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Biblical Scholar: Dont take Bible literally
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JR: Truth be told, current Judaism has little connection to him either. So Christians finding Judaism's modern day Mashiach is a non-starter since he was formulated several decades after Jesus.

Allan: Please explain, as I know of no modern Jewish interpretation which counters the earlier one. Have read quite a bit on this in Chabad.

Right, no modern Jewish interpretation which started with the Hezekiah/Josiah reforms, but were not completed until after the Council of Jamnia redacted and canonized the texts, and then completed with the writing of the Talmud Yerushalmi in 300 CE and the Talmud Bavli in 500 CE, whereby orthodoxy was established by the rabbis.

Once you see the differences between the MT (Council of Jamnia) and the DSS and LXX, it doesn't take genius to figure out what precipitated the redactions at Jamnia; as many of the texts were "proof texts" used by the early Christians.

If you ever get a chance to check out Barker's The Older Testament from a local library, I'm thinking that once you see it all laid out in black and white, you won't soon forget it.

Meanwhile, I'll post a bit she wrote regarding Isaiah next under...in order to refresh your memory.


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Margaret Barker on Isaiah

After first going into the 'Mother, Virgin, Wife/Consort' aspects of Wisdom 'the Deserted One', as is found in Isaiah 6:11b 'Your SONS SHALL MARRY YOU, and as a bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you' and in 54:6 the 'Deserted One' described as the 'forsaken wife', M. Barker delves into a couple of other controversial aspects of Isaiah:

"The Lady's (Wisdom) second appearance is in Isaiah's oracle to Ahaz at the upper pool (Isa 7:10-14). The present form of the text, even in English, implies that something is missing. 'Therefore the Lord (adonai) himself will give you a sign' implies a distinction between the LORD (yhwh) whom Ahaz had refused to put to the test (v 12), and the Lord (adonai). There was a similar distinction in the call vision. Isaiah saw the Lord (adonai) upon a throne, and he heard the voice of the Lord (adonai, Isa 6:1, 8). The heavenly beings praised the LORD (yhwh), and Isaiah exclaimed that he had seen the King, the LORD (yhwh) of Hosts (Isa 6:3, 5). In this chapter, the two names seem to be equivalents, as they are elsewhere, but in the oracle to Ahaz a distinction is implied: if you will not ask yhwh, then adonai himself will give you a sign. There is more than one deity in this passage. The matter is complicated by the text of Isaiah 7:11 in the great Isaiah Scroll from Qumran (1Q Isa (a)), which has: 'Ask a sign of the MOTHER of the LORD (yhwh) your God', instead of 'Ask a sign from the LORD your God.' The photograph of the scroll is quite clear, although this reading is NOT reproduced in any transcript I have seen: 'wt m'(aleph)m yhwh, a sign from the mother of the LORD, instead of the MT 'wt m'(ayin)m yhwh, a sign from the LORD. The scroll has an aleph not an ayin, giving 'mother', rather than the stronger form of 'from'. This may have been just a mistake on the part of a careless scribe, but there is no proof of this. The Qumran Scroll is THE ONLY PRE-CHRISTIAN HEBREW TEXT OF THIS SECTION OF ISAIAH, and it mentions the mother of yhwh in a very significant context; the sign of the child. Having read of the Abandoned One in whom was the holy seed, we now have a mother of the LORD about to give birth to her son Immanuel.

The prophet's sign was that the 'almah (there is a definite article in the Hebrew even though the English translations do not reproduce it) would bear a son to be called Immanuel, 'God with Us'. The king had this title (Isa 8:8), because he was the divine presence with the people. Who, then, was his mother? There has been endless controversy over the fact that the LXX at this point translates 'almah by parthenos, Virgin, whereas the later (post-Christian) Greek translations have neanis, young woman. Had the LXX, which became the Scriptures of the Church, been altered? Matthew certainly knew 'virgin' as the translation (Matt 1:23, albeit 'a' virgin) and yet 'almah as known elsewhere means young woman. Why then did the translator of the LXX choose the other word? Perhaps it was because people in Egypt, where this translation originated, remembered the female figure in Jerusalem who had been known as The Virgin, just as the Great Lady in Ugarit had been The Virgin and the mother of the earthly king. She was the unnamed woman in the oracles of Micah, Isaiah's contemporary, the One who was about to give birth to the ruler and great shepherd of Israel (Mic 5:2-4). Literally, 'almah means 'the hidden one': the root 'lm means conceal, and a derived noun, t'lmh means secret, as in Job 11:6, 'the secrets of Wisdom', or Job 28:11 'the thing that is hidden he brings to light'. When the woman clothed with the sun appears in the Book of Revelation, she had been hidden in the holy of holies which opened to reveal her and the long lost ark (Rev 11:19-12:2).

The promised royal child then appears: 'Unto us a child is born' (Isa 9:6), the 'us' being the angels in the holy of holies, since the nation is the third person 'they rejoice before thee' (Isa 9:3). The setting for the naming of the royal child is the ritual/event celebrated in Psalm 110 (LXX 109), an opaque text in the Hebrew. The LXX, however, has in v 3b: 'In the splendour of the holy ones from the womb before the dawn I have begotten you.' 'Splendour' and 'mountains' are similar words in Hebrew, which explains why the Vulgate has 'in the holy mountains'. The familiar English 'your youth' is one way of understanding the Hebrew letters yldtyk, but another way is 'I have begotten you', whence the LXX. The remaining Hebrew gives 'from the womb', and 'from the morning star' and 'to you dew'. Although opaque in this form, they do make certain connections: one of the names for the Lady at Ugarit was Rahmay, 'womb' and the Hebrew word here is the equivalent rhm. Her son had a twofold name, Shahar, morning star, and Shalem, evening star, and the opaque Hebrew has the same word shahar. 'Morning star' was known to the first Christians as a title associated with the Davidic king, appearing in the letter to the Church at Thyatira together with allusions to Psalm 2, and it was a title for the risen LORD: 'I am the root and offspring of David, the bright morning star' (Rev 2:26-38; 22:16). The remaining words of Psalm 110:3, 'to you dew' may once have described the process of the birth, since 'dew' became a symbol of resurrection, and the anointing oil which was the sacrament of resurrection was later described as 'like sweet dew and fragrant with myrrh' (2 En 22:9). The king is born from his divine parents and given a title of the Son as well as the priesthood of Melchizedek. An early Christian Wisdom text, The Teaching of Silvanus, shows that this was remembered in the Church:

'Wisdom summons you in her goodness saying 'Come to me all of you' O foolish ones, that you may receive a gift, the understanding that is good and excellent. I am giving you a high priestly garment which is woven from every wisdom ... Return my son to your first Father God and Wisdom your Mother, from whom you came into being... (CG VIII. 4.89, 91). "

M. Barker, 'The Great High Priest'


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And one on blasphemy...

John 10:22-39; Blasphemy at Hanukkah

Part 1
The scene moves to the winter festival of Hanukkah, and John does not say how much time passed between the teaching that began at Tabernacles and this next debate with the Jews, who press Jesus to say clearly whether or not he is the Messiah. Jesus replies that they have been told already, through his works, but they do not belong to his flock and so cannot believe them. Yet again, John shows that the Jews, first exemplified by Nicodemus, the teacher of Israel (v. 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.), have moved so far away from the teaching of the original temple that they cannot understand what Jesus is teaching and doing, and so cannot recognize who he is. 'My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life...' (v. 27 "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, ..."), echoing the words of the Prologue:
"To all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor the will of man., but of God. (v. 1:12-13)"Nobody can take them away from their Father, or from Jesus, because 'I and the Father are one thing' (v. 30 Barker trans.). This is another foreshadowing of the high-priestly prayer; Jesus does not explain the nature of the unity, but only its effect.

The Jews again prepare to stone him (v. 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,...), with the loose stones lying around the building site because the second temple was being refurbished and extended. This time the charge is blasphemy, as prescribed in the Law of Moses: 'He who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him... (Lev. 24:16). Jesus has been guilty of working on the Sabbath, which has to be punished by stoning (Num. 15:32-35 "Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 33Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation; 34and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 35Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp."); and some considered that he was leading the people astray and that the miracles were magic, which was also punishable by stoning (Lev. 20:27 "A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads."; and Deut. 13:1-5 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4“You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. 5“But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.").

The blasphemy here is Jesus' claim to be divine: 'You, being a man, make yourself God' (v. 33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."), whereas the Christian claim was that he was God who became a man (Phil. 2:6-7 "...who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[a] being born in the likeness of men."). John's Jesus responds with an argument from Scripture. (italics) This shows that his claim to be Son of God originated in his own discussion with the Jews and was not a later development in the Christian communities under the influence of Greek culture. (end italics). He cites as his proof text Psalm 82 (It may not be coincidence that this was one of the Melch-Zedek proof texts in 11QMelch.) and he emphasizes that he is quoting 'your law' (v. 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?), and so something that they accept as authoritative. The concept 'son of God', though considered blasphemous by the Jews, was nevertheless used by Hebrews, and had been part of the older faith. A fragment from Qumran that describes how a kingdom will be established says: 'He will be proclaimed son of God; he will be called son of God Most High." (4Q246). There are no more details, but these same titles were used by Gabriel to tell Mary about her Child, who would restore the Davidic Kingdom (Luke 1:32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,...").

In Psalm 82 the ambiguity of the Hebrew 'elohim, 'gods', makes translation impossible, but it also underlies Jesus' claim to be One with the Father:
" 'elohim has taken his place [singular] in the assembly of El, In the midst of 'elohim, he sits in judgement...
I have said, 'You are 'elohim, and all of you sons of the Most High, But you shall die [plural] like Adam, They shall fall like one of the princes." (Ps. 82:1, 6, 7, Barker trans.).

Here is the mystery of the One and the many within the divine, and the many are sons of the Most High. The Psalm implies that these sons should have been doing the works of God: giving right judgements (from the Hebrew sdq) for the destitute, and help to the weak and needy (Ps. 82:3-4 "Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked."). These were the foundation virtues of the Davidic Kings (Ps. 72:1-4 Give the king Your judgments, O God, And Your righteousness to the king’s son. May he judge Your people with righteousness And Your afflicted with justice.
Let the mountains bring peace to the people, And the hills, in righteousness. May he vindicate the afflicted of the people, Save the children of the needy, And crush the oppressor."), but the condemned 'elohim had failed in their duties because they lacked knowledge and understanding and they walked without light. The rulers had lost sight of the old-covenant virtues because they had lost the benefits of Wisdom. This had been Isaiah's earliest condemnation of the new ways taking hold in Jerusalem, which he gave in the form of a parable. The LORD's vineyard had produced a harvest of bloodshed and cries of despair when the LORD had expected justice (from the Hebrew spt) and righteousness (from the Hebrew sdq) (Isa. 5:1-7 "Let me sing now for my well-beloved
A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.
He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
And He built a tower in the middle of it
And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.
“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
“So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;
I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground.
“I will lay it waste;
It will not be pruned or hoed,
But briars and thorns will come up.
I will also charge the clouds to rain no rain on it.”
For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel
And the men of Judah His delightful plant.
Thus He looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry of distress.").

(M. Barker, King of the Jews, Temple Theology in John's Gospel)


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John 10:22-39; Blasphemy at Hanukkah

Part 2
In the synoptic Gospels, the events corresponding to the debate in the temple at Hanukkah are Jesus' encounters with the chief priests, scribes and elders in the temple in the days immediately before his death (Matt. 21:23-46; Mark 11:27-12:44; Luke 19:47-21-:4). As in John's account, the issue was Jesus' authority, and all three synoptic Gospels say Jesus told his version of Isaiah's parable of the vineyard. He was the Son and heir, coming to the vineyard which had been let to 'tenants' - the current high priests - while the owner was away. (The owner was the LORD, who had forsaken the house and tower of his sheep, and abandoned them to the wild beasts - the foreign rulers - and the shepherd angels. (1 Enoch 89:56 'And I saw that he forsook their house and their tower and gave them unto the hands of the lions..')). They had ignored the owner's other servants - the prophets - who came to gather the fruit, and so the son himself was sent. The tenants here correspond to the shepherd angels left in charge of the people, and the fate of the unjust tenants would be the fate of the shepherd angels: they would be destroyed and the vineyard given to others, just as the shepherd angels were judged and their temple destroyed before the LORD of the sheep set up his new temple.

"Those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast into the fiery abyss...
[The angels] folded up that old house ... and carried it off and laid it in a place in the south of the land...
The LORD of the sheep brought a new house greater and loftier than the first, and set it up in the place of the first that had been folded up...(1 Enoch 90:25, 28, 29).

Here in the Hanukkah encounter, John implies that the 'elohim were facing judgement, because they too were hearing the word of God. The allusion to the corrupt high priests is clear. Jesus is doing the works of God, and they prove to anyone with knowledge and understanding who he is (v. 38 ".. but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."). The condemned 'elohim in the psalm lacked both knowledge and understanding (Ps. 82:5 5 "They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken.") and so they would fall from their position and due. The failure of the temple authorities to recognize Jesus would be the judgement upon then, rejecting the light because they preferred darkness (cf. John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."). After hearing the parable of the vineyard, [the chief priests, scribes and the elders] perceived that he had told the parable against them...' (Mark 12:12 "And they were seeking to seize Him, and yet they feared the [a]people, for they understood that He spoke the parable against them. And so they left Him and went away.").

Hanukkah means 'dedication': the feast marked the rededication of the temple after the occupying and polluting Syrians had been driven out in 164 BCE (1 Macc. 4:36-59). 'Blameless priests' were appointed when the temple was repossessed, and new furnishings were made. The polluted stones of the old altar were set aside until a prophet should come and say what should be done with them, and it was in this context that Jesus, recognized by many to be the promised Prophet, ( e.g. Matt. 21:11 "And the crowds were saying, “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee.”; Mark 8:28 and parallels; John 6:14; 7:40, 52) decreed the fate not just of the altar stones, but of the entire temple (Mark 13:2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down.”). It is in this Hanukkah context that Jesus proclaims himself the high priest, the one whom the Father consecrated/dedicated and sent into the world (v. 36 ".. do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?). In temple tradition, the high priest was anointed and thus consecrated (Exod. 30:30 "You shall anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may minister as priests to Me.") . The holy oil represented the perfumed oil from the tree of life, but had been 'lost' in the time of Josiah - symbolic of rejecting Wisdom and her tree of life - and so in the second temple there was no correctly anointed high priest who had the gifts of Wisdom. Anointing, according to Psalm 110, had transformed the anointed one into a Son - 'I have begotten you' (Aramaic Bible in Plain English “Your people are glorious in the day of power; in the glories of holiness from the womb, from the first, I have begotten you, Son.”) who was given the title Melchi-Zedek (v. 4 The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”) . But the Hebrew text of Psalm 110 is at this point damaged beyond hope of translation, and this meaning has been recovered from the Greek (and Aramaic). The anointing that transformed a Davidic prince into the LORD's son, his human manifestation Melchi-Zedek, was a sensitive issue, and Jesus' claim may have led to the obscuring of the Hebrew text.

The issue was anointing and sonship. The Jews say to Jesus: 'If you are the [Messiah], tell us plainly' (v. 24), but they consider 'sonship' blasphemy. It was the nature of the Messiah that was the issue. Again, the synoptic Gospels all say that this was discussed in the temple in the last days before Jesus was killed, but they record the proof text of the debate as Psalm 110. Jesus asked the crowd in the temple how the scribes could teach that Messiah is (only) the son of David, when Psalm 110 clearly says that Messiah is the son of the LORD. David called the anointed king his Lord, and so he cannot have been simply his son (Matt. 22:41-46 "While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” “The son of David,” they replied. He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’ If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions."). The Evangelists cite only the opening lines of the psalm but this was the way of identifying a passage of Scripture before the texts were divided into numbered verses and chapters. The debate in the temple was about the meaning of the whole Psalm 110, and it says (or rather, originally said) that the anointed one was the divine son, consecrated/born in the holy of holies and then sent out into the world as a human presence of the LORD with his people, his son. The old title remained even in the writings of the Deuteronomists, but its temple context is not given. When Nathan the prophet brought the word of the LORD to David, he said: 'I will be [your son's Father, and he shall be my son' (2 Sam. 7:14).

Of the synoptic Gospels, only Matthew says Peter recognized the Messiah with the double title: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God', and Jesus said to him: 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven' (Matt. 16:17). Recognizing the Son was a divine gift. Matthew's Gospel was for Christian's with Hebrew roots, and so the double naming was an important distinction for them. Mark and Luke do not mention the title 'Son of God' (Mark 8:29; Luke 9:20). So too with the synoptic account of Jesus' trial. Mark had the high priest ask: 'Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? (Mark 14:61), and when Jesus replied 'I AM', the high priest condemned him for blasphemy. Jesus then identified himself as the figure of Daniel's vision, the Son of Man who went with the clouds to be seated on the throne in heaven (Dan. 7:13-14 “I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed."). This vision of the Man ascending was inspired by Psalm 2, and so in Daniel's account the context implied by the psalm is given. This is how people, including the high priests, would have pictured the words of the psalm. The Son of Man (or simply the Man) was the Davidic king going to be enthroned in heaven. All three synoptic Gospels agree that 'Messiah', 'Son of God' and '[Son of] Man' were titles used at Jesus' trial before the high priest, and that these were rephrased for Pilate in terms he would understand. Pilate therefore asked Jesus, 'Are you the King of the Jews?' (Matt. 27:11; Mark 15:2; Luke 23:3). John does not mention the question of titles at Jesus' trial before Annas, but does have Pilate ask the same question; ' Are you the King of the Jews?' (v. 18:33). In John's Gospel, the question of blasphemy is raised in the temple discourse at Hanukkah, when the Jews again try to arrest Jesus (10:39).

Jesus then goes back across the Jordan, to the place where John had been baptizing and where his own public ministry began (vs. 10:40-42). For John's Gospel, this completes the section: 'He came to his own, and his own received him not' (v. 1:11, Barker trans.).

(M. Barker, King of the Jews, Temple Theology in John's Gospel)


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Originally posted by bluelamp:


Have always thought Allan (or Alan, Allen) was associated with Ailin, in Scottish and Irish Gaelic, meaning both "little rock" and "harmony", or it may also be derived from the Celtic Aluinn, which means "handsome".

I'll buy that Smile   :)

However, I also knew there was a tribe named Alan, so went looking for them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans
The Alans (Latin: Alani) were an Iranian nomadic pastoral people of antiquity.[1][2][3][4][5]
The name Alan is an Iranian dialectical form of Aryan.[1][2] Possibly related to the Massagetae, the Alans have been connected by modern historians with the Central Asian Yancai and Aorsi of Chinese and Roman sources, respectively.[6] Having migrated westwards and become dominant among the Sarmatians on the Pontic Steppe, they are mentioned by Roman sources in the 1st century AD.[1][2] At the time, they had settled the region north of the Black Sea and frequently raided the Parthian Empire and the Caucasian provinces of the Roman Empire.[7] From 215–250 AD, their power on the Pontic Steppe was broken by the Goths.[4]

So not only am I rock solid and handsome, I am also Noble.

You see what I mean about synchronicity. This all began when I spotted an unusual name on a shop assistant's tag. He told me he had tried to find the meaning but hadn't.

So I went looking, and found it. Sounds like it has one hell of a history, starting in Scandinavia then going to Ireland when the Vikings moved there. There even is a name in India which seems to share some of the meaning.

While I was there I remembered the Alan tribe, so went looking. And here we are back on the Pontic steppes.

Went off on another track to check on Vishnu, and got further reinforcement for my insistence it is all so simple.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/...deities/vishnu.shtml

When we strip mythologies to basics, I see them starting very simply.

What was most important in the hunter-gatherer life?

The sun, the moon, storms, lightning which created fires, your comets, trees which provided food and could be identified with the beginning and end of seasons, the stars as both navigational aids and season indicators (including Sirius as indicator the Nile floods were about to start), birds, which were food and all-important season indicators, predator animals such as the lion, vicious attacking animals such as the boar and the aurochs*...

Could keep going. but you get the idea. Identifying the start and end of seasons was all-important.

(Just for you, why is 72 such an important number?)

First, all these will be known, their importance recognised, and they will be given significant names.

As we evolved socially, began developing art and abstract thinking, we elaborated on these themes.

First they would have been venerated, then deified. Julius Caesar was just one of countless heroes who became a god.

As usual, Robert Graves keeps me on this track. He shows how migrating tribes from around the Mediterranean took their original stories with them.

Names changed according to cultural languages and, over time, the origins were forgotten.

That did not stop people embellishing on those oral stories. Great legendary heroes became gods or sons of gods; successful invasions and wars were attributed to the appropriate deities, some of which were absorbed into the defeated cultures.

We see this in the Iliad: Hera, Athena, and Thetis siding with the Greeks, Aphrodite, Apollo, Poseidon, and Athena (briefly) with the Trojans.

By the time we were building great cities our deities became even more important and no longer merely metaphors for nature.

Graves shows how the same themes under different names were shared by virtually all the British and European city States.

No doubt, either, that Indian mythologies are very often close to identical to European ones. Vishnu rides on the King of Birds, Garuda, who is an eagle. The Celtic gos Lugh also is associated with the eagle, something we see in many other cultures.

The crane is important. Flying in V formation, it became assimilated with the early alphabet, carved as strokes on wood.

Not at all hard to see how human egos would have meant we expanded simple stories into great sagas.

*Looks like the aurochs may be on the way back:

https://www.eurowildlife.org/n...ests-and-grasslands/

Another bit of synchronicity. Tolkien knew his mythologies, and elven steel was supreme, making the best weapons:

The Excalibur was made by an Avalonian elf.

Ynys Afallon, as you know, is all-important for me, my destination after I shuffle off this mortal coil for yet another time.

As always, when looking this up I found another jewel for embellishment:

http://www.ynysafallon.com/wri...ddessesofavalon.html
Blodeuwedd is the Lady of Initiation. She calls us to cast off the garments of expectation and to peer into the darkness of the self to find, and ultimately live, our inner truth. She teaches us to fly where others would see us grounded.

Doubt that Christianity, and certainly not Churchianity, can achieve that.


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The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1606 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:

Yeah, thanks for that. I know you use "you booger", but in this instance I prefer the English version Smile-Big   :D

With my brain stuffed with information, I now must go and share a beer or three and a smoke or two with the birds while I try to clear my head. (Now we are in autumn I can even get to see the beginning of my news program which starts at 6.30pm.)

One thing does stand out.

The Jews like nothing better than than piling up the words so the plebs have no chance of working things out.

Even stripped down to basics it remains confusing.

As the Jews well knew, most if not all kings were gods or direct representatives of gods, selected because their qualities were what the gods needed.

Then they got stuck into mixing it all up.

Those nomads and later priests must have had endless time on their hands. Just like today's Ultra-Orthodox, who have nothing else to do but read the Torah, the Talmud, and the midrashim.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1606 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

Yeah, thanks for that. I know you use "you booger", but in this instance I prefer the English version Smile-Big   :D

With my brain stuffed with information, I now must go and share a beer or three and a smoke or two with the birds while I try to clear my head. (Now we are in autumn I can even get to see the beginning of my news program which starts at 6.30pm.)

One thing does stand out.

The Jews like nothing better than than piling up the words so the plebs have no chance of working things out.

Even stripped down to basics it remains confusing.

As the Jews well knew, most if not all kings were gods or direct representatives of gods, selected because their qualities were what the gods needed.

Then they got stuck into mixing it all up.

Those nomads and later priests must have had endless time on their hands. Just like today's Ultra-Orthodox, who have nothing else to do but read the Torah, the Talmud, and the midrashim.

You're welcome, Dahlin'.

Have a beer for me as I anticipate being in ruff shape over the next few days...my appointment is tomorrow.

Got myself several bags of frozen berries/fruits, yogurt, and pomegranate juice to make some slushy drinks with, and some eggs to scramble. That'll be just about all I will be able to handle for a bit, or so I'm told...

Not looking forward to the pain meds either.

Hope to be back around in a few days. Until then, y'all take care.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 4310 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Have a beer for me as I anticipate being in ruff shape over the next few days...my appointment is tomorrow.


That'll take more than a beer.

We are with you all the way.

Can't imagine what you are going through.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1606 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Have a beer for me as I anticipate being in ruff shape over the next few days...my appointment is tomorrow.


That'll take more than a beer.

We are with you all the way.

Can't imagine what you are going through.


That’s probably a good thing!
 
Posts: 5226 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
That’s probably a good thing!


That thought had occurred.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1606 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
(Just for you, why is 72 such an important number?)

Number of vertices in the E6 polytope, the geometry of the sephirot and Sri Yatra.

quote:
First, all these will be known, their importance recognised, and they will be given significant names.

As we evolved socially, began developing art and abstract thinking, we elaborated on these themes.

First they would have been venerated, then deified. Julius Caesar was just one of countless heroes who became a god...

The Excalibur was made by an Avalonian elf.


Excalibur may be based on Caesar's sword:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocea_Mors

quote:
Crocea Mors (Latin for "Yellow Death") was the name given to Julius Caesar's sword, according to the legends presented by Geoffrey of Monmouth. In Middle Welsh versions, it is called Angau Coch ("Red Death") or Angau Glas ("Grey Death").

The British prince Nennius acquired it when, during single combat with Caesar, it got stuck in his shield. It killed everyone Nennius struck with it. Nennius died fifteen days after the battle of a head wound inflicted by Caesar, and the sword was buried with him.


quote:
Blodeuwedd is the Lady of Initiation. She calls us to cast off the garments of expectation and to peer into the darkness of the self to find, and ultimately live, our inner truth. She teaches us to fly where others would see us grounded.

Doubt that Christianity, and certainly not Churchianity, can achieve that.
I've read the Evangeline Walton novel version of the Mabinogion (via being a Stevie Nicks fan). For me now it has lots of comet imagery: spears, morphing into animal shapes, heads floating down the river, towers vanishing into the mists... heck a sword stuck in a rock/shield sounds like a comet. Caesar does have a comet for his deification:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar%27s_Comet

quote:
Caesar's Comet[2] (numerical designation C/-43 K1) – also known as Comet Caesar and the Great Comet of 44 BC – was perhaps the most famous comet of antiquity. Its seven-day visitation was interpreted by Romans as a sign of the deification of recently assassinated dictator, Julius Caesar (100–44 BC).
 
Posts: 904 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by bluelamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
(Just for you, why is 72 such an important number?)

Number of vertices in the E6 polytope, the geometry of the sephirot and Sri Yatra.


Much easier than that.

It's a calendar thingie.

Five seasons in the year; 5X72 = 360. With the sacred five days left over for rituals. (The White Goddess.

quote:
Crocea Mors (Latin for "Yellow Death") was the name given to Julius Caesar's sword, according to the legends presented by Geoffrey of Monmouth. In Middle Welsh versions, it is called Angau Coch ("Red Death") or Angau Glas ("Grey Death").
The British prince Nennius acquired it when, during single combat with Caesar, it got stuck in his shield. It killed everyone Nennius struck with it. Nennius died fifteen days after the battle of a head wound inflicted by Caesar, and the sword was buried with him.
...I've read the Evangeline Walton novel version of the Mabinogion (via being a Stevie Nicks fan). For me now it has lots of comet imagery: spears, morphing into animal shapes, heads floating down the river, towers vanishing into the mists... heck a sword stuck in a rock/shield sounds like a comet. Caesar does have a comet for his deification:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar%27s_Comet


I still have to go much further back. By the time of the Greek and Roman civilisations, the origins of most if not all mythologies would have been long forgotten. Was Arthur a Roman general, or was he a memory from the invasion of the Beaker People?

https://www.theguardian.com/sc...ient-dna-study-shows

It is understandable that all stories would have been modified as tribes drifted from one region to another through migration and invasion.

Nothing new under the sun, of course, so the stories from long before Çatalhöyük would have been exaggerated and embellished, only the names being changed to heighten the deeds of the later legendary heroes.

This might be more to your taste, though I note they still think those Hanging Gardens were in Babylon while it seems more likely they were in Ninevah.

https://www.theguardian.com/sc...y-a-century-of-study


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1606 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Have a beer for me as I anticipate being in ruff shape over the next few days...my appointment is tomorrow.


That'll take more than a beer.

We are with you all the way.

Can't imagine what you are going through.

Well, it's been 12 hours now and I have had neither a pain pill nor stiff drink. Either it's not as bad as anticipated or I a lot more tough than I thought.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 4310 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
... or I a lot more tough than I thought.


That'd be bloody right.

Never doubted it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1606 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Have a beer for me as I anticipate being in ruff shape over the next few days...my appointment is tomorrow.


That'll take more than a beer.

We are with you all the way.

Can't imagine what you are going through.

Well, it's been 12 hours now and I have had neither a pain pill nor stiff drink. Either it's not as bad as anticipated or I a lot more tough than I thought.



I think it’s relative, you’ve now known worse pain so you are tougher AND it’s not as bad!
 
Posts: 5226 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Much easier than that.

It's a calendar thingie.

Five seasons in the year; 5X72 = 360. With the sacred five days left over for rituals. (The White Goddess.
Yeah various people broke up that 360 in various ways for different purposes. There's also 12x30, 6x60, 18x20 and 10x36.

quote:
I still have to go much further back. By the time of the Greek and Roman civilisations, the origins of most if not all mythologies would have been long forgotten. Was Arthur a Roman general, or was he a memory from the invasion of the Beaker People?...
Yeah even if Great Britain got it via Rome, Rome could still have got it from somewhere.

quote:
This might be more to your taste...
Yeah I like geometry especially when derived from information theory. It's useful for physics, sacred geometry, personality theory, music, etc. Here's that 72 for music:

http://tony5m17h.net/RgVeda.html

quote:
"... Vedic Hymns ... are considered the foundation of later styles (like Gregorian chants) ... Physical vibrations of musical sound (nada) is connected to spiritual world ...

... Raga and Tala form the basis of Indian music. …

... Raga (rag in North, ragam in Tamil) ... a scalar melody form including basic scale and basic melodic structure. Sanskrit ranj means to color with emotion Scale of raga is shown in both ascending and descending form. Some raga include notes changing directions Some notes may have specific ornamentation (gamaka) Ground tone (beginning tone) is sa (like do in do re mi) Sa is most important note of the drone ... Later ... 72 possible combinations [compare 72 root vector elements of E6] …


That same source does a couple of the 360 day year divisions too:

http://tony5m17h.net/Bardo.html

quote:
The Mesoamerican 20 day names,
when combined with 13 numbers
in the same way as Chinese Stem-and-Branch pairs,
make up a 20x13 = 260 day Mayan cycle.

The Great Tzolkin of 46 Tzolkins = 11,960 days reconciles
the eclipse cycle with the 260-day Tzolkin cycle.

The Mayans related the 260 day cycle to the 365 day year,
getting a 260x365 = 94,900 day cycle,
with 52x365 = 18,980 day = 52 year periodicity.

The Mayans also used a 20x18 = 360 day year,
which, when related to the 20x13 = 260 day period,
makes up a 13x18 = 234 day cycle,
which is about twice the solar day on Venus.

The Egyptians also used a 360 day year,
represented by 36 decans, or zodiacal star configurations,
of about 10 degrees each,
located south of the plane of the ecliptic.
 
Posts: 904 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think it’s relative, you’ve now known worse pain so you are tougher AND it’s not as bad!

Honey, every pain is relative after a kidney stone!

Yep, had one of those 20+ years ago...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
I think it’s relative, you’ve now known worse pain so you are tougher AND it’s not as bad!

Honey, every pain is relative after a kidney stone!

Yep, had one of those 20+ years ago...


Yep, I had a pinched nerve in my neck. The phrase compared to your worst pain how is your pain on a scale of 0-10. That comparison put most of the rest at 0-1.45! On that scale, otherwise nerve pain is at at least 25! I see kidney stones in that area based ongall stones, which were probably at 15.
 
Posts: 5226 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Yep, I had a pinched nerve in my neck. The phrase compared to your worst pain how is your pain on a scale of 0-10. That comparison put most of the rest at 0-1.45! On that scale, otherwise nerve pain is at at least 25! I see kidney stones in that area based ongall stones, which were probably at 15.

Don't know much about gallstone pain, but when I stepped out of the shower to dry my toes and couldn't stand back up, I knew I was in for some hurting.

Had no idea what it was at the time because the pain radiated out to encompass my entire abdominal area and across my back.

They had given me 2 pain shots while I was at the hospital, so when I was released, I didn't have much pain. They also gave me a prescription for pain pills when they released me (after about 9 hours), which I decided not to have filled because I wasn't in pain. WRONG ANSWER! As soon as that last shot wore off, oops!

The drug store is only about 4 blocks from my house and I KNEW not to try to drive with that kind of pain, so I asked a neighbor to help me out. I hate pain pills but I took them for 5 days until I passed the 2 stones.

My niece, who's had 2 children and several kidney stones, says she'll have a baby over a kidney stone any time thank you very much!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 4310 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Mary Jean is back in a hotel for a couple of days. There was some problem with her daughter moving into the new house (she didn't go into any details). She'll let me know when they are all moved in.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Where's Allan?

I want to see if I can bite his butt with my new teeth!!!

LOL!   :lol:


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Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 4310 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Yep, I had a pinched nerve in my neck. The phrase compared to your worst pain how is your pain on a scale of 0-10. That comparison put most of the rest at 0-1.45! On that scale, otherwise nerve pain is at at least 25! I see kidney stones in that area based ongall stones, which were probably at 15.

Don't know much about gallstone pain, but when I stepped out of the shower to dry my toes and couldn't stand back up, I knew I was in for some hurting.

Had no idea what it was at the time because the pain radiated out to encompass my entire abdominal area and across my back.

They had given me 2 pain shots while I was at the hospital, so when I was released, I didn't have much pain. They also gave me a prescription for pain pills when they released me (after about 9 hours), which I decided not to have filled because I wasn't in pain. WRONG ANSWER! As soon as that last shot wore off, oops!

The drug store is only about 4 blocks from my house and I KNEW not to try to drive with that kind of pain, so I asked a neighbor to help me out. I hate pain pills but I took them for 5 days until I passed the 2 stones.

My niece, who's had 2 children and several kidney stones, says she'll have a baby over a kidney stone any time thank you very much!


The gallstones included an infection and radiating pain, we called an ambulance but they needed a diagnosis before I got pain meds. Still sounds like you were in more pain though. As for not taking pain pills, I couldn’t figured out why the doctor gave me perceset and lidocaine for a rash she called shingles! They were miserable when I went, but by the time I got home I knew why! And the delivery of meds takes 3 hours. Fortunately I had some perceset at home.
 
Posts: 5226 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Mary Jean is back in a hotel for a couple of days. There was some problem with her daughter moving into the new house (she didn't go into any details). She'll let me know when they are all moved in.


She had told me she was supposed to move into the master while they carpeted her room. I can think of several reason why that didn’t work.
 
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Where's Allan?

I want to see if I can bite his butt with my new teeth!!!

LOL!   :lol:


Oh, wow what big teeth you have gramma! You shouldn’t need too big a bite!
 
Posts: 5226 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Where's Allan?
I want to see if I can bite his butt with my new teeth!!!
LOL!   :lol:


Been a few years since there was any fun in that, pardner.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 1606 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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