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Never goes away...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Thanks. It will be a while, but at the end of the trip I end up in Edinburgh!


Long time since I have been there.

Any chance of you getting to Orkney? I'd love to visit that newly found temple and see what progress they are making

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-sco...ey-shetland-38738074


Not likely although it does look interesting. We only have a couple of days in Edinburgh and the flight from London is getting just weird to plan!
 
Posts: 10234 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Not likely although it does look interesting. We only have a couple of days in Edinburgh and the flight from London is getting just weird to plan!


Well remember one area in Edinburgh, but I doubt it will be there now.

I lived in a tenement, but nothing like the black slums of Glasgow.

This part of Edinburgh left a picture in my mind which I always think of as a slum.

For some reason I keep thinking Royal Mile. My memory tells me we were walking towards water, maybe the coast?

Another image: coming back from a visit to friends in Glasgow, I was driving in rain to my hotel when, for some reason, I took a good look out the back.

Most, if not all, the old slums had been demolished by now, but here it was; standing alone on a bare hill, gleaming in the rain on a very dark night, one solitary, isolated, tenement, just a stark black rock.

In our ASC we know that was the building, home for countless slum dwellers over many a long miserable year, making a personal, spiritual, effort to ensure it would be remembered long after it was gone.

Our grateful thinks for bring back those images, Reed.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2901 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Never goes away...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Not likely although it does look interesting. We only have a couple of days in Edinburgh and the flight from London is getting just weird to plan!


Well remember one area in Edinburgh, but I doubt it will be there now.

I lived in a tenement, but nothing like the black slums of Glasgow.

This part of Edinburgh left a picture in my mind which I always think of as a slum.

For some reason I keep thinking Royal Mile. My memory tells me we were walking towards water, maybe the coast?

Another image: coming back from a visit to friends in Glasgow, I was driving in rain to my hotel when, for some reason, I took a good look out the back.

Most, if not all, the old slums had been demolished by now, but here it was; standing alone on a bare hill, gleaming in the rain on a very dark night, one solitary, isolated, tenement, just a stark black rock.

In our ASC we know that was the building, home for countless slum dwellers over many a long miserable year, making a personal, spiritual, effort to ensure it would be remembered long after it was gone.

Our grateful thinks for bring back those images, Reed.


The Royal Mile is certainly still there! Although I’ve only seen a map, I suspect you may be talking about an area that has a lot of alleys and pubs. From what I understand the area is quite compact. One of the hotels I was looking at had 27 steps tp get to the hotel desk. Old waverly is exempt from accessibility rules. It has a lift after that though. It sounded really interesting although my thoughts went to NYC where quaint moves to rundown, dank, and dreary very easily.

It’s a long trip, but we’d be delighted if you wanted to be our local guide as you explored you own homelands. We’ll be in London for a couple of days first! And yes, I’m looking at a pub crawl tour one evening.

Ian glad you have fond memories though. I’ll try to capture some pictures if I find my camera again. It’s such a pain at time.
 
Posts: 10234 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Never goes away...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Not likely although it does look interesting. We only have a couple of days in Edinburgh and the flight from London is getting just weird to plan!


Well remember one area in Edinburgh, but I doubt it will be there now.

I lived in a tenement, but nothing like the black slums of Glasgow.

This part of Edinburgh left a picture in my mind which I always think of as a slum.

For some reason I keep thinking Royal Mile. My memory tells me we were walking towards water, maybe the coast?

Another image: coming back from a visit to friends in Glasgow, I was driving in rain to my hotel when, for some reason, I took a good look out the back.

Most, if not all, the old slums had been demolished by now, but here it was; standing alone on a bare hill, gleaming in the rain on a very dark night, one solitary, isolated, tenement, just a stark black rock.

In our ASC we know that was the building, home for countless slum dwellers over many a long miserable year, making a personal, spiritual, effort to ensure it would be remembered long after it was gone.

Our grateful thinks for bring back those images, Reed.


The Royal Mile is certainly still there! Although I’ve only seen a map, I suspect you may be talking about an area that has a lot of alleys and pubs. From what I understand the area is quite compact. One of the hotels I was looking at had 27 steps tp get to the hotel desk. Old waverly is exempt from accessibility rules. It has a lift after that though. It sounded really interesting although my thoughts went to NYC where quaint moves to rundown, dank, and dreary very easily.

It’s a long trip, but we’d be delighted if you wanted to be our local guide as you explored you own homelands. We’ll be in London for a couple of days first! And yes, I’m looking at a pub crawl tour one evening.

Ian glad you have fond memories though. I’ll try to capture some pictures if I find my camera again. It’s such a pain at time.


Not that it has to make sense but if you left at 8, how were you driving?
 
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If I had a son I'd not be more proud of him that I am of this little boy:
Boy Stops Traffic


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6465 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
If I had a son I'd not be more proud of him that I am of this little boy:
Boy Stops Traffic


Agreed.

Maybe we blokes are starting to regret turning from a matriarchy to a patriarchy?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2901 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
Picture of That JR Thang
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
If I had a son I'd not be more proud of him that I am of this little boy:
Boy Stops Traffic


Agreed.

Maybe we blokes are starting to regret turning from a matriarchy to a patriarchy?

You lazy bums just need to man up and carry your fair share of the load rather than trying to find ways for the fairer sex to take over and carry it for you Nee-NER!   :neener:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6465 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You lazy bums just need to man up and carry your fair share of the load rather than trying to find ways for the fairer sex to take over and carry it for you Nee-NER!   :neener:


Ca canny, m'dear. You sure you know what you are letting yourself in for?

Nothing I'd have liked better than being a house husband. Look how much time I could have had on the Internet, how much I could have expanded my knowledge.

Did you go to this site? Some of what is said is exactly in line with my thoughts; have never seen anything like it before. It will keep you quiet for an hour or two Argue   :argue:
http://metrogael.blogspot.com/...ate-cultures-of.html

I'm going to have to read it a couple of times to make sure I've got it right. Have tried to post a response, but had no idea what I was doing.

The blogger needs a proof-reader; not just typos, I'm seeing some confusion in what he says.

This is what I tried to post:

“As some critic once put it, every mythology is someone else’s religion.”

Joseph Campbell?

I’ve been looking for something like this for a long time. Just read it once so far, so may not have got it right yet. Would like nothing better than to sit down with you discussing this over a pint or three of Guinness.

Not sure if I am simply rephrasing what you say, or putting a different emphasis on it; however I wonder if the hard core of this school of mythology originated with the proto-Indo-Europeans, not the Indians? As you note, like many immigrants Indo-Europeans incorporated and subsumed previous cults, making them part of their own. Which would have dominated once the Aryans came to power?

I know there are Indian scholars who are not comfortable with this concept. However, when we compare the steppes Indo-Europeans who became the Persians and those who created the Vedas, do we not have the same people, the same culture? The Siberian shamans tell us entheogenic mushrooms do grow on the steppes as, indeed, they are symbionts of the Druids’ oak and many other sacred Celtic trees.

How much do we know about those steppes people before they moved into India, Persia, and the Black Sea? We do have the hypothesis that the inundation of the Black Sea was the origin of the Noah’s Flood legend.

“They are also associated with lightening(sic) and power and come in the form of ‘good’ serpents helping Indra to slay the dragon Vrtra.”

Could this explain a different culture’s need for the Serpent to be the villain who convinces (Mother Goddess) Eve to eat Soma, Amanita muscaria, the symbiotic “fruit” of the Tree of knowledge?

Why do Zeus (Prometheus) and Adonai (Adam and Eve) have this great need to deny us knowledge? What do they fear?

If “this is the case, could it also account for the ideologies of the civilizations of Mohejo-Daro and Harappa? Could this have been the dragon that Indra slayed, Vrtra the son of Danu, the primordial earth goddess?”

Any connection with Marduk’s slaying of the Dragon Lady Tiamat?

“In Paleolithic times when reproduction was understood as an act of magic, part of a woman’s body were(sic) given macrocosmic significance.”

Should have warned you I am a retired proof-reader ;-)

You are the first I have seen to raise this. IMO patriarchy came on the scene when we blokes first woke up to the fact we play a vital part in this creation.

“rapacity has replaced sagacity”

Love it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2901 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Youse mob gone to sleep or what?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2901 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
Picture of That JR Thang
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Youse mob gone to sleep or what?

I'm headed for bed NOW because if I don't I'll be up all night again. And I just have gotten myself back on to something closely resembling a "normal" schedule.

So just find yourself a pint of patience and I'll get to your above post sometime tomorrow evening.

Good night Dahlin' and God bless.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6465 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Never goes away...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You lazy bums just need to man up and carry your fair share of the load rather than trying to find ways for the fairer sex to take over and carry it for you Nee-NER!   :neener:


Ca canny, m'dear. You sure you know what you are letting yourself in for?

Nothing I'd have liked better than being a house husband. Look how much time I could have had on the Internet, how much I could have expanded my knowledge.

Did you go to this site? Some of what is said is exactly in line with my thoughts; have never seen anything like it before. It will keep you quiet for an hour or two Argue   :argue:
http://metrogael.blogspot.com/...ate-cultures-of.html

I'm going to have to read it a couple of times to make sure I've got it right. Have tried to post a response, but had no idea what I was doing.

The blogger needs a proof-reader; not just typos, I'm seeing some confusion in what he says.

This is what I tried to post:

“As some critic once put it, every mythology is someone else’s religion.”

Joseph Campbell?

I’ve been looking for something like this for a long time. Just read it once so far, so may not have got it right yet. Would like nothing better than to sit down with you discussing this over a pint or three of Guinness.

Not sure if I am simply rephrasing what you say, or putting a different emphasis on it; however I wonder if the hard core of this school of mythology originated with the proto-Indo-Europeans, not the Indians? As you note, like many immigrants Indo-Europeans incorporated and subsumed previous cults, making them part of their own. Which would have dominated once the Aryans came to power?

I know there are Indian scholars who are not comfortable with this concept. However, when we compare the steppes Indo-Europeans who became the Persians and those who created the Vedas, do we not have the same people, the same culture? The Siberian shamans tell us entheogenic mushrooms do grow on the steppes as, indeed, they are symbionts of the Druids’ oak and many other sacred Celtic trees.

How much do we know about those steppes people before they moved into India, Persia, and the Black Sea? We do have the hypothesis that the inundation of the Black Sea was the origin of the Noah’s Flood legend.

“They are also associated with lightening(sic) and power and come in the form of ‘good’ serpents helping Indra to slay the dragon Vrtra.”

Could this explain a different culture’s need for the Serpent to be the villain who convinces (Mother Goddess) Eve to eat Soma, Amanita muscaria, the symbiotic “fruit” of the Tree of knowledge?

Why do Zeus (Prometheus) and Adonai (Adam and Eve) have this great need to deny us knowledge? What do they fear?

If “this is the case, could it also account for the ideologies of the civilizations of Mohejo-Daro and Harappa? Could this have been the dragon that Indra slayed, Vrtra the son of Danu, the primordial earth goddess?”

Any connection with Marduk’s slaying of the Dragon Lady Tiamat?

“In Paleolithic times when reproduction was understood as an act of magic, part of a woman’s body were(sic) given macrocosmic significance.”

Should have warned you I am a retired proof-reader ;-)

You are the first I have seen to raise this. IMO patriarchy came on the scene when we blokes first woke up to the fact we play a vital part in this creation.

“rapacity has replaced sagacity”

Love it.


About all I can handle tonight would be the Guinness, but I did want to fuss a bit about you being a house husband being the results of carrying out your responsibilities in a family that is matriarchal. Our Native American didn’t find that to be true, nor do most working couples. Our, USA, companies still have trouble with men needing time off to pick up a sick child at school. The first response was can’t your wife do that! Several fathers were able to basically cut them off at the knees rather than explain why “the female” couldn’t do the task.
 
Posts: 10234 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Good night Dahlin' and God bless.


May your DMT kick in as you sleep.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2901 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Here to stay...
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Not sure if I am simply rephrasing what you say, or putting a different emphasis on it; however I wonder if the hard core of this school of mythology originated with the proto-Indo-Europeans, not the Indians? As you note, like many immigrants Indo-Europeans incorporated and subsumed previous cults, making them part of their own. Which would have dominated once the Aryans came to power?

I know there are Indian scholars who are not comfortable with this concept. However, when we compare the steppes Indo-Europeans who became the Persians and those who created the Vedas, do we not have the same people, the same culture? The Siberian shamans tell us entheogenic mushrooms do grow on the steppes as, indeed, they are symbionts of the Druids’ oak and many other sacred Celtic trees.

How much do we know about those steppes people before they moved into India, Persia, and the Black Sea? We do have the hypothesis that the inundation of the Black Sea was the origin of the Noah’s Flood legend.

“They are also associated with lightening(sic) and power and come in the form of ‘good’ serpents helping Indra to slay the dragon Vrtra.”

Could this explain a different culture’s need for the Serpent to be the villain who convinces (Mother Goddess) Eve to eat Soma, Amanita muscaria, the symbiotic “fruit” of the Tree of knowledge?

Why do Zeus (Prometheus) and Adonai (Adam and Eve) have this great need to deny us knowledge? What do they fear?

If “this is the case, could it also account for the ideologies of the civilizations of Mohejo-Daro and Harappa? Could this have been the dragon that Indra slayed, Vrtra the son of Danu, the primordial earth goddess?”

Any connection with Marduk’s slaying of the Dragon Lady Tiamat?


No problem with a Steppes origin even as far back as Akkad. However I tend to have a different view of the serpent/dragon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...%28rainbow-dragon%29

quote:
Hong or jiang (Chinese: 虹; pinyin: hóng or jiàng; Wade–Giles: hung or chiang; literally: "rainbow") is a two-headed dragon in Chinese mythology, comparable with rainbow serpent legends in diverse cultures and mythologies...

However, the oldest characters for "rainbow" in Shang dynasty oracle bone script were pictographs of an arched dragon or serpent with open-mouthed heads at both ends...

"Although many ancient cultures believed rainbows were good omens," Carr (1990:101) explains, "the Chinese saw them as meteorological disasters. Unlike the auspicious [long] 龍 dragon symbolizing forthcoming rain, the two-headed [hong] 虹 was inauspicious because it appeared after a rain shower." The Huainanzi (3, Schindler 1923:322) says both rainbows and comets were warnings from tian "heaven; god". Several classic texts (e.g., Liu Xiang's Shuoyuan and Xinxu) use the phrase baihong guan ri 白虹貫日 "bright rainbow threads the sun". For example, it is a portent of assassination in the Zhanguoce (297, tr. Crump 1979:454) "a white halo pierced the sun."


The pictograph tends to remind me of squatting man plasma effects that I tend to associated with comet fragment discharges:

http://www.theplasmaverse.com/...ges-petroglyphs.html
 
Posts: 1050 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
No problem with a Steppes origin even as far back as Akkad. However I tend to have a different view of the serpent/dragon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...%28rainbow-dragon%29

quote:
Hong or jiang (Chinese: 虹; pinyin: hóng or jiàng; Wade–Giles: hung or chiang; literally: "rainbow") is a two-headed dragon in Chinese mythology, comparable with rainbow serpent legends in diverse cultures and mythologies...

However, the oldest characters for "rainbow" in Shang dynasty oracle bone script were pictographs of an arched dragon or serpent with open-mouthed heads at both ends...

"Although many ancient cultures believed rainbows were good omens," Carr (1990:101) explains, "the Chinese saw them as meteorological disasters. Unlike the auspicious [long] 龍 dragon symbolizing forthcoming rain, the two-headed [hong] 虹 was inauspicious because it appeared after a rain shower." The Huainanzi (3, Schindler 1923:322) says both rainbows and comets were warnings from tian "heaven; god". Several classic texts (e.g., Liu Xiang's Shuoyuan and Xinxu) use the phrase baihong guan ri 白虹貫日 "bright rainbow threads the sun". For example, it is a portent of assassination in the Zhanguoce (297, tr. Crump 1979:454) "a white halo pierced the sun."


The pictograph tends to remind me of squatting man plasma effects that I tend to associated with comet fragment discharges:

http://www.theplasmaverse.com/...ges-petroglyphs.html


Will read your sites after I've had a break. Got the dreaded man flu.

Have a real issue with the dragon image in mythology. So far as I can tell the first such dragons were wingless snakes with legs. Maybe that was where the legged Hebrew Serpent in Eden originated? Certainly our first European dragons were wingless.

This wiki site attests to my hypothesis that first we feared snakes, then we attached all sorts of metaphors to snakes, then we re-imagined snakes with legs to chase us faster, then added wings at a later date.

Once we had that symbol we could do all sorts of things with it, including Puff the Magic Dragon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon
Dragon-like creatures appear in virtually all cultures around the globe.[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon Nonetheless, scholars dispute where the idea of a dragon originates from[5] and a wide variety of theories have been proposed.[5] In his book An Instinct for Dragons (2000), anthropologist David E. Jones suggests a hypothesis that humans, just like monkeys, have inherited instinctive reactions to snakes, large cats, and birds of prey.[6] He cites a study which found that approximately 390 people in a thousand are afraid of snakes[7] and notes that fear of snakes is especially prominent in children, even in areas where snakes are rare.[7] The earliest attested dragons all resemble snakes or bear snakelike attributes.[8] Jones therefore concludes that the reason why dragons appear in nearly all cultures is because of humans' innate fear of snakes and other animals that were major predators of humans' primate ancestors.[9] Dragons are usually said to reside in "dank caves, deep pools, wild mountain reaches, sea bottoms, haunted forests", all places which would have been fraught with danger for early human ancestors.[10]
In her book The First Fossil Hunters: Dinosaurs, Mammoths, and Myth in Greek and Roman Times (2000), Adrienne Mayor argues that some stories of dragons may have been inspired by ancient discoveries of fossils belonging to dinosaurs and other prehistoric animals.[11] She argues that the dragon lore of northern India may have been inspired by "observations of oversized, extraordinary bones in the fossilbeds of the Siwalik Hills below the Himalayas"[12] and that ancient Greek artistic depictions of the Monster of Troy may have been influenced by fossils of Samotherium, an extinct species of giraffe whose fossils are common in the Mediterranean region.[12] In China, a region where fossils of large prehistoric animals are common, these remains are frequently identified as "dragon bones"[13] and are commonly used in Chinese traditional medicine.[13] Mayor, however, is careful to point out that not all stories of dragons and giants are inspired by fossils[13] and notes that Scandinavia has many stories of dragons and sea monsters, but has long "been considered barren of large fossils."[13] In one of her later books, she states that "Many dragon images around the world were based on folk knowledge or exaggerations of living reptiles, such as Komodo dragons, Gila monsters, iguanas, alligators, or, in California, alligator lizards."[14]


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2901 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
Picture of That JR Thang
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
You lazy bums just need to man up and carry your fair share of the load rather than trying to find ways for the fairer sex to take over and carry it for you Nee-NER!   :neener:


Ca canny, m'dear. You sure you know what you are letting yourself in for?

Nothing I'd have liked better than being a house husband. Look how much time I could have had on the Internet, how much I could have expanded my knowledge.

Ah yeah, the "total reversal" bs number.

With the snap of the finger, the house will clean and care for itself, groceries will by magic clutter the fridge and pantry, laundry will certainly cycle and iron itself, meals will plan, cook and serve themselves. Oh, and the stick-'em-and-lick-'em kids will just naturally turn into postage stamps of papa. All papa will have to do is learn all that stuff he will never be able to use because he's a house hubby.

Got it.

quote:
Did you go to this site? Some of what is said is exactly in line with my thoughts; have never seen anything like it before. It will keep you quiet for an hour or two Argue   :argue:
http://metrogael.blogspot.com/...ate-cultures-of.html

I'm going to have to read it a couple of times to make sure I've got it right. Have tried to post a response, but had no idea what I was doing.

The blogger needs a proof-reader; not just typos, I'm seeing some confusion in what he says.

This is what I tried to post:

“As some critic once put it, every mythology is someone else’s religion.”

Joseph Campbell?

I’ve been looking for something like this for a long time. Just read it once so far, so may not have got it right yet. Would like nothing better than to sit down with you discussing this over a pint or three of Guinness.

I do recognize some of your bias in there Wink   ;) But I'm just not into it right now...cannot seem to keep it in focus. Doesn't seem well written.

But dahlin', after three Guinness, you'd be talking to yourself cuz I'd be blowing little zzzzz's.

However, the "tree" and "long arm of God" stuff just keeps popping up, huh. Tellin' ya, it all came via visions. Way, way, back when. Ergo shared concepts and root words.

It was the Jews, not the Israelites, who tossed the "Tree Of Knowledge" in favor of "The Law." 'Twas a total break from "revealed knowledge," and to make sure it stuck, they placed it in the mouth of Moses; which I've always found rather odd since "moses" is not a Hebrew word, but rather a Egyptian one...

quote:
Not sure if I am simply rephrasing what you say, or putting a different emphasis on it; however I wonder if the hard core of this school of mythology originated with the proto-Indo-Europeans, not the Indians? As you note, like many immigrants Indo-Europeans incorporated and subsumed previous cults, making them part of their own. Which would have dominated once the Aryans came to power?

I know there are Indian scholars who are not comfortable with this concept. However, when we compare the steppes Indo-Europeans who became the Persians and those who created the Vedas, do we not have the same people, the same culture? The Siberian shamans tell us entheogenic mushrooms do grow on the steppes as, indeed, they are symbionts of the Druids’ oak and many other sacred Celtic trees.

How much do we know about those steppes people before they moved into India, Persia, and the Black Sea? We do have the hypothesis that the inundation of the Black Sea was the origin of the Noah’s Flood legend.

“They are also associated with lightening(sic) and power and come in the form of ‘good’ serpents helping Indra to slay the dragon Vrtra.”

Could this explain a different culture’s need for the Serpent to be the villain who convinces (Mother Goddess) Eve to eat Soma, Amanita muscaria, the symbiotic “fruit” of the Tree of knowledge?

Why do Zeus (Prometheus) and Adonai (Adam and Eve) have this great need to deny us knowledge? What do they fear?

If “this is the case, could it also account for the ideologies of the civilizations of Mohejo-Daro and Harappa? Could this have been the dragon that Indra slayed, Vrtra the son of Danu, the primordial earth goddess?”

Any connection with Marduk’s slaying of the Dragon Lady Tiamat?

“In Paleolithic times when reproduction was understood as an act of magic, part of a woman’s body were(sic) given macrocosmic significance.”

Should have warned you I am a retired proof-reader ;-)

You are the first I have seen to raise this. IMO patriarchy came on the scene when we blokes first woke up to the fact we play a vital part in this creation.

“rapacity has replaced sagacity”

Love it.

Now you are getting a bit over my head - outside my reading zone. And I'm a wee bit tired. A long and hard day that took a toll on my back. So I'll come back to this when I'm well rested.

But...I'm more than a little interested in the serpent symbol. It was the symbol Moses had the Israelites lift on a stake in the wilderness. It was supposedly later found among the people and destroyed (during Josiah's reign?). There is a reference to this "serpent" in the NT where Jesus says "If I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto myself." Barker had something to say about it, but I'm not recalling her point at the moment.

And now I have got to lie prone for a while or my back will never forgive me. Think I'll re-read some The Pagan Christ...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6465 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:]
Ah yeah, the "total reversal" bs number.

With the snap of the finger, the house will clean and care for itself, groceries will by magic clutter the fridge and pantry, laundry will certainly cycle and iron itself, meals will plan, cook and serve themselves. Oh, and the stick-'em-and-lick-'em kids will just naturally turn into postage stamps of papa. All papa will have to do is learn all that stuff he will never be able to use because he's a house hubby.

Got it.


You're right.

I was indeed meant for better things.

Just as well I stayed where I could achieve something of positive value for my community.

quote:
But...I'm more than a little interested in the serpent symbol. It was the symbol Moses had the Israelites lift on a stake in the wilderness. It was supposedly later found among the people and destroyed (during Josiah's reign?). There is a reference to this "serpent" in the NT where Jesus says "If I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto myself." Barker had something to say about it, but I'm not recalling her point at the moment.


This is yet another example of Churchianity which really bugs me.

Ever seen a painting of Adam, Eve, and a legged serpent?

Ever seen a Christian source saying that Serpent actually was a Dragon? At least that explains how it lost its legs, an otherwise ridiculous notion.

quote:
And now I have got to lie prone for a while or my back will never forgive me. Think I'll re-read some The Pagan Christ...


We're a right pair of old crocks, aren't we; you with your back, me with my man flu (and an overdue visit to my chiropractor to fix my own neck and back).

Just finished re-reading Harpur. My sole issue is he stayed as a Christian instead of moving on to the higher realm.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2901 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Never goes away...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:]
Ah yeah, the "total reversal" bs number.

With the snap of the finger, the house will clean and care for itself, groceries will by magic clutter the fridge and pantry, laundry will certainly cycle and iron itself, meals will plan, cook and serve themselves. Oh, and the stick-'em-and-lick-'em kids will just naturally turn into postage stamps of papa. All papa will have to do is learn all that stuff he will never be able to use because he's a house hubby.

Got it.


You're right.

I was indeed meant for better things.

Just as well I stayed where I could achieve something of positive value for my community.

quote:
But...I'm more than a little interested in the serpent symbol. It was the symbol Moses had the Israelites lift on a stake in the wilderness. It was supposedly later found among the people and destroyed (during Josiah's reign?). There is a reference to this "serpent" in the NT where Jesus says "If I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto myself." Barker had something to say about it, but I'm not recalling her point at the moment.


This is yet another example of Churchianity which really bugs me.

Ever seen a painting of Adam, Eve, and a legged serpent?

Ever seen a Christian source saying that Serpent actually was a Dragon? At least that explains how it lost its legs, an otherwise ridiculous notion.

quote:
And now I have got to lie prone for a while or my back will never forgive me. Think I'll re-read some The Pagan Christ...


We're a right pair of old crocks, aren't we; you with your back, me with my man flu (and an overdue visit to my chiropractor to fix my own neck and back).

Just finished re-reading Harpur. My sole issue is he stayed as a Christian instead of moving on to the higher realm.


Many of Bart Ehrham's peers, that agree with him, stayed too. It isn't clear whether they stayed to help others, but my theory is that they no longer carry the baggage and have found a deeper meaning like JR has been trying to explain to you!

As for snakes with feet, I thought that was explained in the text: that he had to now crawl on his belly. (ducks out quickly)
 
Posts: 10234 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
As for snakes with feet, I thought that was explained in the text: that he had to now crawl on his belly. (ducks out quickly)


Oh no you don't.

I'm talking about before Eve accepts that Dragon's offer on knowledge.

Still waiting for someone, anyone, to tell me just why God was so frightened of an educated Adam that he kicked him out of that garden, then confounded our language so we could not achieve our full potential.

BTW none of the Abrahamic religions can take us further to the Brahman concept.

What rabbi, pope, or ayatollah would ever want to give up his power?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2901 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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CB here. May I invite you all to read this and share your thoughts. The author's life is completely different from mine, however her final reasoning is very much in line:


https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/...hurch_b_4816252.html


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2901 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
Picture of That JR Thang
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
You're right.

I was indeed meant for better things.

Just as well I stayed where I could achieve something of positive value for my community.

Shared responsibility is the key. It is the one which allow both to have it all.

quote:
JR: But...I'm more than a little interested in the serpent symbol. It was the symbol Moses had the Israelites lift on a stake in the wilderness. It was supposedly later found among the people and destroyed (during Josiah's reign?). There is a reference to this "serpent" in the NT where Jesus says "If I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto myself." Barker had something to say about it, but I'm not recalling her point at the moment.

Allan: This is yet another example of Churchianity which really bugs me.

Ever seen a painting of Adam, Eve, and a legged serpent?

Ever seen a Christian source saying that Serpent actually was a Dragon? At least that explains how it lost its legs, an otherwise ridiculous notion.

Yeah, I've seen it. But they may have missed the mark, imho. There is a serpent in the constellation Ophiuchus and The Year of the Snake in the Chinese Zodiac. But there is also a "Woman and Dragon" in Revelation. Just haven't managed to dig deep enough to figure it all out yet.[/QUOTE]

quote:
Allan: We're a right pair of old crocks, aren't we; you with your back, me with my man flu (and an overdue visit to my chiropractor to fix my own neck and back).

I'm finding this getting old stuff to be very tiresome! There is still so much I want to get accomplished but finding that difficult when it takes bloody forever to just get started and a whole lot longer to recover!

quote:
Allan: Just finished re-reading Harpur. My sole issue is he stayed as a Christian instead of moving on to the higher realm.

Christianity IS the higher realm and a far cry from that churcianity stuff. Why would he move on from it when he found what takes one on to the Spiritual Realm - The Cosmic Christ? Maybe you aren't really understanding either one of us?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6465 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
Picture of That JR Thang
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
As for snakes with feet, I thought that was explained in the text: that he had to now crawl on his belly. (ducks out quickly)

Oh no you don't.

I'm talking about before Eve accepts that Dragon's offer on knowledge.

Still waiting for someone, anyone, to tell me just why God was so frightened of an educated Adam that he kicked him out of that garden, then confounded our language so we could not achieve our full potential.

Thought we had already covered that...It wasn't God who demanded no knowledge from the tree, it was the priests during Josiah's reign. It was they who declared "It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"" for they had "the Law of God" which they had put in Moses mouth.

quote:
Allan: BTW none of the Abrahamic religions can take us further to the Brahman concept.

What rabbi, pope, or ayatollah would ever want to give up his power?

I think it's about time for you to realize you aren't talking to a churchianity posse here. We are talking Cosmic Spirituality and Cosmic Christ, not doctrines, dogmas, creeds, and theologies. We've moved far beyond that.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6465 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
Picture of That JR Thang
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
CB here. May I invite you all to read this and share your thoughts. The author's life is completely different from mine, however her final reasoning is very much in line:

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/...hurch_b_4816252.html

The way I see it, she gave up churchianity - but she still has the Spirit of Christ. She's in a good place.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6465 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Allan
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Shared responsibility is the key. It is the one which allow both to have it all.


Ah, now we're starting to get fair dinkum.

quote:
JR: But...I'm more than a little interested in the serpent symbol. It was the symbol Moses had the Israelites lift on a stake in the wilderness. It was supposedly later found among the people and destroyed (during Josiah's reign?). There is a reference to this "serpent" in the NT where Jesus says "If I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto myself." Barker had something to say about it, but I'm not recalling her point at the moment.


While we agree in big part, ICB is becoming increasingly convinced we need to go back to the very first beginning then work our way forwards, keeping track of how the original mythological symbols/metaphors change to meet the needs of changing environments. This is one major area we agree with Harpur.

Ever seen a painting of Adam, Eve, and a [i]legged serpent?[/I]

quote:

Yeah, I've seen it.


Do tell.

quote:
But they may have missed the mark, imho. There is a serpent in the constellation Ophiuchus and The Year of the Snake in the Chinese Zodiac. Just haven't managed to dig deep enough to figure it all out yet.


That, for me, sums it up. There is just far too much information, much of it contradictory, for any one person to sort it out. Where are all those IT nerds when we need'm?

quote:
I'm finding this getting old stuff to be very tiresome! There is still so much I want to get accomplished but finding that difficult when it takes bloody forever to just get started and a whole lot longer to recover!


I'm spewing at the moment. Told my GP last week that, for the first time in decades, I'd actually experienced the way I was before my breakdown some 20 years ago. Then I get this bloody man flu.

quote:

Christianity IS the higher realm and a far cry from that churchianity stuff. Why would he move on from it when he found what takes one on to the Spiritual Realm - The Cosmic Christ? Maybe you aren't really understanding either one of us?


I'd understand better if you all told me you accept that Jesus is just one of a long line of such mythological Saviours. For me, one culture set us off on the wrong track, then, as we all agree, Churchianity took over and we lost everything.

It's a cultural ego trip. We Christianised Westerners can't allow ourselves to accept that, whatever their faults, Hinduism and Buddhism are a better base to start off from. You can have no idea how many respected authors have said exactly that. We refuse to accept just how much those Eastern philosophies have to offer.

Why not dump both culture bases and start afresh, taking from both everything we need?

Interestingly, from a very small base, both of those are among the fastest-growing spiritual numbers here in Australia.

One thing about Aussies; most are pragmatically sceptical, and have no love for tall poppies.

That site I posted, the women telling why she left Christianity, pretty well sums up our thinking. To paraphrase, she tells of major disasters, untold lives lost, the survivors thanking God for saving them. How easily they forget all those who died. Had to agree with her when she spuked over one church raising $40,000 to upgrade their perfectly usable car park after she had returned from Ghana where there was no healthy water to drink.

That post about the preacher who turned up at his church as a mendicant who was refused help by all the church members was the icing on the cake.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2901 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Never goes away...
Picture of Reed N D Dark
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
As for snakes with feet, I thought that was explained in the text: that he had to now crawl on his belly. (ducks out quickly)


Oh no you don't.

I'm talking about before Eve accepts that Dragon's offer on knowledge.

Still waiting for someone, anyone, to tell me just why God was so frightened of an educated Adam that he kicked him out of that garden, then confounded our language so we could not achieve our full potential.

BTW none of the Abrahamic religions can take us further to the Brahman concept.

What rabbi, pope, or ayatollah would ever want to give up his power?


And I won’t allow you to just claim knowledge. All they gained was the knowledge of good and evil which creates a whole different kind of set of issues you’ve seen me ask about! Certainly be kicked out without previous knowledge of g&e should come to mind.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Thought we had already covered that...It wasn't God who demanded no knowledge from the tree, it was the priests during Josiah's reign. It was they who declared "It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"" for they had "the Law of God" which they had put in Moses mouth.
...I think it's about time for you to realize you aren't talking to a churchianity posse here.
We are talking Cosmic Spirituality and Cosmic Christ, not doctrines, dogmas, creeds, and theologies. We've moved far beyond that.


This is where, yet again, this word-smith, former successful reporter, sub-editor, editor, is not expressing himself clearly. Bang Head   :banghead:

(That emoji expresses my frustration with my self, my own inability to use my words with any effect, get my thoughts across. Hard to take.)

Given how much of the Bible, Tanakh and NT, has been re-written to suit the needs of the later rabbis and priests, how much of it can we take as honest, genuine?

Why not mine it for its real value, comparing the Bible's original, real, spiritual intent with the equally real spiritual intent of the Vedas, the Upanishads?

Christians and Jews say: “All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.” The Mosaic law contains a parallel commandment: “Whatever is hurtful to you, do not do to any other person.”

Gnostics, Buddhists, and others say: We are all ONE; if we harm anything or anyone we harm ourself equally, so for all our sakes we must treat all that exists as if we are dealing with ourselves.

That difference, for me, is the true spiritual core. We are all ONE!

Hear that all ONE every time I see the damage we do to Gaia, to the bottom of our own food chains, to the fight that is going on now here between farmers and the Capitalists who want to frack those farms for $$$$, to the millions of fellow humans who die each and every year through unnecessary wars fought only for the sake of money and power. As Jessie Golem said, devout (in their own eyes) Christians raising money for a better-looking car park after she has been where her fellow humans can not get a safe source of clean water.

Maybe we can put it down to the simple fact I have read sci-fi all my life, and have an entirely different perception not just of our universe but of the multiverse.

I do not agree either with the Bible or with Frank Herbert when they say we must rise above our animal nature. We should come to terms with our animal nature because that is what we are.

What gets me is we all seem to agree on Tom Harpur. Isn't he saying much the same thing? Apart from one minor issue, as I read him he is saying exactly what I have been trying to get across for many a year. He even quotes the same authors who had the same impact on me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ujoXRAZU3g
Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam is using The Voice to test Paul to see if he, as the Promised Kwisatz Haderach (Messiah), can prove he has been able to rise above his animal nature.

That, for me, would be like cutting his own throat. He needs to know, understand, and work with his animal nature. Without that he is nothing.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The people's flag is deepest red It shrouded oft our martyred dead
...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer We'll keep the red flag flying here
 
Posts: 2901 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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