Everyone,

As everyone knows (or should) by now, I have a special interest in freedom of religion issues, or the nexus of religion and politics. Normally I post articles like the following on the News forum since it gets more traffic, and therefore I'm likely to get more replies. But just because it's such a fast-moving board, articles tend to drop off the first page of the News board pretty quickly.

That's why I'm making an exception of the following Alternet article. It is timely and topical because it centers around Rick Perry's prayer event on August 6, 2011--and Rick Perry is positioning himself as a Republican presidential candidate. But the prayer event is just the tip of the iceberg--the iceberg being a movement called the New Apostolic Reformation, which has mostly flown under the radar until now.

The New Apostolic Reformation likes to bill itself as the greatest revolution in Christianity since the Protestant Reformation, and all of us freedom-loving folks better hope they are WRONG! As a Dominionist movement dedicated to the takeover of all aspects of American life and culture, it would be difficult to overstate the danger it poses to the separation of church and state in our country and the world.

I'm hoping this topic will become another long-running thread and stay on the first page at least until after the 2012 election.

The link is to page 1 of a 7-page article, long but definitely worth reading. If I were to sum up the message and the warning of this article in just a few words, it would go something like this: When the NAR and similar groups talk about "prayer warriors" or anyone's "Army of God," these militaristic metaphors are NOT just figures of speech. They are absolutely serious--deadly serious!

--Linda

The Biggest Religious Movement You Never Heard of: Nine Things You Need to Know About Rick Perry's Prayer Event

By Paul Rosenburg | August 6,2011

Perry's endorsers are not just a random group of radical evangelists but part of a large and little-understood international religious movement.

When Texas Gov. Rick Perry decided to stage a Texas-size prayer event — dubbed “The Response” — on Aug. 6, it no doubt seemed like the right thing to do at the time. It received little critical scrutiny when he announced it back in early June, except on websites that track these sorts of things. But after Rachel Maddow, drawing on these sites, did a segment highlighting some of the more bizarre statements made by Perry's high-profile religious endorsers, things cooled considerably — even though the real story is still not remotely well-understood.

“Perry’s endorsers are not just a random group of radical evangelists making outrageous statements,” researcher Rachel Tabachnick subsequently wrote at Alternet.org. “These are the apostles and prophets of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), the biggest international religious movement you never heard of.” Almost simultaneously, investigative reporter Forrest Wilder of the Texas Observer published an extensive article on Perry's prayer event and his endorsers, Rick Perry's Army of God.

The NAR's intellectual godfather, C. Peter Wagner, one of Perry's early endorsers, brags that it's the most significant change in how Christianity is practiced since the Protestant Reformation. Like him or not, in a sense he's right: With tens, even hundreds of millions of followers worldwide, the NAR's stress on Godlike prophetic and apostolic powers, its revisions of end-time prophecies, its methodology of “spiritual warfare” and its agenda of theocratic dominion over all aspects of society are not just threatening to modern secular democracy and the religious pluralism it protects, they have been sharply criticized by other conservative Christians as unbiblical, deviant teachings, even a form of the very demonic practices they obsessively declare war against. Indeed, the Assemblies of God — the largest Pentecostal denomination in America — condemned some of the NAR's teachings and practices as “deviant” in 2000, though Tabachnick told me that many within the denomination have since embraced the movement.

<snip>

Source: Alternet

Linda
This certainly is something worth reading and discussing.
I will return after reading the article.
Were you aware that the Apostle John was boiled in oil in the Roman Colisseum before being sent to the island of Patmos, where he wrote Revelation? Like Daniel's three associates, the hot oil did not affect him, but the record states all who were witnesses were converted to Christianity? This came from John the Apostle in Wikipedia. It is something to watch for here.
Donald

quote:

Were you aware that the Apostle John was boiled in oil in the Roman Colisseum before being sent to the island of Patmos, where he wrote Revelation? Like Daniel's three associates, the hot oil did not affect him, but the record states all who were witnesses were converted to Christianity?

Donald,

No, I didn't know that, nor do I care in the least. It's probably a big fat lie anyway. Believers just LOOOOVE to talk about miracles resulting in mass conversions, but when you look a little more closely into their claims you discover they are complete fabrications. The New Apostolic Reformation and similar theocratic groups are notorious for that sort of thing, and it was at least as bad or worse in antiquity. Since there is no way anyone living in the present can verify them, I take all biblical miracle stories with a huge grain of salt, whether from the Old or New Testaments.

You might as well understand right off the top that this is an anti-theocracy thread, which means I'm going to go very hard on all religion, the so-called "religions of the book" in particular. Even Sela isn't going to like it, and you definitely won't! So you may want to re-think whether or not you want to participate, because I intend to make it a very hostile environment for you.

--Linda

The various Dominionist and Christian Reconstructionist movements such as the NAR are a threat to secular society, but until recently there has been very little public awareness of just how radical and dangerous they are. But as they step out into the open to claim what they believe to be their "God-given" position of leadership and overlordship, public awareness has taken a sharp upswing. And as the awareness has grown, so has the backlash.

Gov. Rick Perry formally announced his candidacy for President today, confirming the worst fears of some of us. I was gratified to see this post on Democratic Underground last night, and proud to be one of those who recommended it and kicked it to the front page.

OK, I admit it. I will openly discriminate against the highly religious in the 2012 elections.

It's a very harsh post that doesn't mince words, and needless to say I fully share that sentiment. The keyword in the subject line is openly. That's also been my approach for years and I'm very grateful for the reinforcement.

--Linda

REPENT! REPENT!

Or something.

quote:

With tens, even hundreds of millions of followers worldwide,...

Linda,
     I read the article carefully and I agree with you that the NAR should have no place in US politics. I have
been looking—unsuccessfully—for some source that substantiates the claim that adherents number in the millions. What I've found suggests a large number of highly vocal centers with hardly any members. Do you have a reference that gives an actual head-count?
Seán

Well,

Sister Michele won the Iowa poll thing. I don't see any atheist, free-thinker whatever winning the Republican nomination. It will be some sort of a God believer for sure.

This subject reminds me of attempts by certain groups to sabotage public education, especially in certain science subject areas.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean:

quote:

With tens, even hundreds of millions of followers worldwide,...

Linda,
     I read the article carefully and I agree with you that the NAR should have no place in US politics. I have
been looking—unsuccessfully—for some source that substantiates the claim that adherents number in the millions. What I've found suggests a large number of highly vocal centers with hardly any members. Do you have a reference that gives an actual head-count?
Seán

Sean,

I'm sorry but I don't have a source for the number of adherents, and I don't think it would be too easy to come up with one either. The problem is that the NAR is officially "nondenominational," not affiliated with any of the traditional Christian denominations. As the part of the article I quoted points out, it's most closely associated with the Assembly of God church (Sarah Palin's church) even though AoG officially denounces it as heretical. Again:

quote:

they have been sharply criticized by other conservative Christians as unbiblical, deviant teachings, even a form of the very demonic practices they obsessively declare war against. Indeed, the Assemblies of God — the largest Pentecostal denomination in America — condemned some of the NAR's teachings and practices as “deviant” in 2000, though Tabachnick told me that many within the denomination have since embraced the movement.

Probably the best way to understand the NAR is not to focus on the actual numbers but on the leaders of the movement and their interrelationships. There is C. Peter Wagner who could be considered the founder, although he'd probably deny it. But he was the person who gave it the name "New Apostolic Reformation" and is probably its chief apostle although he's getting up there in years now (he's in his mid-80s). From page 2 of the article:

quote:

1.“The Response” Is Not a Broadly Representative Christian Event.

There's a heavy concentration of NAR figures among the endorsers, with several other of the most prominent figures joining Wagner, including Mike Bickle, founder of the Kansas City–based International House of Prayer (IHOP), Dr. John Benefiel, head of the Heartland Apostolic Prayer Network of Oklahoma City, and Cindy Jacobs of Generals International. Tabachnick ticked off a list of NAR endorsers, starting with five from IHOP: Luis and Jill Cataldo, IHOP staff members in Kansas City; Randy and Kelsey Bohlender of IHOP and The Call; Apostle Doug Stringer; and Dave Silker of IHOP.

“This is not a random cross-section of conservative Christians,” Wilder told me. “There is such an emphasis and disproportionate number of people that are very closely tied together, affiliated with this strain of neo-pentecostalism or charismatic movement, that it cannot be an accident.”

They aren't the only ones involved, of course. The Texas GOP has been avidly recruiting conservative Christians of all stripes for deep political involvement since the mid-1990s. Former state party vice-chair David Barton, a self-taught revisionist historian, has played a key role in this process. (He, too, is an endorser.) However, with the NAR's keen interest in establishing Christian dominion over politics as part of their “Seven Mountains” strategy (more on this below), it's no coincidence that they are significantly overrepresented.

Source

So the general religious environment or "culture" is what you'd call neo-pentecostal or charismatic, the speaking-in-tongues kind of thing, as opposed to straight fundamentalist. I don't know if all the NAR-affiliated churches encourage speaking in tongues, but they all believe their leaders were annointed or divinely ordained by God as the original 12 apostles of Jesus were on Pentecost. C. Peter Wagner made a list of the characteristics of a NAR "apostle," which I'll post in another note.

--Linda

Everyone,

Here's a very good thumbnail sketch of the NAR by my heroine Rachel Tabachnick, who specializes in researching and exposing the NAR and Christian Zionist movements. She's one of the regulars at my favorite anti-theocracy site, Talk to Action.

The Ideology and History of the New Apostolic Reformation

quote:

Ideology

The New Apostolic Reformation can now be defined as a distinct movement with a unique ideology. The leaders of the movement, called apostles and prophets, claim that this is the most significant change in Protestantism since Martin Luther and the Reformation. The stated goal of the NAR is to eradicate denominations and form a unified church that will be victorious against evil in the end times. Like many American fundamentalists, the apostles teach that the events of the end times are imminent, but unlike fundamentalists, the apostles see this as a time of great victory for the church.

Instead of escaping the earth (in the Rapture)* prior to the turmoil of the end times, they teach that believers will defeat evil by taking dominion, or control, over all sectors of society and government, resulting in mass conversions to their brand of Charismatic evangelicalism and a Christian utopia or "Kingdom" on earth. The end times narrative of the apostles is similar to that of the Latter Rain movement of the late 1940s and 1950s.

<snip>

Please note that "the Rapture" is NOT in any way part of NAR theology. It's all about dominion and power, not escapism.

I am constantly running across these references to "the Latter Rain movement of the late 1940s and 1950s" as the precursor to the NAR but don't know much about it. Guess it's time to check Wikipedia!

--Linda

quote:

Originally posted by Henry J:
This subject reminds me of attempts by certain groups to sabotage public education, especially in certain science subject areas.

Henry,

Education is definitely one of the "Seven Mountains" of culture that the NAR intends to take dominion over. In the near future I'm going to do a post about the Seven Mountains and what the tactics are for gaining control of them, but for now I'm simply going to list them from the Rachel Tabachnick article I just posted: arts; business; education; family; government; media; and religion.

There is more information at the link.

--Linda

Linda,
     Here is a list of NAR apostles complete with information about their ministries. Most are concerned primarily with selling religious merchandise; some try to teach their version of the Word. In no instance is there any indication that their followers are numerous.
Seán

quote:

Originally posted by Sean:
Linda,
     Here is a list of NAR apostles complete with information about their ministries. Most are concerned primarily with selling religious merchandise; some try to teach their version of the Word. In no instance is there any indication that their followers are numerous.
Seán

Sean,

That's a more complete list than any I've seen so far, with all the names in alphabetical order. It's a bit misleading though because it gives no indication of the relative importance of some of these apostles, which I'm familiar with from other sources (mainly T2A). For example: C. Peter Wagner and Cindy Jacobs are simply listed in alphabetical order along with the rest, with no indication given that they are two of the really big guns.

I promise you though that selling religious merchandise is only a sideline with the NAR, although some of that merchandise (the books and videos) are prime propaganda material for deceiving the gullible. Don't forget that these people don't believe there is anything wrong with lying for the sake of "The Kingdom." They lie to their own sheeple all the time, and of course they lie incessantly to the infidels of the secular world, even when their lies can be easily debunked.

For example: This article is Rachel Tabatchnick's newest for Talk To Action, written after Rick Perry threw his hat in the ring. She focuses among other things on apostle Jim Garlow, who told a reporter he wasn't familiar with the term New Apostolic Reformation...even though he's been involved with them for years!

quote:

Exhibit A: Jim Garlow and the Apostles

Sarah Posner's coverage of Rick Perry's stadium prayer rally included an interview with Jim Garlow, one of the major promoters of California's Proposition 8 and head of Newt Gingrich's Renewing American Leadership. Posner asked Garlow about objections of other conservative evangelicals to the participation of the NAR apostles in "The Response."

quote:

"When I asked Garlow about West's [Marsha West] complaint, he shrugged it off, saying that he was not familiar with the term New Apostolic Reformation, even though he knew its founder, Peter Wagner. `I have a lot of confidence in him spiritually,' Garlow said of Wagner."

Garlow's partnership with leading apostles did not begin with this event and it has been more than simply agreeing to fight abortion and gay rights. In addition to his work with the NAR on Proposition 8, Garlow has been a regular at New Apostolic events for several years, and has contributed to a book titled The Reformer's Pledge.

The next section focuses on the book The Reformer's Pledge, and its 10 contributing authors including Jim Garlow. The names:

Apostle Bill Johnson
Apostle Lance Wallnau
Apostle Chuck Pierce
Apostle Heidi Baker
Apostle C. Peter Wagner
Apostle James W. Goll
Apostle John Arnott
Apostle Cindy Jacobs
Apostle Lou Engle

and ... Jim Garlow

And yet he wasn't familiar with the term New Apostolic Reformation, huh? Yeah...RIGHT!!!

--Linda

C. Peter Wagner lectures on the New Apostolic Reformation (video)

That beech Cindy Jacobs is in the video also. I've only seen her in a couple of videos so far, but I have a visceral gut-level hatred of that woman already. I hate her nasal Southern (Texas?) accent and her too-perfect coiffure and pretty much everything about her...which of course includes what I know about her. The typical patriarchal woman...she just oozes the female fundie stereotype from every pore and I hate her.

--Linda

Henry and everyone,

This is another of Bruce Wilson's videos. I think you'll be interested even though it will make you very angry. Be sure and allow enough time to watch it since it's over 34 minutes long.

The War on Public Education

Naturally creationism is one of the big themes, but evolution isn't the only subject the revisionists butcher in their glossy textbooks. There's also global warming and history, including some historical topics I never realized could be politicized.

Basically these textbooks funded by right-wing billionaires are pushing an extreme laissez-faire economic agenda. Therefore all the revisionism serves that agenda either directly or indirectly. You'll be happy to know that the stories of horrible privations suffered by many citizens during the Great Depression were exaggerated. They are based on "unsubstantiated rumors" promulgated by evil commies and socialists wanting to destroy the free enterprise system.

--Linda

US: Meet the Christian Dominionist 'Prayer Warriors' Who Have Chosen Rick Perry as Their Vehicle to Power

Perry's event is not the first time NAR apostles have partnered with politicians. Alaskan Apostle Mary Glazier claimed Sarah Palin was in her prayer network since she was 24 years old and Glazier continued to have contact with Palin through the 2008 election. Prior to running for governor, Palin was "anointed" at Wasilla Assembly of God by Kenyan Apostle Thomas Muthee, a star in promotional media for the movement.

A partial list of those who have made nationally or internationally broadcast appearances with apostles includes Sam Brownback, Newt Gingrich, Mike Huckabee, Michele Bachmann, and Jim DeMint. Numerous others, including Rick Santorum, have participated in less publicized apostle-led events.

The list of state and local candidates partnering with the apostles' network includes Hawaii gubernatorial candidates James "Duke" Aiona, a Republican, and Mufi Hannemann, a Democrat. The conference call that got U.S. Senate candidate Katherine Harris in hot water with Jewish voters back in 2006, was led by Apostle Ken Malone, head of the Florida prayer warrior network. Apostle Kimberly Daniels recently won a seat on the Jacksonville, Florida city council -- as a Democrat.

Apostle Alice Patterson and Pastor C. L. Jackson stood with Rick Perry as he addressed the audience at his Houston prayer rally. This went unnoticed by members of the press, but sent a strong message to those familiar with Patterson and Jackson's activities in convincing African American pastors in Texas to leave the Democratic Party and become Republicans.

Transformation is the movement's buzzword for taking control over communities. The Transformation entities usually begin as prayer networks of pastors and individuals that are advertised as nonsectarian. Charitable activities are emphasized as a way to gain a foothold in financially strapped municipalities and they provide faith-based services from emergency response to juvenile rehabiliation. Today NAR has "prayer warrior" networks under the authority of their apostles in all 50 states, some now organizing by precincts.

The movement has had a widespread impact, spreading ideology to other Charismatics inside Mainline Protestant denominations and Roman Catholicism, although non-Charismatic Roman Catholicism is viewed as controlled by a powerful demon named "The Queen of Heaven." Over the last few years, the apostles have taken visible leadership roles in the Religious Right in the United States and numerous nations in Africa, Asia, and South America and claim Uganda as their greatest "Transformations" success story and prototype.

Bluelamp,

It's great to see you posting at Aantares again, especially on this thread. It's been kind of going nowhere for the past couple of days as I've been continuing to do research. I got all the way through the SOTT article before I thought to look at the author's name. It's by Rachel Tabachnick, one of my favorite researchers at Talk To Action. Rachel has another article up at TTA about the Christian Zionists, who are a branch of the NAR. Evangelization of the Jews is a very big part of their agenda for world domination. Well, DUH...tell me something I didn't know already!

I posted two of the three comments after this newest TTA article. Maybe you'd like to take a look at them? I'm kinda proud of the longer one. Christian Zionism Exposed.

Love and Light,
Linda

I'm reposting my Talk to Action comment here, just to see if I like it as much as I did last night. There are definitely some things I want to add to it before I turn it into a blog post (if I do).

--Linda

It's amazing how much bare-faced revisionism

can be packed into a few short lines, but since we're dealing with Christian Zionism as an aspect of Dominionism and a thinly-disguised vehicle for Christian anti-Semitism, I really shouldn't be surprised (and I'm not).

quote:

"I have become convinced that Rabbinic Judaism is a more severe departure from biblical faith than I had ever realized in my early days of Jewish recovery...The atmosphere of New Testament carried on the spirit of the Hebrew Scriptures pervasively and profoundly. The essence of Rabbinism is a severe departure, replacing revelation with human reason...We who are Jewish are biblical New Covenant Jews, not Rabbinic Jews!"

A few considerations off the top of my head: What he's calling "biblical faith," also known as "biblical Judaism" or "Old Testament Judaism," DOES NOT EXIST and never has existed at any time in history. It's purely a fabrication of evangelical Christianity. All forms of modern Judaism are variants of Rabbinic Judaism, aka Pharisaic Judaism. That goes for the three major denominations--Reform, Conservative and (especially) Orthodox Judaism--as well as their more recent offshoots such as the Jewish Renewal Movement, which the Christian Reconstructionists would no doubt consider a horrendous New Age heresy if they even knew it exists. We Jews are quite capable of handling our own spiritual regeneration whenever it becomes necessary, and we have never asked the Inquisitors of any era for their permission or approval.

The hostility of Christian orthodoxy towards Rabbinic Judaism and its foundational work, the Talmud, is not new by a long way. It had its roots in a power struggle in the early church between the original disciples of Jesus--all of whom considered themselves Jews--and the apostle Paul, who had great success in converting gentiles who had never been Jews to the new religion. A controversy arose (barely glossed over in Acts of the Apostles) over whether or not a convert to Christianity had to first be circumcised in accordance with Jewish law, and whether they had to follow the dietary laws. This led to some horrendously anti-Pharisaic statements on the part of Paul and his followers, which over time became the foundation of Christian anti-Semitism as the political situation became more polarized after the revolt of 70 C.E. and the destruction of the Temple.

But all of that (and a lot more!) is real history, not the revisionist history aggressively proclaimed by the Dominionists in an effort to drown out the truth and eradicate it. Their proselytizing efforts can only succeed with Jews who have had no Jewish education AT ALL, who may have Jewish ancestry but are functionally illiterate in even the basics of Jewish religion and history.

Re "The essence of Rabbinism is a severe departure, replacing revelation with human reason..."

That's a huge distortion and falsification right there. The "reason vs. revelation" controversy has nothing to do with the essence of Rabbinic Judaism. It dates from the Enlightenment of the 18th century, maybe somewhat earlier but not much. The rabbis of the Talmud and their spiritual descendants were ALL believers in revelation. They believed, absolutely and with perfect faith, that God had made a Covenant with their ancestors at Mount Sinai which was binding upon them and their descendants forever. They were willing to sacrifice their lives for the Covenant if it came down to that, and as Christianity increased in political power many of them were called upon to do just that--or else they had martyrdom forced on them, willing or not.

The Orthodox believe that the oral Torah (i.e. the Talmud) was given to Moses at Mount Sinai along with the written Torah, and it was continuously elaborated to adapt the written Torah to changing conditions. It was passed "from mouth to ear" for centuries before it finally became too much for anyone to memorize, so eventually it was written down.

I'm sorry I spent so much time belaboring the obvious. I really hadn't intended to do that when I started typing this note. But I have been asked questions like this by Christian fundamentalists on various interfaith debate boards: "If it comes down to a conflict between the Torah and the Talmud, which one do you follow? What is your final authority?" For some reason fundamentalist Christians place an inordinate importance on Final Authorities. They never like my answer, "My own reason and conscience, of course" but that's another post.

To answer the question in somewhat the spirit it's asked, though: There is not and cannot be any conflict between the Torah and the Talmud in traditional Judaism, since the oral Torah is an elaboration of the written Torah. It's inconceivable that there could ever be any inherent conflict, although there are endless differences of opinion as to the interpretation of a given text. These differences of opinion are themselves preserved in the Talmud and are considered controversies "for the sake of Heaven." The question itself is a falsification and a distortion. It's one more attempt to impose an extreme Christian dualism on the unitive spirit of Judaism.

--Linda aka Raksha

Linda, ideally reason plus revelation is just going back to gnostic ideas (whether it be Jewish, Christian, Pagan, Eastern, whatever). Go back far enough (like Atlantis or something) and they all came from the same place and it's all been messed up a lot since in various places and some power hungry bad guys have uses for the mess ups.

quote:

Originally posted by bluelamp:
Linda, ideally reason plus revelation is just going back to gnostic ideas (whether it be Jewish, Christian, Pagan, Eastern, whatever). Go back far enough (like Atlantis or something) and they all came from the same place and it's all been messed up a lot since in various places and some power hungry bad guys have uses for the mess ups.

Bluelamp,

Well, as you know I have never believed there is or should be any inherent conflict between reason and revelation, or reason and intuition, which is the way I usually normally express it to myself. If a conflict presents itself, one or the other is likely to be WRONG. Historically, the really spectacular screw-ups (Galileo et al.) have usually been on the side of revelation, particularly in the case of the "revealed religions" which depend on arbitrary authority for their validity. But I can think of some private revelations that have been spectacularly wrong too.

So if I do have to choose, I'm on the side of reason. You can still screw up, but the fallout usually isn't as bloody as with revelation. Not as many people end up getting killed. But I deeply resent having to make the choice to begin with. I believe in polarity, but I'm extremely wary of any kind of dualism, even Gnostic dualism. I don't believe the polarities (especially the big ones, Good and Evil) represent irreconcilable opposites locked in a duel to the death with each other. Such a belief inevitably produces that exact situation in the real world. Which is what we're dealing with on this planet right now.

Love and Light,
Linda

Linda, yes right now the problem is just plain psychopaths without empathy and they aren't even smart enough or dark side of the force enlightened enough to qualify as any kind of evil in an evil vs good esoteric battle sense. There could be that kind of evil but it's mainly an out of public view or Jungian archetype influence kind of thing at this point I would think. By Gnostic I mainly meant that lots of religion stories (historic or not) qualify as the heroic archetype.

http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Heroic_Archetype

-- John G.

quote:

Originally posted by bluelamp:
Linda, yes right now the problem is just plain psychopaths without empathy and they aren't even smart enough or dark side of the force enlightened enough to qualify as any kind of evil in an evil vs good esoteric battle sense.

Bluelamp,

I REALLY like the way you put that! What you're saying is that the NAR is basically just a collection of inept Darth Vaders. As Evil goes, they are strictly amateur night. I agree, but just plain psychopaths can still do a lot of damage. Don't turn your back on 'em, or write them off as a sick joke as so many people do. They are very dangerous.

quote:

There could be that kind of evil but it's mainly an out of public view or Jungian archetype influence kind of thing at this point I would think.

I take it you're referring to something formal and organized, such as esoteric orders. For years I've heard talk of the Black Brotherhood, and there is no question that certain orders dedicated to evil have existed in the past, and may still exist now. And certain names come up over and over again in this context, most notoriously Aleister Crowley and his pupil Jack Parsons, and L. Ron Hubbard. I assume there are others I haven't heard about. No question that they were all bad dudes and cult leaders, but are they really that much worse than people who do evil in the name of "God"?

I'll have more to say about the unconscious Jungian archetype influence in another post.in another post. Nobody ever gets away from that, and the NAR is no exception.

quote:

By Gnostic I mainly meant that lots of religion stories (historic or not) qualify as the heroic archetype kind of thing.http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Heroic_Archetype

I read the description at your link and it's a good one, but this is just not a good week to be talking to me about the Heroic Archetype. I never thought it would happen, but I'm starting to get a little jaded with it these days.

--Linda

And they vote, too.

Henry

Linda, probably both psychopaths and non-psychopaths could use God as an excuse and in a sense a psychopath could be worse by being more reckless. A selfish non-psychopath could have trouble keeping a psychopath from doing too much damage. Good vs psychopaths is certainly dangerous for the good but it's more like trying to disable a bunch of malfunctioning machines rather than going against someone who is into deeply understanding reality.

For the heroic archetype I like the idea of Noah just building an ark cause it seemed like a fun thing to do and it just turned out to be useful. It's like we just do what we like or seem good at and take it as far as we can. We perhaps get a little behind the scenes help and maybe a little synchronicity for some awareness of the help. How whatever we do fits the big picture is kind of an unknown until later and it's not like the heroes of myth were always perfect; sometimes you have to try again later.

-- John G.

quote:

For the heroic archetype I like the idea of Noah just building an ark cause it seemed like a fun thing to do and it just turned out to be useful. It's like we just do what we like or seem good at and take it as far as we can. We perhaps get a little behind the scenes help and maybe a little synchronicity for some awareness of the help.

Bluelamp,

Speaking of synchronicity, it's all been hitting the fan big time for me over the past few days. And I don't mean in a good way either. It's been gritty; I've had the Dark Trickster working overtime again.

And so by a train of associations, one thing led to another and then another--and earlier tonight I found myself doing a search on a name on Facebook. He didn't even have a computer (that I know of) the last time I had any contact with him, yet I found him on the very first try. Sent him a friend request which he might or might not respond to--I'd put the odds at about 50/50.

But that wasn't the end of the train of associations. I recalled the last letter I sent him and went to dig out the file copy. The letter is dated September 15, 2009--almost two years ago. In the same file folder with that letter I found one other document, dated April 19, 2009, called "Journal Transcript and Channeling." Did I ever send that to you? I guess I can check my e-mail folders tomorrow and find out, but I normally don't transcribe my journal entries unless I'm planning on sharing them with someone, which I very rarely do.

Anyway, this particular channeling is VERY relevant to everything we've been discussing on this thread, namely the Black Brotherhood and the NAR. It came to me as I was reading it over that while the NAR is NOT the Black Brotherhood, it is full-blown esoteric Evil (the Black Brotherhood) pulling the strings from behind the scenes. My source was quite emphatic about "the political/occult aspect of things."

This isn't meant to be fatalistic but the opposite. It's what I've always known: As they reach forth their hands to seize power, they can't help but reveal themselves for exactly what they are, in all their ugliness, greed and brutality. Their disguises fall away and they can no longer hide behind a facade of "godliness." The world sees them for what they are and rejects them.

Things may still get very, very bad for a few years, but in the end they are going down.

Love and Light,
Linda