quote:

I find it difficult to react strongly to threatened ice ages, plagues, wars, famines or drying puddles in the desert.—Seán

     That applies to abstract, threatened disasters. When real suffering occurs, as in the Haiti earthquake, I tend to fall apart.
Seán    

Sean

I think most people are with you in considering abstract disasters. On the other hand I think PBS is doing its best to make similar disasters in the past very palpable. I was watching the photos of the 1906 San Francisco about 7M earthquake the day of the 7.0M quake ten miles from Port-au-Prince, Haiti.

Haiti is known for its weird religious stuff, the missionaries that go there to set the record straight, and unbelievable poverty. This 7M quake has set themb back to the last Ice Age, and smacks of the severity of Revelation 16:18:

quote:

17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

This is really spooky, and hudreds of thousands of Haitians no longer live on this planet. I really wonder how Haiti will survive.

Notes:
Space was previously called "the heavens". Think of all the heavens created by the drug culture. The Gateway tv series is an adventure into exploring the heavens. Even Jesus is said to go to prepare mansions in Heaven. Maybe it has suburbs? Paul talked about the Seventh Heaven. If God said it, He can do it.

I do think our heaven is close to our Earth, and I believe God is quite capable of renovating our current structures to fit his needs. He blows up stars...

I also believe Scripture that says God is a jealous God, and he doesn't want the human race to do some things, especially those that imitate him. That requires some definition, however, if anyone is interested.

Sean, the situation in Haiti must be scaring that that emigrated elsewhere.
I'm concerned where all that magnitude 5 and 7 energy is going to reappear shortly. That kind activates volcanos, and Soufriere Hills in the West Indies island of Montserrat is already blowing its head off. The Haiti quake is on the East-West fault to Mexico and Central America. There is more, but I will wait a bit to see where quakes of 5M and greater show up.

In the meantime we can hold hands here and wait.

Donald

Donald,
     Our earth's structure is still in a state of flux, and human tragedies will happen whenever a population is located where a major crustal shift occurs. I deplore the resultant suffering, but would not dream of blaming God for it. He neither causes disasters of this kind nor does anything to make them better. Most likely humans worsened this one by filling a large city with substandard structures. Any help the victims get will come from other humans.
     The early estimates of death from earthquakes may be exaggerated greatly and I dearly hope that is the case with this one. What is looming now is the aftermath of sickness. We know the water is bad there and the sewers are probably a shambles; couple those conditions with a plethora of endemic diseases, crowding and immunities reduced by deprivation and you have the ingredients for an unbridled epidemic that could wreak more havoc than the temblor. I hope our will to help continues through this second phase.
Seán

Sean

As one interested in the effects prophesied by Malthus, and as a Christian, I can believe in both a passive and an active role for God in the Universe. As you imply, this great tragedy is not an active deed of God, but one of those crossroads of earthly energy that are a part of creation. Nevertheless, if there is a message from God in this, it is indeed related to human activity, and God will work through people to alleviate suffering as part of his love.

I am very uncertain, however, that this very poor country can put itself back together, if we rich Americans cannot restore New Orleans. Talk about the dent in our national debt! I do think we need to get as many Haitians back on their feet as we can. I do wonder how the traditional rivalry between Dominicans and Haitians will impair the progress.

Donald

quote:

I do think our heaven is close to our Earth, and I believe God is quite capable of renovating our current structures to fit his needs. He blows up stars...

I also believe Scripture that says God is a jealous God, and he doesn't want the human race to do some things, especially those that imitate him. That requires some definition, however, if anyone is interested.

Donald,

Which finger am I holding up?

I've been avoiding this board all day because of the Haitian earthquake. I knew before I ever looked what attitude you were going to take about it--and I was right, of course. You always lick your chops whenever there's a major earthquake anywhere in the world. You think "God" is sending a message to somebody--in this case it's all those decadent voodoo practitioners in Haiti, which from your POV makes it even "better."

Of course I still have you on ignore so I didn't have to read your posts, but I knew I wouldn't be able to resist, if only to confirm my suspicions. And you didn't disappoint me. Or rather you did because you didn't, if you take my meaning.

--Linda

quote:

Our earth's structure is still in a state of flux, and human tragedies will happen whenever a population is located where a major crustal shift occurs. I deplore the resultant suffering, but would not dream of blaming God for it. He neither causes disasters of this kind nor does anything to make them better.

Sean,

Yeah, but Donald isn't blaming God. He's crediting God with taking out his alleged wrath on a decadent population whose religion he has never even tried to understand. It's not quite as horrible as he makes it out to be. And that's precisely what makes his attitude so disgusting.

quote:

Most likely humans worsened this one by filling a large city with substandard structures. Any help the victims get will come from other humans.

Right. The amount of damage an earthquake can do in an urban environment isn't dependent so much on the magnitude of the quake itself as on the stability of the structures. That's why we have such strict building codes here in California. After the last big quake here (I believe it was the Loma Prieta quake) all unreinforced buildings were either retrofitted with steel reinforcing rods or torn down. The few that are still left in historic districts have signs announcing to the public that they are unreinforced and may be unsafe in the event of an earthquake.

I understand that in Haiti building codes are virtually nonexistent, and as we know most of the population is desperately poor. I hope the Haitians get ALL the help they need from the rest of the world. A Marshall Plan for Haiti wouldn't be a bad idea at all!

--Linda

Any God who works through fear and vindictiveness rather through love and charity deserves no support from anyone. Donald and, alas, Pat Robertson are saying that the victims of the Haiti earthquake not only deserve to be killed but brought the earthquake upon themselves somehow by their evil attitudes or deeds. Robertson even says they made a pact with Satan and the earthquake represents the retribution of God (his God, of course).

Aside from the imbecility of anyone believing such superstitious nonsense, why would anyone worship a God who acts in that way? Apparently tens of thousands, perhaps more, were killed and injured, including many innocent babies and children.

Primitive man invented Gods and sacrificed to them to avoid their wrath and make the crops grow and the sicknesses end. They were bribing powerful creatures who meant them harm. The same notion persists today, obviously. It's so sad that we have not progressed beyond these superstitions despite our understanding of how they arose.

Jeff

quote:

Any God who works through fear and vindictiveness rather through love and charity deserves no support from anyone. Donald and, alas, Pat Robertson are saying that the victims of the Haiti earthquake not only deserve to be killed but brought the earthquake upon themselves somehow by their evil attitudes or deeds. Robertson even says they made a pact with Satan and the earthquake represents the retribution of God (his God, of course).

Jeff,

I read about Pat Robertson's disgusting remark first on the News board last night and then on Democratic Underground. It doesn't surprise me in the least that Donald sounds just like Robertson--it's the same mindset, after all. And just like Robertson, he is now trying to back away from the implications of what he said in the face of near-universal contempt and ridicule.

quote:

Primitive man invented Gods and sacrificed to them to avoid their wrath and make the crops grow and the sicknesses end. They were bribing powerful creatures who meant them harm. The same notion persists today, obviously. It's so sad that we have not progressed beyond these superstitions despite our understanding of how they arose.

Most of us HAVE progressed beyond it, though. The widespread disgust with Pat Robertson's latest piece of callous idiocy is precisely what I find so encouraging. The vast majority of the human race (the literate portion of it anyway) seems to have finally outgrown this superstitious nonsense about a jealous and vindictive God who pays back certain populations with massive earthquakes if they fail to worship him in the "right" way. It's the blaming the victim mindset in spades, or as someone said in a DU topic last night, it's the predator's mindset.

That's what I hate so much about fundamentalists--they are basically amoral people. No ethics, no human decency to speak of whatsoever.

--Linda

quote:

I also believe Scripture that says God is a jealous God, and he doesn't want the human race to do some things, especially those that imitate him.—EQ

Donald,
     I know gospel was used to translate euangélion—a Greek word meaning "good news"—but it is obviously derived by elision from the Old English "goddes spell," which really means "God's word." I think you use it in the latter sense, asserting any statement in the Scriptures is infallibly correct while any evidence to contradict it is specious, deceptive or in error, hence unworthy of attention.
     If I am right about this, I certainly do not fault you. I find you faithfulness impressive, although I cannot help but wonder how you insulate your religion from your considerable awareness of the laws of nature. Can you resolve this seeming contradiction?
Seán  

The etymologies at dictionary.reference.com say that it's literally "good news", directly into early English from the Greek, not "God's word".
--
Stephen

Stephen,
     I read the "gospel" reference at dictionary.reference.com. It relies on the origin offered by Random House, unabridged. I have that dictionary, so I looked up "spell" and found it does mean "word" or "discourse" among other things. Unsatisfied by that, I also searched the Oxford English Dictionary; an essay in it explains in detail that the original intent was to say "Good news" and not "God's word" as I supposed. I was plainly wrong.
     My error adds weight to my question: If gospel means only "good news," why do the faithful maintain it is the inerrant word of God?
Seán

Hey!

You guys have done a great job for exploring a divine interpretation of what happened in Haiti. I'll tell you this, having been on the island of Hispaniola in the Dominican Republic three times, that when I saw the quake magnitudes rolling down the list, my knees were shaking and I had an acute attack of severe vertigo, such that I almost fell out of my chair. That folks, is a fear of God working. It was a true fear of perdition for those not knowing God, and a heartfelt farewell for all Christians there trying to convince them otherwise.

Linda is right that my continiuing bias is that Revelation is a biblical book relevant to these times, and my focus has been on the period after the fall of Babylon (whatever that is) and the "great earthquake" described in 16:18.
Haiti become an instant model because of all the circumstances that make Haiti that are impacted by these rollling big earthquakes there. Look here...the swarms of earthquakes are rolling, being of global warming and/or a manifestation of God's will. The ones I mention in this week's EARTH & SUN DIGEST are in the Solomon Islands, northern California, Baja California, and of course Haiti. Why now? I have also mentioned that sufficient high volcanic ash eruption can turn all this into global cooling, and the Darwin VAAC is a weekly compilation global VAAC report. Ecuador has two volcanos erupting high, and Montserrat SE of Puerto Rico is an inferno, etc.

At this point in time I think I need to remind believers that God does heal and welcomed Oral Roberts home recently. His university is getting back on track.
This element is true, that God heals individuals and stays close to those he healed. That is not to say some don't stray after their healing, to the sorrow of those in Heaven watching.

I can predict this, that nothing will be enough to heal Haiti, and that the energy generated by its earthquakes is enough to trigger its old volcano.

So, stay tuned, and let the love of God comfort you all,
Donald

quote:

You guys have done a great job for exploring a divine interpretation of what happened in Haiti. I'll tell you this, having been on the island of Hispaniola in the Dominican Republic three times, that when I saw the quake magnitudes rolling down the list, my knees were shaking and I had an acute attack of severe vertigo, such that I almost fell out of my chair. That folks, is a fear of God working.

I can't think of anyone who deserves your God more than you do... except for Pat Robertson, of course.

Have I told you lately that I HATE YOUR GOD? You haven't heard that one in a while, have you? I thought it was about time that I reminded you of it.

quote:

It was a true fear of perdition for those not knowing God, and a heartfelt farewell for all Christians there trying to convince them otherwise.

Yeah, I remember one of those Christian missionaries who "tried to convince them [the Haitians] otherwise." The way I would put it is that he spent a lot of time and energy to trying to convince them that *his* superstitions were preferable to *theirs.* Typical RW fundie nutjob who used to post on one of "your" threads on *P Classic. I still remember what a thoroughly unpleasant person he was and how much I hated his guts.

In light of the recent earthquake, I just came within an inch of wishing that loser some really bad karma, but I restrained myself. I tend to be a bit superstitious about my own karma...and I do live in earthquake country after all.

--Linda

Linda

First of all, I don't think it makes any difference if God has decided to do something, since he already knows all our needs.

All I am doing it trying to document what is happening. Can you imagine the new free (poor) Haitians working for Al Qaida in Guantanamo if those prisoners are still there?

Here are a couple of references on volcanic activation related to the Samoa earthquakes. West Mata is an island in the midst of the aftershock activity from the Samoan strong earthquake. The curved line aroun West Mata is the elbow of the Pacific fault between Samoa and Tonga.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...e/article6961323.ece
http://sz0030.ev.mail.comcast....n_US&id=56860&part=2

I hope the sailors aboard that aircraft carrier monitor water temperature.

Donald

Here is package report on a severe earthquake in the Dominican Republic in 1946. There are marked differences in the quality of this and the Haitian 7.0M

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1..._Republic_earthquake

Donald

quote:

All I am doing it trying to document what is happening. Can you imagine the new free (poor) Haitians working for Al Qaida in Guantanamo if those prisoners are still there?

Donald,

I don't know what the bleep that means and I don't care either.

--Linda

For those who care, I did a search on earthquakes around the island of Hispaniola to determine the activity. There is a lot of 4 magnitude seismic activity in the area around Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic, which are next to the deepest trench in the Atlantic Ocean. To make the data more manageable (and which are derived from a search of USGS data), I condensed the data to numbers for 4M quakes and listings for 5M quakes and above:

PDE 2007 06 08 133046.77 18.83 -70.32 112 5.0 mbGS 2F. .......
2007 whole year with 25 4M and one 5M
PDE 2008 12 18 171347.92 18.62 -69.41 104 5.1 MwGCMT 2FM .......
2008 whole year with 36 4M and one 5M
PDE 2009 02 14 074838.87 18.67 -68.92 121 5.0 MwGCMT 5FM .......
PDE-W 2009 03 04 223026.45 18.29 -68.56 163 5.0 mbGS 2F. .......
2009 whole year with 9 4M and two 5M
PDE-Q 2010 01 12 215310.17 18.46 -72.53 13 7.0 MwUCMT .CM .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 12 220041.99 18.35 -72.82 10 5.9 mbGS ... .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 12 221204.94 18.47 -72.50 10 5.5 mbGS ... .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 12 231204.31 18.39 -72.56 10 5.1 mbGS ... .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 13 004327.95 18.54 -72.49 10 5.0 mbGS ... .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 13 005906.04 18.26 -72.91 10 5.2 mbGS ... .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 13 011651.33 18.42 -72.85 10 5.1 mbGS ... .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 13 013244.50 18.38 -72.94 10 5.3 mbGS ... .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 13 013632.05 18.39 -72.86 10 5.5 mbGS ... .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 13 015734.86 18.41 -72.90 10 5.4 mbGS ... .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 13 050257.94 18.38 -72.96 10 5.8 MwUCMT ..M .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 13 051802.84 18.34 -72.92 10 5.2 mbGS ... .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 13 072304.07 18.35 -72.88 10 5.0 mbGS ... .......
PDE-Q 2010 01 13 144344.75 18.45 -72.92 10 5.3 mbGS ... .......
2010 to 1/14 31 4M, 13 5M and one 7M

An area ripe for earthquakes has become ripe for volcanic action.

Donald

quote:

Originally posted by Raksha:

I don't know what the bleep that means and I don't care either.

--Linda

It means your signature is possible again, bright lady.

Donald

This topic has all the earmarks of what's wrong with misguided religious belief.

Learn the lesson of "Bridge of San Luis Rey": What might be thought justification for God's punishment may prove instead an example of people deserving far better than this world has offered them.

quote:

I'll tell you this, having been on the island of Hispaniola in the Dominican Republic three times, that when I saw the quake magnitudes rolling down the list, my knees were shaking and I had an acute attack of severe vertigo, such that I almost fell out of my chair. That folks, is a fear of God working.

Really? It wasn't the fear of earthquakes working?

quote:

Originally posted by purplepentode:
This topic has all the earmarks of what's wrong with misguided religious belief.

Learn the lesson of "Bridge of San Luis Rey": What might be thought justification for God's punishment may prove instead an example of people deserving far better than this world has offered them.

Pentode and Lynn Dee,

Thank you for helping me out here. It's ironic that I actually agree with my arch-enemies that this Haitian earthquake is "The Big One," and will be seen in retrospect as marking the beginning of the New Age. Only NOT for the reasons they think and not in the way they think either. One of the first manifestations of it is that Americans will learn the true history of Haiti from the French Revolution until now. They aren't going to like what they see or what it says about us as a nation. I've been getting quite an education on Democratic Underground over the past few days, and I may post some of the material on the News forum.

Maybe the Marshall Plan I wanted for Haiti isn't such a pipe dream after all. THEN we'll see who has "God on their side"!

--Linda

Glad to be of help, but really I was just responding to EQ's post over on the News BB. Really, I just find it so offensive that anyone could think, let alone promote, the notion that God (a God, the God, any God) is punishing innocents for any reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Lynn Dee:
Glad to be of help, but really I was just responding to EQ's post over on the News BB. Really, I just find it so offensive that anyone could think, let alone promote, the notion that God (a God, the God, any God) is punishing innocents for any reason.

It's the only thing that makes EQ and Sela feel alive.

Holy Bhagworm

Linda,
     I am using The Conflict Between Haiti and the Dominican Republic as my source of information. Does it agree with what you've found?
Seán

All

The Bible does describe Judgment Day, so if I am shaking just reading about a massive earthquake swarm, imagine what God is capable of.

Someone noted that Haiti is the only French speaking nation in the Americas.
This is not so, as French Guiana is up the NE corner of South America.

Note that Haiti does speak a French dialect, while the Dominican Republic speaks Spanish.

Here is a study of the earthquakes in the Puerto Rico region, including Haiti:
(source: USGS)

(Latest On Top)
3.5 2010/01/16 12:16:23 18.458 -68.373 171.6 MONA PASSAGE, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
3.8 2010/01/16 11:51:40 19.354 -66.677 8.3 PuERTO RICO REGION
3.0 2010/01/16 08:25:35 18.907 -65.380 68.5 PUERTO RICO REGION
3.3 2010/01/16 08:23:36 19.268 -65.573 59.1 PUERTO RICO REGION
3.0 2010/01/16 07:53:18 19.188 -65.590 18.1 PUERTO RICO REGION
3.1 2010/01/16 07:48:12 18.958 -65.309 88.0 PUERTO RICO REGION
3.4 2010/01/16 06:55:48 18.974 -68.768 114.0 DOMINICAN REPUBLIC REGION
3.2 2010/01/16 04:44:40 19.028 -66.815 10.1 PUERTO RICO REGION
1/15 3M-9, 4M-4 (all HAITI REGION)
3.1 2010/01/15 23:58:08 18.545 -66.175 104.1 PUERTO RICO REGION
3.0 2010/01/15 23:43:21 18.985 -68.694 4.6 DOMINICAN REPUBLIC REGION
3.4 2010/01/15 22:42:09 19.067 -66.763 9.1 PUERTO RICO REGION
3.0 2010/01/15 22:23:17 19.125 -66.813 24.5 PUERTO RICO REGION
3.0 2010/01/15 22:06:08 19.123 -65.599 6.1 PUERTO RICO REGION
3.1 2010/01/15 21:58:21 19.092 -65.338 13.6 PUERTO RICO REGION
4.7 2010/01/15 21:04:47 18.012 -72.333 10.0 * HAITI REGION
4.6 2010/01/15 20:04:12 18.439 -72.856 10.0 * HAITI REGION
3.1 2010/01/15 17:15:52 18.827 -65.299 94.8 PUERTO RICO REGION
4.6 2010/01/15 13:41:44 18.401 -72.816 10.0 * HAITI REGION
3.0 2010/01/15 09:25:01 19.123 -65.612 6.2 PUERTO RICO REGION
4.7 2010/01/15 08:56:07 18.470 -73.020 10.0 * HAITI REGION
3.2 2010/01/15 07:49:12 19.028 -65.378 96.4 PUERTO RICO REGION
1/14 3M-1, 4M-4 (HAITI REGION)
3.0 2010/01/14 15:06:04 19.065 -65.897 39.1 PUERTO RICO REGION
4.8 2010/01/14 12:39:05 18.418 -72.782 10.0 * HAITI REGION
4.5 2010/01/14 10:32:30 18.480 -72.611 10.0 * HAITI REGION
4.7 2010/01/14 08:15:42 18.330 -72.765 10.0 * HAITI REGION
4.4 2010/01/14 05:03:07 18.476 -72.873 10.0 * HAITI REGION
1/13 3M-1, 4M-19, 5M-11 (HAITI)
5.8 2010/01/13 05:02:58 18.375 -72.960 10.0 ** HAITI REGION
1/12 3M-4, 4M-0, 5M-2, 6M-0, 7M-1 (HAITI REGION)
5.5 2010/01/12 22:12:05 18.485 -72.556 10.0 ** HAITI REGION
5.9 2010/01/12 22:00:42 18.271 -72.862 10.0 ** HAITI REGION
7.0 2010/01/12 21:53:10 18.451 -72.445 10.0 *** HAITI REGION

The best thing that can be said is that the quake size is down to the usual for the region (and California). Add that to the Moon being at its Far Point tomorrow.

Thank God!
Donald