Since the Road from 8/8/88 has taken many years, maybe it is time for another perspective in this series on eschatology.

The thought I had in mind today is that there is a terror method that seems to be working currently. The idea is that with minimal energy a protagonist can cause his target to expend huge amounts of money and energy trying to prevent attacks. The question is whether there is a more efficient way to solve the problem, or as the Bible say, "to chain Satan"

quote:

Revelation 20 NIV
The Thousand Years
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Obviously, evil is currently an everyday occurrence, in training camps, on pirate ships, in treatment of different groups of people, etc.

Is there light at the beginning of the Millennium?

One thought is that the structure of monetary systems allows for generating the funds for the battle. Osama bin Laden has been driven into the caves before.
So what is the chain that will keep him there? The biblical perspective is that even in death he will rise again before the Great White Throne.

Is there a greater menace than bin Laden? This is a spiritual question, answered in centuries past by a corraling of all or most of the followers.

What does an angel with a sufficient chain look like?

Donald

There was a movie in 2002 starring Paul Newman and Tom Hands by this name. It was Newman's last one.

Check out the synopsis at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_to_Perdition .

It has some meaning for me, since I grew up in the area it was filmed at, and actually stayed at the hotel where part of the action took place.

This string is not just about this movie. It does show, however, how complicated things can be.

Donald

Perhaps this string should first address this idea of an angel binding Satan with a chain.

This first suggests to me that evil will be controlled by a being capable of global action, presumably a spiritual force, here the angel, and not an angelic superperson. It would be something of the scope of godly action globally.

The chain is a special reminder that the action while directed at the source of evil, will affect people of evil inclination also, reducing their source of inspiration and strength. Earlier in the prior Road series the thinking came down to individuals being condemned by their own actions. This string looks at a reduction of resources for all peoples, which would strengthen self criticism and hence activities toward those more focused on survival. Thus chains could be food chains, fuel changes, as well as reduction of resources through environmental causee (warming, cooling, asteroids, etc.

Thus I plan to continue examining events as previously,

Donald

quote:

Originally posted by EQ:
There was a movie in 2002 starring Paul Newman and Tom Hands by this name. It was Newman's last one.

Check out the synopsis at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_to_Perdition .

It has some meaning for me, since I grew up in the area it was filmed at, and actually stayed at the hotel where part of the action took place.

This string is not just about this movie. It does show, however, how complicated things can be.

Donald

Who's Tom Hands?

Holy Bhagworm

Apparently, you didn't see the movie, the Donald. It was excellent!

Holy Bhagworm

Donald,

You are probably the only regular on this board who equates evil with Islamic terrorism above and beyond all else. In other words--you're a typical RWW whether it comes to both politics and religion. Check out the poll on the News board--the majority of us here equate *evil* with the likes of Dick Cheney!

So there's a definite conflict of interest here. I don't see how it's possible for a conservative to engage in dialogue with a liberal on the nature of evil.

--Linda

HB

I did see it. I agree with you.

Donald

quote:

Originally posted by Holy Bhagworm:

quote:

Originally posted by EQ:
There was a movie in 2002 starring Paul Newman and Tom Hands by this name. It was Newman's last one.
Donald

Who's Tom Hands?

Holy Bhagworm

Oops. That is the same Tom Hanks that stars in Angels and Demons.

Sorry. And he is one of my favorites, too.

Donald

quote:

Originally posted by Raksha:

You are probably the only regular on this board who equates evil with Islamic terrorism above and beyond all else. .. Check out the poll on the News board--the majority of us here equate *evil* with the likes of Dick Cheney!

So there's a definite conflict of interest here. I don't see how it's possible for a conservative to engage in dialogue with a liberal on the nature of evil.

--Linda

Linda
Actually I was trying to avoid identifying evil with any particular group. The exception has to be criminals, of course. The word gets thrown around by everyone, which is good reason for a definition that is useable.

This string would suggest that perdition is the final end of the name throwing, but as you suggest, if you don't accept or believe in perdition, there is a difficulty in conversing.

Recently I heard a comment that the goal of religion is to change the focus of fear in people to a fear of God, hopefully freeing them from multiple sources of fear, the result being people being happier. I'm not sure that better access to health care will achieve that goal, especially if it does not achieve the desired success.

Donald

Donald,

Nope, I don't believe in perdition and I have NO use whatsoever for "fear of God." I have never heard one sensible explanation of "fear of God" yet, and that includes Jewish definitions. What I mean is that I've never heard a sensible explanation of why there is anything positive or desirable about it, or why it's anything but a morbid superstitious delusion.

But then I'm a pantheist, and only use the traditional theistic language for convenience. It gets tedious having to define what *I* mean by God every time I use the word, so I don't do it. But why should I fear the source of my own being? It doesn't look like we have anything to talk about here.

--Linda

Linda

In Jesus Christians pull together the concepts of "love of God" and "fear of God", and the main way I currently reconcile the two is in acknowledging the modern concept of marriage. One loves one's spouse and at the same time acknowledges the need at times for "hands off". Thus we get the comfort and growth of both partners from a good marriage.

The abuse of partners we see so often in the news illustrates steps on the
Road to Perdition, as marriages fail, people get killed, and addicts wind up in jail. One might call these "glimpses of perdition".

Donald

Here is another glimpse of perdition, from today's edition of
www.spaceweather.com .

The subject is a photo of Great Britain covered head to foot in snow in a space photo:

quote:

The cause of the phenomenon could be the Arctic Oscillation (AO). The AO is a seesawing strengthening and weakening of semi-permanent areas of low and high atmospheric pressure in the Arctic and the mid-latitudes. One consequence of the oscillation’s negative phase is cold, snowy weather in Eurasia and North America during the winter months. The extreme negative dip of the Arctic Oscillation Index in December 2009 was the lowest monthly value observed for the past six decades.

What is omitted from weather reports and the above is the high ash eruption from volcanoes currently in progress, although not yet the massive eruption of a Krakatoa. Volcanos in current or recent eruption north of Kilauea include Redoubt in Alaska, Iceland, the group of volcanoes on Kamchatka Peninsula east of Siberia, and island volcanoes off Japan. About the level of Kilauea in Hawaii are those in Mexico and Central America and the West Indies Island of Montserrat. For those interested in wading through scientific information (I use the date and the FL height for screening), check out
http://www.bom.gov.au/products/Volc_ash_recent.shtml
(Thanks to the Aussies for collating these reports.)

How does one throw a Stimulus at a volcano? I also don't recommend sticking around a volcano to see a pyroclastic flow. An example of the latter in the U.S. is the massive destruction of forest by such a flow from the eruption of Mt. St. Helens, which killed many.)

One cannot find a better physical model for perdition than an erupting volcano.
Sometimes they even erupt from the ocean bottom (seamount).

Donald

Donald,
     I understand perdition to mean a state of final spiritual ruin or, for the irreligious, one of utter destruction. Our world is sure to be destroyed eventually, by one cataclysm or another, but the chance that it will happen within any given million years is too slim to be of much concern. In contrast to that, the probability is high that some catastrophe like a lethal pandemic, a global famine or a really deadly war will change, suddenly, the tenor of our lives.
     Such an event would not put an end to our civilization—the information for rebuilding it is too widely spread for that—but it could reduce our population to a level the planet can support. For us, such great disaster could be a time of horror, but it would be essentially forgotten by the fifth generation down the road from us. That is why I think it is excessive to say perdition lies ahead.
Seán

Sean

Thanks for your thoughtful note, and I hope it is true.

I was thinking about the movie today, and that situation where the innocent son of a gangster witnessing a crime by his father does raise the vision of perdition for the father. Such may motivate a search for salvation.

The biblical vision in Revelation has two steps, a new Jerusalem, then both a new Earth and a new Heaven.

If the world becomes enveloped in a global volcanic ash cloud with severe global cooling, such as caused the extinction of many animal and fish species many years ago, imagine the state of the human species in a prolonged volcanic winter. What global warming there was, if augmented, could aggravate such a volcanic based scenario.

How mankind could survive, given the many lessons we are getting in terrorism, could be patterned on old tribal rivalries, once questions of food supply are settled. Such questions are already preceded by the viability of corporate greed stair-stepping grocery chains.

In the meantime I think the subject has merit, proceeds from a basis of gloom or glory.

Donald

Donald,
     We haven't had a real ice age for about 20,000 years, so a new one should occasion no surprise. We are a hardy breed and have solved the mysteries of fire. Those of us with access to coal are not apt to freeze and some of us, unfrozen, are sure to find something we can eat, even if it just a neighbor. At least we did the last time and I see no reason to suppose next time will be different.
     How many survivors do you think will be required to rebuild the human race when the world turns warm again?
Seán

Sean

If the end of the Neanderthals in the Ice Age and the survival of CroMagnan man is any indication, it will take some tribalization.

BTW here is a reference on glaciers in the Middle East:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/pp/p1386g/iran.pdf
It mentions glaciers in both Turkey and Iran. Both countries are mountainous and thus roughly fit the cube in Revelation as boundaries.

Another thought: every member of the human race is finite, and even Jesus by history had to rise again, but didn't stay on this Earth. The storied Second Coming may well have birthed the idea of a New Earth, even if built on the old one. Let us not forget that CroMagnon man came to Europe from Africa through the Middle East. I also wonder how long it will take for sand and dust to cover the Dead Sea once it dries up completely, along with the Jordan River.
OTOH all that is down the road a piece.

Donald

quote:

In Jesus Christians pull together the concepts of "love of God" and "fear of God", and the main way I currently reconcile the two is in acknowledging the modern concept of marriage. One loves one's spouse and at the same time acknowledges the need at times for "hands off". Thus we get the comfort and growth of both partners from a good marriage.

Donald,

You are actually making some marginal degree of sense for once. Of course you don't realize you're saying anything besides your usual gobbledegook, but that's beside the point. What I mean is that you actually said something I can relate to in my own frame of reference, even if it was purely by accident.

It has nothing to do with perdition in the sense that Sean defined it, that is to say as a "final spiritual ruin." But it does relate to my last blog post, which you may have read already and which is called Gevurah. It begins with a poem I wrote in 1984 with the same title. I can't believe I just linked to my blog on one of "your" topics, much less to a topic called "The Road to Perdition," but there it is.

The word gevurah has a basic meaning of strength or heroism, or at least that's the usual equivalent in modern Hebrew. But in kabbalistic terms it refers to the principle of strict justice, almost but not quite retributive justice. The sephirah or divine attribute called Gevurah is directly below Binah on the left-hand side of the Tree of Life, and gives its name to the entire left-hand pillar, usually called the Pillar of Severity. This is always contrasted with the opposite pillar, which takes its name from Chesed, directly below Chokmah on the right-hand side of the Tree. Chesed is usually translated "lovingkindness" in Jewish prayer books and refers to the opposite quality, i.e. expansiveness, mercy and of course forgiveness. The sephirah Chesed gives its name to the right-hand pillar, the Pillar of Mercy.

Interestingly, in Jewish mysticism the left-hand side of the Tree is seen as feminine and the right-hand side as masculine, the opposite of what you might expect. Because Kabbalah had such a far-reaching influence on all Western esotericism, you can see these two pillars physically represented in all Masonic lodges and spinoffs (the Rosicrucians, etc.) to this day. Often the left-hand pillar will be painted black while the right-hand pillar is white.

In a system like this where a human being is not seen as ultimately separate from God but as the microcosm (check out the Emerald Tablet again), these opposing qualities are not seen only as divine attributes. The very first kabbalistic principle I learned is also the most important and is stressed over and over again: the two qualities always have to be in balance, in every situation and in every possible context, balance is always the ideal because an excess of either quality leads to evil or enables evil. That very much includes an excess of chesed. There are--and there ought to be--limits to what you're willing to forgive.

In the context of personal relationships, and specifically the one I focused on in the poem, which did not lead to marriage: You can love, or continue to love, a person's essence while at the same time rejecting his intolerable behavior. I never should have tolerated his b.s. for as long as I did. Over and over again I erred on the side of Chesed or forgiveness--until the day that I didn't. The shift to Gevurah was abrupt and brutal, and nobody was more surprised by it than me. But that doesn't mean that anything "died," or that what I saw in him in the beginning wasn't very real. And not only real but lasting, because I still see it! The conventional wisdom about that famous state of temporary insanity known as first love is that what you think you see in the other person is an illusion, a projection. Eventually, you see through your own projections and go your way sadder but wiser.

Yeah, very often it's an illusion. Maybe even most of the time. But not always.

--Linda

Linda
Interesting note.
Today I took out my DVD of the movie, "Road to Perdition" and watched it all to see if I overstated its plot. In light of your note I can see the balance problem, but the movie ends sadly, with lots of killlings along the way. The movie does suggest that killers have some sort of chance at reprieve, but some characters say all in their profession will "not go to Heaven".

My presentation of "love" was in the marital context, hopefully past the "first love" situation, but I too recognize that sometimes it does last.

There were two special bronze pillars in the portico of the Solomonic Temple:

quote:

1Kings 7:15 He cast two bronze pillars, each eighteen cubits high and twelve cubits around, by line. 16 He also made two capitals of cast bronze to set on the tops of the pillars; each capital was five cubits high. 17 A network of interwoven chains festooned the capitals on top of the pillars, seven for each capital. 18 He made pomegranates in two rows encircling each network to decorate the capitals on top of the pillars. He did the same for each capital. 19 The capitals on top of the pillars in the portico were in the shape of lilies, four cubits high. 20 On the capitals of both pillars, above the bowl-shaped part next to the network, were the two hundred pomegranates in rows all around. 21 He erected the pillars at the portico of the temple. The pillar to the south he named Jakin and the one to the north Boaz. 22 The capitals on top were in the shape of lilies. And so the work on the pillars was completed.

Note the pomegranates.

Donald

Then there is

quote:

Judges 16:28-30 (New International Version)
28 Then Samson prayed to the LORD, "O Sovereign LORD, remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes." 29 Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, 30 Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived.

Amazing what they did with two central pillars. Are these related to those you describe?

Donald

quote:

I also wonder how long it will take for sand and dust to cover the Dead Sea once it dries up completely, along with the Jordan River. OTOH all that is down the road a piece.—EQ

Donald,
     The Sahara itself is only about 3 million years old, that is not long when measured on the geologic scale. Furthermore, diverse parts of it have greened and browned again at intervals approximating ten millenia. As of now, I understand, there is a greening trend.
     Of course the Dead Sea and its tributary, the Jordan River, will fill with dust one day and be utterly forgotten. But during the sequential million years they will reemerge as arrays of lakes and marshes in a jungle.
     We humans are ephemera who have difficulty understanding even events that transpire within brief centuries. That is unfortunate because our destiny is sure to reach beyond the range of time we can comprehend at present. It may well be that our next task is learning how our lifetimes can be extended so that we can do the work assigned to us by our own evolution.
     The new heaven and earth you mention will not be easily constructed.
Seán

Sean

The desert in question is the Arabian Desert with its subdivisions, such as the Syrian Desert.

The Dead Sea is dying because of a treaty between Israel and Jordan that diverts substantial waters to Jordan from the Sea of Galilee, and thus its death is manmade.

What happens to create the new heaven and new earth is speculative, but the next ice age will be survived by an appropriate place for survival, not the dank caves of the Neanderthal Man. Since the prophecy is for the destruction of Jerusalem, it may be that Earth and Sun may have a new relationship during the next Ice Age. Since the Bible does not mention a change in the Moon, some relationships may remain the same, but of course the Moon is being considered a base for a Mars exploration. Then, of course, there is the International Space Station (and all the space junk). Also, space stuff keeps flying by, and something is coming on 1/12 between the Moon and Earth, but no collision is expected with its near point of 130,000 km.

Don't neglect your reading on Malthus and his theory of population and dwindling food supply. An Ice Age would limit the American ability to supply many Third World countries.

Donald

quote:

My presentation of "love" was in the marital context, hopefully past the "first love" situation, but I too recognize that sometimes it does last.

Donald,

By "lasting" I don't mean it was continuous. That would not have been appropriate or even possible in this relationship, seeing as I was married to someone else for 25 years. I mean it had the potential for being reactivated or reawakened, because that is in fact what happened.

It was probably a dumb idea to post about it on this topic at all, though. What made me connect it with your post was what you said about periods of "hands off." That made me remember our first period of separation, which I initiated and which lasted slightly over a year. That period and the reasons for it have been very much on my mind lately, and are directly related to my blog post.

So I posted about it because I've been thinking about it, and this topic is just where I happened to be when I was started thinking about it--again! Also, you gave me an opening to talk more extensively about Chesed and Gevurah, a subjecr that is always important to me and always relevant to everything. I really don't expect you to understand about unconventional relationships though. As long as Jonathan Omer-Man understands (and he does) it doesn't much matter what you think.

And YES, the two pillars called Jachin and Boaz in Solomon's temple are directly related to the pillars in Masonic temples, which are called by the same names.

--Linda

quote:

The desert in question is the Arabian Desert with its subdivisions, such as the Syrian Desert.—EQ

Donald,
     True! I apologize for being careless. Notwithstanding that egregious error, I think my point is worth considering:
     When first the word about a new heaven and earth was heard, the hearers believed the earth to be a main feature of creation with Heaven something like a crystal globe, on which the stars were fastened. It would have been a lot of work to reconstruct that system, but it was, at least, conceivable.
     But in these latter days we know our Earth is but a mote, located somewhere in the cosmos (a new name for Heaven) that extends outward in all directions without limit. So insignificant it is that, if Earth were ever lost, it would be impossible to find. With that in mind, I find it difficult to react strongly to threatened ice ages, plagues, wars, famines or drying puddles in the desert. What seems to me to be important is for mankind to grow immeasurably in wisdom so life will have a future. I sense we are required to make a conscious effort.
Seán

quote:

Notwithstanding that egregious error, I think my point is worth considering:

Typing "Tom Hands" is an egregious error. You don't make egregious errors, Sean. At least none that I know of.

Holy Bhagworm

quote:

You don't make egregious errors, Sean.—Holy Bhagworm

H.B.,
     You are too kind. I think assigning a desert to the wrong continent demonstrates a degree of egregiosity comparable to misplacing one's umbilicus.
Seán