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Steadfast... |
Everyone,
I read this article yesterday, in the online version of Andrew Cohen's EnlightenNext magazine. It's by Elizabeth Debold, one of the senior editors of that magazine. I read a lot of good articles online on any given day, but this one is a truly great article because it addresses a rather esoteric but very longstanding pet peeve of mine, namely Jungian sexism and sex stereotyping. In other words--is it archetype or stereotype? I've been fighting this particular battle not with my enemies but with some of my closest friends and even my spiritual teachers literally for decades! All I can say is, finally, finally, FINALLY somebody gets it!!! My printer cartridge is getting kind of low on ink, but I'm going to print this one out as soon as I get a new one. Meanwhile I'm posting the link here so I don't have to track it down again. And so that everyone else can read it and hopefully give me some feedback on it. Love and Light, Linda
<snip> Source ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa |
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Steadfast... |
Okay, so far, so good. It's very well written, but basically it's nothing I haven't read many times before. And it's nothing I haven't thought, felt, and for the most part believed myself...with certain reservations and qualifications!
THAT is the part I want to address here, so I'm going to quote from further along in the article to give everyone some idea where she's going with this.
I just read this over, and it's probably still clear as mud to everyone what my point is and where I'm trying to go with all this. Please try to be patient and bear with me. The point is that from the very beginning, I questioned ALL of these glib and facile equations of masculine=Logos and feminine=Eros, to name just one. They made me profoundly uncomfortable, and I felt they were just wrong. That may surprise anyone who knows how enthralled I am with Jung's various typologies--Bluelamp, please take note! What always felt so wrong to me is that it simply didn't square with my own experience, either of myself or the men I've been close to in my life. But especially of myself. The difficulties started early on when I couldn't decide if I was primarily a Jungian "thinking type" or a "feeling type." Both tendencies seemed equally strong in me, although as it turns out I test as an INFP (feeling type) on the MBTI--the "F" is for feeling. That's only one example, and maybe not even the most important one. What it all boils down to, I guess, is my experience during my childhood and through my mid-teens of projecting an image that was both stereotypically "feminine" and utterly deceptive and wrong at the same time. The way other people perceived me from the outside (and I understand why they did) and the way I perceived myself from the inside were almost polar opposites. The outer image was the stereotypical clingy, helpless, dependent female--easily given to tears and emotional outbursts (and I am). But I'm also feisty and aggressive and fiercely independent intellectually, and these are stereotypically "masculine" qualities. But they didn't begin to manifest in my outward persona until my late teens, because until then I was simply too inhibited to express them. It was nothing more than that. --Linda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa |
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Devoted... |
I'm not sure why the differences between genders would be assumed to be intrinsic to the collective unconscious. To me it seems more likely that gender attributes are a side-effect of the body one winds up living in. If that makes sense.
Henry |
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Steadfast... |
Henry, It almost goes without saying that to a certain degree, gender attributes are a side-effect of the body one winds up living in. Elizabeth Debold notes in the article that when small children play with blocks, boys are more likely to build towers while girls are more likely to construct enclosures. That's a natural projection of the way they experience themselves in their bodies. But there's a cultural factor going on at the same time that is at least as potent as the physical one. Elizabeth Debold's central insight--and the reason I find this article so valuable--is that just like Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung was a Victorian. He apparently believed he had freed himself from the cultural assumptions of his time to a much greater degree than was actually the case. Worse than that, his many disciples believe the same thing, resulting in a whole raft of a priori assumptions they should really examine more critically. If you can stand another long quote, here's the core of her thesis from the top of page 2:
I can even remember one of my old drinking buddies in the Gnostic Society (not the sharpest tool in the shed) assert to me that according to Jung, men and women were "irreconcilable opposites." He was quoting Jung, or thought he was anyway. I haven't seen the quotation myself and hope it wasn't quite that bad, but it could have been.
Yeah, all of this was very "scientific" back in the day. But I think you know better than anyone just how full of itself and totally wrong nineteenth-century science was. --Linda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa |
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Steadfast... |
The conclusion:
I've known about this problem for decades. I still don't know what to do about it. But it's good to see it presented so eloquently, and in someone else's words. --Linda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa |
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Devoted... |
Linda,
I am not really prepared to jump into this in the depth that might be needed. So feel free to ignore my thoughts. But I always wondered why we could not accept the fact that men and women are different without immediately getting into superior and inferior characterizations. Equality does not have to mean same. Physical dominance can't be brushed aside here. It is a cultural fact and I think it accounts for so much male/female interaction. And this of course results in control. Including deciding who is mentally superior. This is changing imo, in part because in todays world, physical strength is becoming much less of a need for survival. More female jack hammer operators does not address anything. I know this is old stuff to you, but there it is anyway. P.S. Your Divine Feminine made me think of Dan Brown's DaVinci Code. I had never run across the term before and it sure got him into a lot of trouble with the Catholic Church. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tee "Blaming other people for your problems is self-defeating - even if you're right. - WJC |
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Steadfast... |
John, I've always wondered the same thing! Even when survival necessitates a division of labor based upon physical characteristics, there is no inherent reason for the female role to be considered inferior. For example: In hunting/gathering societies, the men do the hunting for a very good reason: They have greater upper-body strength. But the women are responsible for providing the rest of the food supply, which as a general rule is much more reliable. If you have to depend on hunting, it's very much a case of feast or famine. So why would the women's contribution be perceived as less valuable? And even if it isn't, why would those who provide it be perceived as less valuable? As a matter of fact, I'm not sure they are. I believe many if not most pre-technological societies are also pre-patriachal, but it's something I'd have to research.
Yeah, because for the past two millennia they have been working very hard at denying the existence of the Divine Feminine! But it even exists within their own theology, although they try to cover it up. The Holy Spirit is the female aspect of the Trinity, officially presented as "neuter." But its symbol is the dove, the emblem of Aphrodite. This is made explicit in the Gnostic Gospels: "Some say Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit. They are in error. What they are saying they do not know. When did a woman ever conceive of a woman?" --Linda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa |
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Coming along... |
Hi Linda,
I am slowing working to understand women better, and its valuable to hear your point of view of the situation. All I can see: If men and women were truly opposites, then it would not be necessary to make contrasts. Women enter the world with a different set of needs from men, and they enter with a different set of abilities. The sexes do have needs and abilities in common but its convenient to say that each sex has a different 'Set' of needs and 'Set' of abilities. The most common false assumption about men and women that I hear is that we are compatible. Other misunderstandings tend to spiral out from there when discussing differences between sexes, because we're actually not that compatible. We make ourselves compatible by making allowances for the differences, and more often by ignoring them. Worst of all, talking is not communication. When we sit down to talk about things, it isn't enough. Talking is not enough, and it takes a lot of life experiences to communicate even what the issues are. Not only is discussion confusing, but old hurts & insecurities come up, so its hard to see clearly past, discuss, or listen. I mean, dealing with the issues is like maneuvering past a black hole in outer space. Why not just go way, way around? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The sun now rose upon the right: Out of the sea came he, Still hid in mist, and on the left Went down into the sea. |
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Steadfast... |
Tambien, I hope it doesn't bother you too much to know you just left yourself WIDE open for a comparison with one of Sean's recent drawings. You're probably too new around here to realize it was there (also on his blog). Would it surprise you to know that until very recently, when you made some specific reference to your sex, that I thought you were a woman? Now I have absolutely NO idea why I made that assumption, but I did until just a couple of weeks ago. I'm not sure what that means exactly, but if definitely suggests that the differences between male and female, aside from the physical ones, may not be as great as you apparently think they are. I've just spent the last couple of hours reading a whole bunch of interviews with different people in the feminist section of EnlightenNext. All of them have such wildly varying perspectives that I've become totally confused. I find myself agreeing with all of them up to a point...then vehemently disagreeing! I think I need to get away from the computer and spend a little time writing in my journal, not even trying to relate to anyone else. At this point I couldn't tell you what my POV is because I don't even know myself! --Linda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa |
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Enthusiast... |
Linda,
My first thought was - " No - never ! " It was about females and the dis- abled. But more thinking, I thought about combat. With the disabled, I would have to understand how before making the judgement. But the female took more thoughts. Why ? It was not the physical. So what was it ? There was no real reason why. And with more realizing about combat, I start to think why not females when the females I knew would have been often better than the males I knew ! " Girls and guys this is what we must do. So if you two do this and you four do that and the rest of us do this other thing, that'll get the job done. Let's go ! " I see no true - real reason there should be a difference in treating females and males. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William |
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Devoted... |
Linda, Do what I do. Take a nap. Sometimes we need to completely vacate the mind and give it a rest. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tee "Blaming other people for your problems is self-defeating - even if you're right. - WJC |
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Coming along... |
Linda, It doesn't bother me to hear this perspective of me from you, because you have a reputation with me. You wouldn't say it for nothing, especially if your were concerned it might be abrasive. Feedback is good. Some of the things I said need clarification, such as where I said men and women are not compatible or that talking is not communication. I assumed these would be understood without going into detail, which is a mistake I make a lot when explaining things. Something has been left out of the above quoted article. I see what she means by "But the persistent identification of women with these domestic attributes can put national female political leaders between a rock and a hard place." Yes, that's true. And I agree she's right to say that "in equating women, body, and nature, we reinforce the deep belief of patriarchal culture that divides women and men: Women are nature; men are culture." which is a mistake. What is missing is an understanding of where these patriarchal attitudes come from, so that we can pull the base of the problem vine from the root of the good tree. Women are not more natural or less cultural than men. She's right, but she's missing the root of the divide; which is that the male-female communication problem (the bad vine) is rooted in our deceptive mating instincts (the good root). Women are enforcers of natural selection, much the same as females of many species. They must demand a certain kind of dance, which I'll roughly describe: In humans, it is set up so that women are driven to be mysterious and random (to creatively flee) but to demand comprehension, while in reproduction men are mentally pursuit focused (narrow minded/reactive) and unable to comprehend exactly what is demanded. Building upon this, women desire to feel understood, appreciated, supported, protected and more, but a man cannot naturally actually understand or truly provide all the things he's expected to. He knows this. To reproduce, a man should be clever enough to make her believe he understands, can react, is 'All that'. Its humankind's analogue to the mating dance of a bird or other critter. To help reproduction along, women also have the gift of sometimes making believe, rather than having to be fully convinced. The better a deceiver and the more clever a man is, the better is his reproduction. In other words, with evolution deception is necessary for human conception. That's where the problem starts. That's just the way it is, so the challenge is making the best of this. It is clear today that women are not less cultural than men nor more natural. Its clear that equality is the only good route, since men and women need each other. I agree with explaining the feminine, but to explain the feminine you cannot leave out the masculine. If you want to talk about divine things you cannot take the masculine which says 'I do not understand' and put it into a trashcan labeled 'Redneck'. Unfortunately, that happens; and men also tend to completely discount the feminine as flippant. A spiritual discussion must rise above the instincts of both men & women. The natural role of the male is not to understand. Conversely, the role of the female is to say "You should understand already." Neither approach is going to work. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The sun now rose upon the right: Out of the sea came he, Still hid in mist, and on the left Went down into the sea. |
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Steadfast... |
John, --Linda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa |
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Linda,
This tale is true. A certain person, well known to me, was asked by a loved one for help with a science project. Both the helper and the helped are notably romantic eleventh graders, but short on scientific know-how.That is why my counsel was requested and how I came to know this story. The project was, in fact, a contest: The winner would be the student who used the minimum amount of material to protect an egg from breaking when the egg was allowed to strike a concrete floor after falling freely for ten feet. They began the effort enthusiastically and several eggs were sacrificed to science before the helped remembered urgent business elsewhere. The helper had no call to other duties, so continued experimenting doggedly and alone until past the witching hour. Triumph was the outcome: When the contest was conducted, the three judges unanimously agreed that the packaging was superior to that devised by any of the other contestants. Now, if you can guess the respective genders of the helped and helper, I will tell you how the winning egg was packaged. Seán |
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Steadfast... |
Tambien, DON'T BE SO SURE ABOUT THAT!!! And even if it's true, don't be so sure you already know what those differences are. I'm not talking about the obvious physical differences here, because we all know what they are and there's no debate or controversy about them. Be especially careful with this "women's need for protection" thing. In most of the world to this day, women are ENSLAVED because of their alleged need for "protection." Women need freedom and autonomy far more than they need protection, because without freedom, without self-determination, they have NO protection from anyone or anything, especially not from predatory males. Just one example: In Sudanese refugee camps, it's almost impossible to find a girl or woman who has NOT been raped at least once. Sometimes they are little girls as young as four years old. I was just reading about this in a U.N. report yesterday. The abstract, theoretical level (the way I started this thread) is my preferred way of approaching any issue, but as a "privileged" Western woman, privileged simply by the fact that I'm protected by American law (so far anyway), I can't ever lose sight of the fact that for most of my sisters around the world, women's liberation is literally a life-and-death issue. This is really a hit-and-run post to kick the thread, and to let you know I read your last couple of posts and that I've been thinking about them. I'll respond in more depth as soon as I have time. --Linda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ― Frank Zappa |
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Coming along... |
I'm glad I can bounce this off you. If you don't have time to reply, it is ok; but it was be super awesome if you could. I know you have something to say. A clear understanding of this is foundational -- like being able to read & write, because almost everything in the world relates to this. Whatever people write, say, or do their perspective on this affects it. I think you're right about the protectionism being way off, and we shouldn't give way to it or make excuses. If women are perceived as weak and vulnerable, it triggers powerful devices in men. Overprotection probably happens because jealousy in men is triggered by this perception. 'Jealousy' may seem an incorrect description for the situation, however that is what it FEELS like. Its not that much different from the feelings that overprotective parents get. When I hear about something happening to women, I feel deadly rage mixed with impotence. Then I think about those that I know (siblings, friends, relatives) I get an overwhelming feeling of protection and (though I am a man) a motherly feeling. Sorting through my feelings as best I can I think that jealously is only different from overprotection, because of who it is I am thinking about. The situation is different, but the feeling is the same. My own love gets confused and pushes me to 'Do something!' It is a huge 'Protectionist' tendency that becomes a button that is easily pushed; and its so powerful as to drive out good sense. Men just go with it. Women take care of themselves all the time (often have to go it alone), yet many men have trouble accepting it. It is duplicitous, and we need to move past it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The sun now rose upon the right: Out of the sea came he, Still hid in mist, and on the left Went down into the sea. |
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