to say the Tanakh has anything at all about any angelic rebellion.

Vicki:
According to the Jewish sources that you picked. Did it occur to you that they might be incorrect? I think I understand their claim. They don't believe that God created angels who could rebel.

Allan:
Reality is, various snakes are given metaphorical meaning in countless religions. Given its importance in the all-powerful Egypt, is is easy to see how Hebrews would want to condemn it.

Vicki:
Is this part of your conspiracy theory of Hebrew priests creating Scriptures on their own? That is a wide umbrella that you are opening if you are now including in their writings, subtle criticism of Egypt's use of snakes into the story of the Fall. I thought you were claiming a Mesopotamian source for the story. That would mean that these Hebrew priests were quite eclectic!

Allan:
The serpent also is a symbol of wisdom,


Vicki:
I understand that is true in many cultures. I also understand that with your knowledge of mythology, you can see a common theme in regard to the serpent/snake. No wonder you see the serpent in Genesis in a different light than we literalist Christians. Especially, as the Genesis story mentions the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Vicki:Allan: How can we be responsible for our sins when you insist it is your Christian Devil which imposes them on us?Vicki: You have misunderstood me. I have not said that the devil imposes sin upon us. I said that he can tempt us, playing on our desires. That is not imposing sin upon us. So your deity created us vulnerable to the machinations of an angel he created yet was unable to control.So who, then, is in charge of us?Where, exactly, did "sin" come from, and what exactly is it?


Vicki:
God created Adam and Eve with the ability to choose. Since He is all- knowing, He knew that the serpent would tempt them and they would follow their own desires and choose to disobey Him. God worked this into His plan. According to the NT, He planned sending us our Redeemer from the beginning. Sin, disobeying God's rule(s) entered into our world through Adam and Eve.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Allan:
IIRC you said your husband does not see himself as a sinner. Did you answer my following question: does he see himself capable of doing wrong things?

Vicki
You are correct in that my husband does not see himself as a sinner. He acknowledges that he does wrong things once in awhile, but he doesn't acknowledge the spiritual ramifications because he doesn't believe that he has a soul or that God exists. Therefore, he doesn't realize that he will be held accountable and face judgment when the time comes. He holds the view that many people do, that if God should happen to exist and he does have a soul, he would be alright, as he can point to many others who do worse things than him. He believes that justice would grade on a curve and he would be found acceptable- well at least more acceptable than some of those around him.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Allan: We have no idea why God was angry with Israel. All we do know is he was angry, and somehow got David to conduct his census apparently not in accord with the clear guidelines laid down earlier in the Bible.So, was God really angry, or did his priests simply having to explain that plague?

Vicki:
I think that David did something that made God angry, but that issue was not stated in the Scriptures.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
I am not playing battle of the sources with you. If you want to engage in conversation please bring your own thoughts, ideas, conclusions, and your reasoning.


You are being either evasive or emotionally silly, Vicki.

All I have said from the beginning many years ago is my own thoughts, ideas, conclusions, and reasoning.

Difference is, mine is based on decades of reading a wide, eclectic, range of sources, unlike your emotional need to stick with those sources which meet your needs.

More importantly, perhaps, I can provide a wide range of sources, not all of which I agree with, but all of which point in the right direction -- finding the truth.


Vicki:
By requiring me to provide non-Christian sources, I believe that you are attempting to manipulate my responses. If you are trying to win some kind of debate, instead of engaging in a conversation about Christianity, that would be the way to do it.

I want to have a discussion, not some kind of debate. I am not out to prove my position and persuade you. I want to give the reasons for why I believe the way that I do. I don't mind reading your reasons and sources because they help me to understand where you are coming from. I disagree with them, most of the time, but they are your reasons.

I love studying the Bible. It demonstrates the qualities and character of God, whom I love. God's Word has a spiritual effect on me for the good of my soul and I interact with God through the medium of Scripture. I recognize its authority, which I understand that non-believers are unable to do.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
How about addressing my point? How can you accept the idea that a group of Jewish scholars colluded together to create the Law, pull together a back story from various mythologies, create a history and court accounts, produce lyrical poetry prose and wisdom literature and liturgy, and not get called out by the Jewish people about it? Somehow this great conspiracy was not discovered until modern times? This seems reasonable to you?


Getting late, so I might be repeating myself.

If you actually understood the history of mythology, dating back tens of thousands of years, you would have no problem at all here.

That is how things work, how they always have worked.

Oh, and it is not a recent discovery. Those in the know have been well aware of this for a very long time.

You really do need to get your head around how our leaders manipulate us. Take a long hard look at Trump and see if you can work out what he is up to.

quote:
The God of the Old Testament is presented as the Creator who spoke the heavens and the earth into existence. What deity from your extensive research into mythology did the Jewish scholars get this idea from? What mythology did the Jewish scholars get the idea that there is only one true God and all the rest are fakes?


Straight politics. The Hebrews were an insignificant group in terms of the real powers of the time. Not hard to see why they would, after being so insignificant for so long, create a mythology which, in their minds, made them the best.

quote:
The God of the Old Testament is presented as the God over all - not just the Hebrews, but over the nations as well. Which mythology is this idea derived from?


Far too complex for you at this stage.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike are taught the one and only monotheistic deity revealed himself to Abraham some 4000 years ago.

Reality, as all student of mythology know, is many religions begin with a sole creator deity.

Two which had major impacts on the much later Judaism were Sumer and Egypt.

Sumer had Anu, Egypt had Atum.

quote:
Your knowledge of mythology is far more extensive than mine. Is there a god or goddess who tells his or her people, "I have loved you with an everlasting love" , as God has?


We created our deities in large part as protectors of our environment. I doubt you have any knowledge of their significance. Fertility deities were, so they all believed, essential to survival. Just as Adonai responded appropriately to the smell of burnt flesh, they, too, rewarded us with good weather, fertile fields.

All perfectly straightforward.

Show me one single deity who did not love humans, after they at first, just like Adonai, regretted creating us.

The Sumerian deities, at least, had a reasonable excuse.

Our partying kept them awake at night.

What excuse did Adonai have?
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
I am not playing battle of the sources with you. If you want to engage in conversation please bring your own thoughts, ideas, conclusions, and your reasoning.


Now you really are being insulting.

What right do you have to demean me in this way? It was bad enough when you lied that I was "assuming". Now you are alleging I am not bringing my own thoughts here, just because, unlike you, I have been trained to provide my sources instead of just shooting my mouth off or parroting indoctrinations.

To repeat a couple of things:

You have found a solution to your problems, and I suggested years ago I am the wrong person for you to talk with.

It is none of my business what anyone believes, unless they interfere with me and an admittedly broad mine.

Bible Literalism does just that. It interferes with learning.

Much of my life has been involved in one form of teaching or another. Having never played sport, I had to read up on football training when I was asked to help out at our local club. Had to learn how to teach.

When I moved into journalism, it was not long before I was in a position to have to teach our cadet reporters, including university-trained ones.

Having to deal with all the different types of people, my early amateur interest in human psychology had to expand, so more learning on my part. You know me well enough by now to know that my mind is genetically programmed to ask questions, and the more answers I found led to more questions, a never-ending task.

Not long after I retired I spent some 15 years as a volunteer tutor in schools and a college. By the looks of it, I am on the way back to that this year.

One thing among what I have learned in all this is Conspiracy Theory is not the joke I thought it was after one recognises just who the real villains are.

Critical thinking and analytical thinking have all but disappeared, and competent Year 11 and 12 students are unable to understand selected stories in my Grade V primary school reader.

Politics, religion, and how people think about these has been my main interest all my life. Having been born in a country which for centuries was split by religion and politics had much to do with this. A higher percentage of the Scots, Irish, and English population died during the Civil War than died in WWI.

The origins of the USA were different, Protestant Pilgrims and Puritans controlled the country, and the bulk of the Founding Fathers were Deists, not necessarily either Protestant or Catholic. Close enough to my own way of thinking.

Vicki: God created Adam and Eve with the ability to choose. Since He is all- knowing, He knew that the serpent would tempt them and they would follow their own desires and choose to disobey Him. God worked this into His plan. According to the NT, He planned sending us our Redeemer from the beginning. Sin, disobeying God's rule(s) entered into our world through Adam and Eve.

Seems you need to ignore the Bible statement that Adonai regretted creating us and set out to destroy us. Seems he did not know what would eventuate in the imaginary garden in Eden.

It is all in the book Adonai gave, at first, to his Chosen People alone. Your imaginary idea that the deity created for one culture must be imposed on everyone, whether they want it or not, is just that, imaginary.

Just leave people alone to find their own spiritual path. Yours can not work for everyone.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Are you suggesting that Lilith is holy?


Don't ask me. Ask any modern Jew where Lilith fits in.

quote:

Vicki: The angels in the Bible were created by God. According to the Bible, they serve as His messengers and engage in battle, according to God's direction. We know very few of them by name. They can strengthen believers. The angels that are faithful to God do not accept worship. There are some whose duties involve giving worship to God and glorify Him, full time.


Adonai created his angels for exactly the same reasons the other creator deities created their lesser deities.

quote:
Just by going according to what the Bible says, the God of the Bible did not "originate". He always was, is, and will be. He has no beginning and no end. He is eternal and non-contingent. He is the Creator who created the heavens and the earth from nothing, just by speaking. This is no storm god and no war god (Ish Milchama). He does fight for His people, though.


Just as all other original creator deities did. Like Adonai, they needed underlings to take care of what they did not have time for.

He just does not give them the credit they deserve.

Why does he need them at all, do you think?

quote:
Nope. That is your skepticism talking. This is one of your presuppositions. You have no proof of this, but you accept this as one of your "givens". You cannot see into their hearts, yet you ascribe bad motives to them.


There you go again with your cheap shots. Put it down to the simple fact that I have read far more than you have of the Creationist lies, and have the training to recognise how they use our language to con the gullible and keep the dollars rolling in.

quote:
According to the Jewish sources that you picked. Did it occur to you that they might be incorrect? I think I understand their claim. They don't believe that God created angels who could rebel.


Another cheap shot.

Jews know because they are God's Chosen People, and understand what their God told them.

You are not in the hunt even to try refuting what devout Jews know about the Tanakh.

You do not even know what they know, and why they know it.

quote:
Is this part of your conspiracy theory of Hebrew priests creating Scriptures on their own? That is a wide umbrella that you are opening if you are now including in their writings, subtle criticism of Egypt's use of snakes into the story of the Fall. I thought you were claiming a Mesopotamian source for the story. That would mean that these Hebrew priests were quite eclectic!


How often must I repeat myself to make it clear to you?

The Hebrew religion is an amalgam of many sources. Do you even know what the Fertile Crescent is? They spent much of their time in the nomadic travels there.

quote:
Vicki: I understand that is true in many cultures. I also understand that with your knowledge of mythology, you can see a common theme in regard to the serpent/snake. No wonder you see the serpent in Genesis in a different light than we literalist Christians. Especially, as the Genesis story mentions the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.


What on earth has that Tree got to do with it? Do you even know what it signifies?

How close do you think it might be to Yggdrasil? The Bodhi Tree? Or even the significance of so many other trees in mythologies?
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
You are correct in that my husband does not see himself as a sinner. He acknowledges that he does wrong things once in awhile, but he doesn't acknowledge the spiritual ramifications because he doesn't believe that he has a soul or that God exists. Therefore, he doesn't realize that he will be held accountable and face judgment when the time comes. He holds the view that many people do, that if God should happen to exist and he does have a soul, he would be alright, as he can point to many others who do worse things than him. He believes that justice would grade on a curve and he would be found acceptable- well at least more acceptable than some of those around him.


Are you one of those Christians convinced that your deity has created a Hell where all those who either did not know of him, or chose to follow a different spiritual path will spend eternity being tortured and tormented by the devils and imps he created for just that purpose?

BTW it was not David Adonai was angry with, it was Israel.

Was it God, his faithful ha-satan, or the Christian Devil whoo tricked David into conducting that census?

By requiring me to provide non-Christian sources, I believe that you are attempting to manipulate my responses. If you are trying to win some kind of debate, instead of engaging in a conversation about Christianity, that would be the way to do it.

You are under the wrong impression. I was never here solely to hear your interpretation of Christianity, any more than I was there on that other forum to to do that with the posse.

I am here to learn what I can about how people are taught their version of Christianity, and see how it all pans out.

3.30am, so I'm off to bed.

see y'all.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Here to stay...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Fell from what, exactly?

So far as I can tell, we all got along for hundreds of thousands of years until we built cities and moved from common ownership to private ownership.

That, if anything, was the cause of any fall.

Private ownership and the Holy Almighty Dollar.

Fell from being more naturally connected to the timeless dreamtime aka it used to be very easy aka no drugs or difficult to do trance states required.

quote:
Who did Cain have to fear? What people were there to threaten him?
What Cain had to fear were the new passions Stoics warn against aka alone without the dreamtime aka what killed Abel aka private ownership greed.

quote:
But then, we do have Tubal Cain, and we know just how important alchemical smiths were, don't we.

The cross is the Mark of Cain... The Mark of Cain, or cross, symbolizes a hammer, for Cain was a Worker in Metals, which is what a practitioner of Alchemical Sorcery is called.

Close. The cross is the Maori kite psychic communication we lost when we got the Mark of Cain. Alchemy is getting it back which is related to time travel hence why alchemists are suspected of being time travelers. My favorite channeler was actually the next door neighbor of the only student of one of Fulcanelli's students and her publishing company published his book on Fulcanelli. From my channeling group:

quote:
Q: (L) The Maori origin of kites. Why did the Maori fly kites?
A: To attempt communication with Gods.

Q: (M) With respect to RV and chemical/magnetic alignments improving psychic abilities, can this be artificially induced by locally applied magnetic fields?
A: Dangerous to experiment with. Like Franklin and his kites.

What is the shape of a kite ?

Basically these are two sticks crossing. So we have 5 specific points : the 4 extremities of sticks and the crossing point.

Let’s keep in mind the shepherd crook configuration Laura mentioned and let’s have a look at the acupuncture points surrounding the crown chakra:

quote:
http: double slash okinawakenpodssi.com/extra_and_new_points.htm said:
Sishencong: Located on the top of the head, there are four points that make up this group of points. They are also sometimes called "the inner square" in kyusho. ‘Si’ meaning a group of four points, front back left and right, ‘Shen’ meaning spirit or mind and cong meaning to cause one to be smart or intelligent. If you find "Bahui" or GV 20, and take points on the four points of the compass 1 cun distance from GV 20 then you have this square of points surrounding Bahui.


So we have on the top of our heads a little energetic kite of which the center is our crown chakra.

Q: (L) Okay, guys, let's connect our brain cells here!
A: No need to connect "brain cells," using your chakras will do!

A: Stonehenge used to resonate with tonal rill, teaching the other wise unteachable with wisdoms entered psychically
through crown chakra transceiving system.


quote:
As for the mark of Cain, have you ever checked the tribal tattoos which identify one's clan?... His descendent tribe, were nomads... The Qenites tribal mark was a tattoo on their foreheads in honour of their progenitor, for they were and are intinerant goldsmiths, blacksmiths, carpenters, potters, peddlers, medicine men, entertainers, craftsmen, and magicians. They also did not shorn their hair, often braiding it in the Nazorite fashion. Cain's direct descendent today whether Tubal-Cain himself, or someone else of whom we know not, has this Mark of Cain, the cross, as a red birthmark on his chest or back.


quote:
Q: How many persons on the planet contain these convergent bloodlines?
A: 7367. Kites were used for cross communication between bloodline members.

Q: (L) Okay, at the time this "Mark of Cain" came about, were there other humans on the planet that did not have this configuration?
A: It was added to all simultaneously.
Q: (L) How did they physically go about performing this act? What was the mechanism of this event, the nuts and bolts of it?
A: Are you ready? DNA core is as yet undiscovered enzyme relating to carbon. Light waves were used to cancel the first ten factors of DNA by burning them off. At that point, a number of physical changes took place including knot at top of spine.

Q: What about this ALU repeat with over 300,000 copies of the same base pair sequence. What is it?
A: Tribal unit.
Q: What is a tribal unit?
A: Sectionalized zone of significant marker compounds.
Q: What does this code for?
A: Physiological/spiritual union profile.
Q: Could you define "tribal" for me?
A: You define.
Q: What does the rest of the DNA code for that is not coding for structural genes. What else can it be doing?
A: Truncated flow.
Q: Truncated flow of what?
A: Liquids.

Q: The other part of the dream was that I disappeared and reemerged from a cleft in a rock. I was cleaning... he went to investigate... and he returned and was crying and all this water was flowing out of there like a spring... What was the significance of this?
A: **Trace minerals interact with deeply held secrets. **

Q: Was my insight that I had one night that, at some point in time something may happen that will turn genes on in our bodies that will cause us to physically transform, an accurate perception of what could happen at the time of transition to 4th density?
A: For the most part, yes.
Q: Are there any limitations to what our physical bodies can transform to if instructed by the DNA? Could we literally grow taller, rejuvenate, change our physical appearance, capabilities, or whatever, if instructed by the DNA?
A: Receivership capability.
Q: What is receivership capability?
A: Change to broader receivership capability.
Q: (A) That means that you can receive more of something.
A: Close.
Q: (A) It means how good is your receiver.
A: Yes.
Q: (L) What is your receiver? The physical body?
A: Mind through central nervous system connection to higher levels.

Q: Okay, can you tell us what this specific liquid or transmitter was truncated?
A: Think of the most efficient conductor of chemical compounds for low wave frequency charge.
Q: (A) Well, gold is one... (L) Acetylcholine?
A: No.
Q: (L) Water?
A: No.
Q: Saline?
A: Closer. It is a naturally bonding combination.
Q: (L) Well, I'll have to research it...
So, at this point, I think that what was truncated may have had something to do with phosphorus and "chemical energy" flows because of the connection of phosphorus to ATP.
 
Posts: 1149 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Allan:
Are you one of those Christians convinced that your deity has created a Hell where all those who either did not know of him, or chose to follow a different spiritual path will spend eternity being tortured and tormented by the devils and imps he created for just that purpose?

Vicki:
I am one of those Christians who believe what the Bible says- that there will be a day when the dead are resurrected, whether they know God or not, and they will be judged. Their works and words will be examined. The Book of Life will be checked to see if their names are there. If not, they will be separated from God forever, in the Lake of Fire. From what Jesus said, there will be degrees of punishment, there.

There will be no imps and devils torturing people there. They will not be in charge. The torment comes from being separated from God, who is the source of goodness and grace and perhaps inner torment.

We all experience God's goodness and grace as we live on the earth, but so many people don't realize that this is from God. They credit chance, luck, self-effort or the efforts of others. Cut off from God's grace and goodness will be terrible.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Allan:
BTW it was not David Adonai was angry with, it was Israel.

Vicki:
I can see that as a possibility, too.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Allan: BTW it was not David Adonai was angry with, it was Israel.
Vicki: I can see that as a possibility, too.


Not just a possibility. Take only a moment to confirm I know what I am talking about.

2 Samuel 24:1

For further confirmation I am correct about the Creationist sites, look at the obviously manipulative language used here:

https://www.gotquestions.org/David-census.html

It is just a string of unscrupulous lies, as anyone can quickly establish.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
I am one of those Christians who believe what the Bible says- that there will be a day when the dead are resurrected, whether they know God or not, and they will be judged. Their works and words will be examined. The Book of Life will be checked to see if their names are there. If not, they will be separated from God forever, in the Lake of Fire. From what Jesus said, there will be degrees of punishment, there.


Once again you are not answering my question, Vicki.

Why is it so?

Given that Adonai did not reveal himself to Abraham until around 4000 years ago, there would have been countless millions of our fellow humans who had never heard of him for hundreds of thousands of years, knew nothing of what he demanded.

They would have been decent people, living as best they could in terms of what they knew about protecting the tribe.

Since they are all, or at least the majority of them, innocent, what will happen to them?

Some say there could have been as many as 1.25 million indigenous Australians living here before Christianity arrived. What would happen to them, and their forefathers who had been there probably up to 70,000 years earlier?

quote:
There will be no imps and devils torturing people there. They will not be in charge.


Please make up your mind. What will be the purpose of those imps and devils, even if they are not in control?

quote:
The torment comes from being separated from God, who is the source of goodness and grace and perhaps inner torment.


Since they never knew this deity, why would they suffer from being separated from him?

Why, too, do you say God is perhaps the source of inner torment? What purpose does that serve?

quote:
We all experience God's goodness and grace as we live on the earth, but so many people don't realize that this is from God. They credit chance, luck, self-effort or the efforts of others. Cut off from God's grace and goodness will be terrible.


Why, given they never knew him?
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
By requiring me to provide non-Christian sources, I believe that you are attempting to manipulate my responses. If you are trying to win some kind of debate, instead of engaging in a conversation about Christianity, that would be the way to do it.


Interesting. What makes you take it that way?

I thought we are discussing religion which, as you know, I see as a subset of mythology.

In order to understand mythology, as with everything else, one must look at the facts.

Judaism is certainly not a Christian source, but it is the prime source of Christianity.

How can one understand Christianity without ever understanding the history of the culture which produced it?
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Allan:
Given that Adonai did not reveal himself to Abraham until around 4000 years ago, there would have been countless millions of our fellow humans who had never heard of him for hundreds of thousands of years, knew nothing of what he demanded.

Vicki:
Yahweh Elohim revealed Himself to humanity from the beginning. Cain and Abel knew Him (Genesis 4). It says in Genesis 4:26 "A son was also born to Seth (Adam and Eve's son), and he named him Enosh. At that time people began to worship Yahweh."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Allan:
Please make up your mind. What will be the purpose of those imps and devils, even if they are not in control?

Vicki:
The Lake of Fire is a place of eternal punishment and a place where the ungodly, including the devil, will be forever cut off from God's presence, as well as from the presence of the people that God has redeemed. You are referring to folklore, not the Bible, when you refer to imps and devils torturing people in the afterlife.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Allan:
Since they never knew this deity, why would they suffer from being separated from him?Why, too, do you say God is perhaps the source of inner torment? What purpose does that serve?

Vicki:
Every good thing comes from God. He showers both the ungodly and the godly with His grace, while they are alive on the earth. Even people who do not acknowledge God now, will feel the absence of His grace when the time comes.

The inner torment would not be from God. Being left alone with one's own hatred, anger, bitterness, regrets, selfishness, etc. would be enough to create inner torment, imo.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Allan: BTW it was not David Adonai was angry with, it was Israel.
Vicki: I can see that as a possibility, too.


Not just a possibility. Take only a moment to confirm I know what I am talking about.

2 Samuel 24:1

For further confirmation I am correct about the Creationist sites, look at the obviously manipulative language used here:

https://www.gotquestions.org/David-census.html

It is just a string of unscrupulous lies, as anyone can quickly establish.


Yes, I see that you are right. God was angry with Israel, so he incited David to do a census. That's what I get for not going to the Scripture and answering from the top of my head.

However, I don't understand why you see the response on gotquestions.org as a string of unscrupulous lies.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Vicki:
just by going according to what the Bible says, the God of the Bible did not "originate". He always was, is, and will be. He has no beginning and no end. He is eternal and non-contingent. He is the Creator who created the heavens and the earth from nothing, just by speaking. This is no storm god and no war god (Ish Milchama). He does fight for His people, though.


Allan:
Just as all other original creator deities did.


Vicki:
Really? What other creator deities have always existed and spoke the universe into being out of nothing, without help, as God did?

Allan:
Like Adonai, they needed underlings to take care of what they did not have time for.He just does not give them the credit they deserve.Why does he need them at all, do you think?

Vicki:
God does not need anything. He is non- contingent. He created angels and humanity because He wanted to. Why would you decide that the God of the Bible doesn't like giving credit to those who deserve it? What is your reasoning for assigning this motive to God?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Vicki:
According to the Jewish sources that you picked. Did it occur to you that they might be incorrect? I think I understand their claim. They don't believe that God created angels who could rebel.


Allan:
Another cheap shot.Jews know because they are God's Chosen People, and understand what their God told them.


Vicki:
I think that you are being contradictory, here. You do not believe that the God of the Bible exists. You have stated in previous posts that the Jews drew from the mythologies from the nations around them in order to come up with the Torah, and the rest of the Tanakh. Now you make a statement, "understand what their God told them"?

We Christians, who tend to take the Bible literally, view the Bible as God's Word (not just that it contains God's Word). He is speaking to His chosen people, as well as to the nations. The Jewish commentaries (and Christian commentaries for that matter) are written by men. They can have good insights and valuable information. They can also contain errors since they are written by men.

Allan:
You are not in the hunt even to try refuting what devout Jews know about the Tanakh.You do not even know what they know, and why they know it.

Vicki:
I study the Bible. I am studying Hebrew so that I can better understand the Bible. I see no need to refute devout Jews in what they believe. There are times when I draw on Jewish understanding of the Tanakh. But I also view the Tanakh through what the NT says, which was written by Jewish men, except for maybe the Gospel of Luke and Acts. (Some theories say that Luke was a Jewish proselyte and others say he was a Hellenized Jew).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Allan:
Seems you need to ignore the Bible statement that Adonai regretted creating us and set out to destroy us. Seems he did not know what would eventuate in the imaginary garden in Eden.

Vicki:
Seems like you need to ignore that God took special steps to preserve Noah and His family, in order to begin again. If God wanted to destroy humanity, there would have been no survivors.

That is one of the many things I love about God- the new beginnings.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Allan:
Your imaginary idea that the deity created for one culture must be imposed on everyone, whether they want it or not, is just that, imaginary.Just leave people alone to find their own spiritual path. Yours can not work for everyone.

Vicki:
God doesn't leave people alone to find their own spiritual path. His salvation works for everyone, if only they are willing to repent and believe, as Jesus taught.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Never goes away...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Vicki:
According to the Jewish sources that you picked. Did it occur to you that they might be incorrect? I think I understand their claim. They don't believe that God created angels who could rebel.


Allan:
Another cheap shot.Jews know because they are God's Chosen People, and understand what their God told them.


Vicki:
I think that you are being contradictory, here. You do not believe that the God of the Bible exists. You have stated in previous posts that the Jews drew from the mythologies from the nations around them in order to come up with the Torah, and the rest of the Tanakh. Now you make a statement, "understand what their God told them"?

We Christians, who tend to take the Bible literally, view the Bible as God's Word (not just that it contains God's Word). He is speaking to His chosen people, as well as to the nations. The Jewish commentaries (and Christian commentaries for that matter) are written by men. They can have good insights and valuable information. They can also contain errors since they are written by men.

Allan:
You are not in the hunt even to try refuting what devout Jews know about the Tanakh.You do not even know what they know, and why they know it.

Vicki:
I study the Bible. I am studying Hebrew so that I can better understand the Bible. I see no need to refute devout Jews in what they believe. There are times when I draw on Jewish understanding of the Tanakh. But I also view the Tanakh through what the NT says, which was written by Jewish men, except for maybe the Gospel of Luke and Acts. (Some theories say that Luke was a Jewish proselyte and others say he was a Hellenized Jew).


Vicki, I believe you may be misunderstanding how Allan uses the word mythology. Often it is wholly used as synomous with fiction, that’s not how he seems to use the word to me. As Christianity was built on the beliefs of the times, at least in that area, it seems natural to me that Judaism was built on what preceded it.
 
Posts: 12868 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Settling in...
posted Hide Post
Allan:
The origins of the USA were different, Protestant Pilgrims and Puritans controlled the country, and the bulk of the Founding Fathers were Deists, not necessarily either Protestant or Catholic. Close enough to my own way of thinking.

Vicki:

Interesting article about the religions of colonial America-
https://www.facinghistory.org/...ulations-and-beliefs


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki
 
Posts: 455 | Location: Idaho | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata       Page: 1 ... 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 ... 37 
 

    Aantares    Aantares BB  Hop To Forum Categories  Your Lifestyle & Culture  Hop To Forums  Religion & Spirituality    Biblical Scholar: Dont take Bible literally

© 2003-2020 Aantares Online LLC. All Rights Reserved.