None of that, of course, has any impact on the fact that the Jewish Mashiach is nothing at all like the Christian Messiah.
Seems even Pope Francis agrees with you.
However, both are wrong.
The one and only way the Christian Devil can be said to exist is as a metaphor.
Other than that, it is nothing more than a tool to instil fear into the susceptible.
Again my emphasis throughout:
Satan appears in the Bible, was discussed by the rabbis of the Talmud and is explored in detail in Jewish mysticism, or Kabbalah. In Hebrew, the term Satan is usually translated as “opponent” or “adversary,” and he is often understood to represent the sinful impulse (in Hebrew, yetzer hara) or, more generally, the forces that prevents human beings from submitting to divine will. He is also sometimes regarded as a heavenly prosecutor or accuser, a view given expression in the Book of Job, where Satan encourages God to test his servant.
...The Book of Job is sometimes cited to support the claim that the Jewish view of Satan as an agent of God is different from the Christian view, which sees Satan as an autonomous force opposed to God. In the story, Satan inflicts suffering on a human being and seeks to induce him to sin — but only with God’s permission.
...Some of these Christian ideas are echoed in Jewish tradition, but some also point to fundamental differences — most notably perhaps the idea that, in the Hebrew Bible at least, Satan is ultimately subordinate to God, carrying out his purpose on earth. Or that he isn’t real at all, but is merely a metaphor for sinful impulses .
You and all those who actually do believe the Christian Devil is a real entity have no answer to the established fact that the Jews did not even consider anything along your lines until after they were exposed to the Messiah Cyrus' Angra Mainyu/Ahriman.
You have shown time and again you have no answer to that.
From the above source:
The (post-exile) kabbalistic and Hasidic literature complicate this view, offering a closer parallel to Christian eschatology. Both the kabbalistic/Hasidic and Christian traditions describe the forces of the holy and the demonic as locked in a struggle that will culminate in God’s eventual victory. According to some scholars, this is born of the considerable cross-pollination between Christian and Jewish thinking in the so-called “golden age” of Jewish culture in Spain during the Middle Ages, from whence many of the early kabbalistic texts, including the Zohar, emerged.
You are well off the mark here.
I have no problem at all emphasising with Christians. Or anyone else, for that matter.
In fact, you can have no idea just how far my empathy stretches.
However, to paraphrase Stan Freberg, "just the facts, ma'am".
Was watching a documentary from Sir David Attenborough, Dynasties .
In one scene, an older gorilla had been rejected by his higher-status Alpha mate. Watching his body language as he sat alone and isolated, I wanted nothing more than to offer him a Guinness and a sympathetic shoulder to cry on.
If I can empathise with a Great Ape cousin, empathising with any Christian is a doddle.
That is simply false.
What can you tell me of the Nazarenes, the Ebionites?
Again my emphasis:
Jesus and his first followers were Jews who observed the normal Jewish way of life. A new religion arose only when the Jewish identity had disappeared and the Jewish way of life was abandoned. Of crucial significance was their attitude to the Torah (the Law of Moses, its teaching and its practical applications), in particular circumcision and the dietary rules. During the course of history these had become central symbols of Jewish identity.
...Paul's part in the origin of Christianity should not be underestimated. Jesus did not found a new religion. He and his first followers were active within Judaism. The development towards a new religion only began when the Jesus movement gained a foothold among non-Jews. Here Paul played a principal role.
There was a slowly growing chasm between Christians and Jews, rather than a sudden split. Even though it is commonly thought that Paul established a Gentile church, it took centuries for a complete break to manifest. However, certain events are perceived as pivotal in the growing rift between Judaism and Christianity. The Council of Jamnia c. 85 is often stated to have condemned all who claimed the Messiah had already come, and Christianity in particular. However, the formulated prayer in question (birkat ha-minim) is considered by other scholars to be unremarkable in the history of Jewish and Christian relations. There is a paucity of evidence for Jewish persecution of "heretics" in general, or Christians in particular, in the period between 70 and 135. It is probable that the condemnation of Jamnia included many groups, of which the Christians were but one, and did not necessarily mean excommunication. That some of the later church fathers only recommended against synagogue attendance makes it improbable that an anti-Christian prayer was a common part of the synagogue liturgy. Jewish Christians continued to worship in synagogues for centuries. 
How early is too early?
We see time in linear fashion. They didn't. It was either a circle or a spiral, so it was no big deal to see events today as a recurrence of what happened at an earlier time on the spiral.
Plus ça Change, Plus C'est La Même Chose.
You know me. Back to the beginning.
Judaeo-Christianity's origins date back at least to Sumer and Egypt, and probably India. Nothing new there at all.
You may have seen me say Gilgamesh's friend Enkidu sounds suspiciously like a Neanderthal to me. Not hard to accept that, given we did live as neighbours in that region.
Synchronicity Rules OK
Just watched Yeti: Myth, Man or Beast? .
Scientist Mark Evans is on a mission to find a rational explanation for the mysterious Himalayan biped known as the yeti. He begins in a remote, Himalayan valley where marauding bears have attacked villagers, then moves to the once-forbidden Kingdom of Upper Mustang on Nepal's wild Tibetan frontier. In a twisting tale, Mark weighs up the evidence from nomads, monks and mountaineers, before coming back with new, untested remains from both bears and 'yetis'. Will the DNA finally solve the world’s most intriguing zoological puzzle?
Nothing was resolved, however in exploring why Nepalese and others can survive in oxygen-low heights, it was discovered they have an essential gene which came from the Neanderthal cousins, the Denisovans. Westerners have Neanderthal genes in our DNA.
We need to remember we live in a culture where memory is nothing at all like it was in the oral cultures.
As I understood it, the suggestion was that the Yeti, now actually various bears, is embedded in the minds of those cultures, which is why they see the Denisovan in today's bears.
The First Australians have their own equivalent, the Yowie. They also have, in the far north, legends of a pygmy race, which I suspect may be the H*** floresiensis from nearby Indonesia.
To reinforce my point, there are some 20 stories around the Australian coast which can reliably be dated to the inundation of the continental shelves. They also have a story from the Atherton Tableland which has been scientifically dated to actual personal experiences some 17,000 years ago.
So you can see why I keep insisting we need to go right back to the beginning if we ever are to understand 21st century humans.
Lake Barrine was formed over 17,000 years ago when a large volcano erupted, leaving a crater that over time filled up with water to create a lake. The crater or maar was formed as a result of a series of volcanic explosions.
It is possible the three lakes on the Tableland were formed at different times. Lake Eacham is dated at just over 9000 years ago:
"Two young fellas were trying to spear that wallaby. But they missed and hit a flame tree. That’s a sacred tree. The young fellas not supposed to be out hunting. They weren’t initiated. Their elders told them to stay put, not go out hunting. But they didn’t listen. When they pulled their spear out, part of a grub came out with the spear, which was a witchetty grub. They started cutting down that tree to get more grubs. When they cut down that tree, the ground began to shake. Those two fellas had made Yamini (rainbow serpent) angry. Then the sky turned orange, then all these people back at the camp, the earth went from underneath them, sucked them in, whoosh, they all got drowned. Where they were camped became Bana Wiingina (Lake Eacham)." (Warren Cannendo, Ngadjon-Jii)
Ah, Vicki. L'esprit de l'escalier.
After I had left to feed the birds, I was thinking of what you said, and my answer.
Then it hit me.
Why did I not invite you to do the same thing?
Would you be prepared to see the world through my eyes, put on my shoes?
They are a bit elaborate.
I have been reading mythology since a very small child. Robert Graves, in my early teens, opened my eyes, and I have read mythologies from all over the world.
They count for everything.
Was always interested in history.
Modern history at first, then I started to move back to when we began civilisation.
Sumer, located in Mesopotamia, is the first known complex civilization, developing the first city-states in the 4th millennium BCE. It was in these cities that the earliest known form of writing, cuneiform script, appeared around 3000 BCE.
History of the world - Wikipedia
Then further back, to the likes of Jericho and Çatalhöyük.
Çatalhöyük - Wikipedia
Çatalhöyük (Turkish pronunciation: [tʃaˈtaɫhœjyc]; also Çatal Höyük and Çatal Hüyük; from Turkish çatal "fork" + höyük "tumulus") was a very large Neolithic and Chalcolithic proto-city settlement in southern Anatolia, which existed from approximately 7500 BC to 5700 BC, and flourished around 7000 BC.
Then further back.
 The remains designated Mungo man (LM3) were discovered in 1974, and are dated to around 42,000 years old, the Pleistocene epoch, and are the oldest **** sapiens (human) remains found on the Australian continent.
See how well you empathise with these:
It is not expensive, nor is it a difficult read. Care to try:
We must include geology. Nothing quite like looking at the Glasshouse mountains, created some 26 million years ago:
The Glass House Mountains are located in the traditional lands of the Jinibara and Gubbi Gubbi people. The mountains are members of a family with the father being Mount Tibrogargan and the mother Mount Beerwah. All of the other mountains are sons and daughters with the eldest being Mount Coonowrin, the twins called Tunbubudla, Miketeebumulgrai, Elimbah whose shoulders were bent because she carried many cares, Round because she was so small and fat and Wild Horse who always strayed away from the others to swim in the sea.
And of course you will include behavioural psychology, why do people behave as they do, believe what they believe. Been interested in that all my life, and included psychology and sociology in my 18 months at university. My volunteer work as football coach and language tutor benefited from this, and I received thanks from many parents because of the way I managed to create self-confidence in their young ones.
That should be enough for starters.
The last thing you can afford, the challenge you have consistently avoided, is to accept that Christianity is blasphemous on two accounts for strict Jews.First, it claims Jesus is an aspect of the Jewish deity. No devout Jew could possibly accept that.
If Jesus were just a man, then indeed the claims that he made about himself- being without sin, being the light of the world, forgiving people's sins, being our judge at the end of days, being the lord of the sabbath, being from above, being in existence before Abraham, being the life, and being the means of our salvation- would indeed be blasphemous or maybe the rantings of a lunatic.
But Jesus wasn't just a man. God became flesh. He was born as a baby, grew into a man, and walked the earth and preached. He felt hunger and thirst, pain, and he experienced death in the flesh he became. It is not blasphemous for God to do this, no matter what Judaism says. God indicated that he would do this, in the Hebrew Scriptures.
This isn't a challenge that Jesus avoided. He was very blunt about this, in fact. He knew that the religious authorities of his day considered what he said as blasphemous. He pointed out that the Hebrew Scriptures spoke about him (John5:39). He quoted Isaiah 54:13 (They will all be taught by ADONAI) and said in John 6:45 "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." But the religious authorities would not listen. Was it really because they thought Jesus was a blasphemer? Probably some did genuinely think that. But Jesus pointed out in John 8:46-47, "Which one of you can show me where I'm wrong? If I'm telling the truth, why don't you believe me? Whoever belongs to God listens to what God says; the reason you don't listen is that you don't belong to God.
One for you, mate.
Were the Denisovans the giants of the legends all over the world? Where they the first kings of Egypt - the divine Pharaohs? Did they have an advanced technology that later got lost, might be together with the Denisovans themselves, in a world wide catastrophe?
This site is exactly in line with some of your thoughts on days long gone, and the end of the Atlantis civilisation.
Then there is this one:
|Here to stay...|
A little channeling for the mathematical physics of that time cycle:
I tend to think the monotheist religions (Atenism, Luwian, Judaeo-Christian) all go back through Zoroaster who was quite Hindu-like.
A little channeling about Denisovans:
If I don't go shopping now I will not eat, drink, or smoke tonight.
BTW the only Parantha I can find is an Indian bread, Paratha???
|Here to stay...|
Funny I did a search of the channeling forum to see if anybody had a clue as to what the name might mean and I found a response from me: "Yeah Paranthropus does mean "beside human" so it at least could be a clue that the Paranthas were a different species/subspecies instead of just a different race." Apparently I used to be smarter!
Weren't we all ;(
You can see from this why I have to keep going back well beyond Zarathustra, before Çatalhöyük.
Wherever this comes from, it happened long before the later humans started all over again.
Egypt, the Black Sea, and Mexico are where we need to look.
So, as I said, it is utterly dishonest to say or even imply that Christianity and Judaism are one and the same.
I didn't say or imply that Christianity and Judaism are one and the same.
The statement I quoted pointed out that Christians are linked to the Jewish people through the Jewish Messiah. That does not mean that Christianity and Judaism "are one and the same".
The Hebrew Scriptures are the basis of both religions, so understanding the Hebrew Scriptures will bring depth to our understanding of the New Testament and of Jesus.
Not sure if you can accept that particular Baptist source.I do know
I was never part of the KJV only crowd. I use many different translations when I study the Bible. I believe that people do need to hear God's Word in their heart language, so it wouldn't make sense to say that the KJV is the only translation that can be used. That would mean non English speaking people would have to learn a new language before they could read the Bible. What a ridiculous idea, imo! I think it is important to read the introduction to the translation in order to understand if it is word for word, dynamic, etc.
I am a Baptist, so I definitely get the joke. We do like to subdivide! Which is weird since we don't actually have a hierarchy outside of the individual churches.
The one and only way the Christian Devil can be said to exist is as a metaphor.Other than that, it is nothing more than a tool to instil fear into the susceptible.
I can understand why someone, such as yourself, who doesn't believe in the existence of the biblical God, would believe that the devil is just a metaphor to scare susceptible people. It really is consistent with your world view.
Thank-you for sharing this about yourself and where your world view comes from. It helps me to better understand where you are coming from.
|Here to stay...|
Yeah the Younger Dryas Atlantis refugees probably went to the Pontic Steppe, Central America, and Egypt first.
|Here to stay...|
Before Cyrus, the Jews were polytheistic Canaanites thus orthodox Jewish monotheism isn't any older than Enochian Angra Mainyu/Ahriman monotheism. The Enochian version just handles Divine Council realities better.
Christians have no connection whatsoever with the Jewish Mashiach.
Nor do they have a Jewish understanding of the word of God as he gave it to his Chosen People.
What happens to Christians when they realise that?
You need to find a much smaller brush to paint that notion with.
May I suggest "Most Christian theologies have little connection whatsoever with the ancient Biblical Mashiach."
Truth be told, current Judaism has little connection to him either. So Christians finding Judaism's modern day Mashiach is a non-starter since he was formulated several decades after Jesus.
I understand that you are trying to make a point, but painting a wall when a window would better serve, is but a disservice to this discussion.
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
Interesting that you find you have to change the subject.
We were talking about the fact that the The Complete Jewish Study Bible is anything but a Jewish Bible.
The title is deliberately designed to create a false impression.
As I demonstrated.
Believing in the God of the Tanakh makes it impossible to accept the existence of a rebellious angel, something you seem unable to understand.
He arrived in Judaism as Samael, after the exiled Jews were exposed to Zarathustra's teachings in Babylon.
Samael (Hebrew: סַמָּאֵל, "Venom of God", "Poison of God", or "Blindness of God"; rarely "Smil", "Samil", or "Samiel") is an important archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is the accuser (Ha-Satan), seducer, and destroyer (Mashhit), and has been regarded as both good and evil. Rabbinical writings describe Samael as the guardian angel of Esau  and a patron of Edom.
He is considered in Talmudic texts to be a member of the heavenly host (with often grim and destructive duties). One of Samael's greatest roles in Jewish lore is that of the main archangel of death. He remains one of God's servants even though he condones the sins of man. As an angel, Samael resides in the seventh heaven, although he is declared to be the chief angel of the fifth heaven, the reason for this being the presence of the throne of glory in the seventh heaven.
Samael - Wikipedia
I doubt even your minister has an answer for that.
So when may we expect to see you wearing my shoes?
I take your point.
However, the subtle fine strokes of a true artist are often missed.
Which reminds me.
I'm not into painting at all. Stood in front of the Mona Lisa for some time and it meant nothing, especially compared with standing in front of la Pietà (before the finger was broken) and Moses with his crescent-moon horns.
Some time back I watched a documentary on painting and painters. Was in an ASC and it made all the difference.
The presenter explained the circumstances surrounding each painting, the motives, the point the painter was making, often on the emotional issues driving the painter.
I empathised all the way.
Be interesting to see what happens if I go to an art gallery again.
JR: Truth be told, current Judaism has little connection to him either. So Christians finding Judaism's modern day Mashiach is a non-starter since he was formulated several decades after Jesus.
Please explain, as I know of no modern Jewish interpretation which counters the earlier one. Have read quite a bit on this in Chabad.
We keep getting back to that area, don't we.
Is it just scientific orthodoxy which prevents this being examined?