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Devoted...
Picture of JohnT
Posted
I'm not a religious scholar and this will probably get me in trouble wit some of my Jewish friends but I'll toss it out anyway.

When I read the OT LITERALLY I have a hard time relating it to the Jewish culture that I see today. Especially in the USA.

Imo, Jewish thought and Jewish culture is maybe the most rational and advanced in the world today.
And I just can't connect it with the OT/Torah.

I go now. Tiptoe Away    :tiptoe:


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Tee
"Blaming other people for your problems is self-defeating - even if you're right. - WJC
 
Posts: 6934 | Location: Detroit, MI | Mbr Since: 10-12-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of CompGuy
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Why do you think Jews read the OT literally? Here's the delicate phrasing of Wikipedia:
quote:
The various denominations of Jews and Christians hold a diverse spectrum of views regarding the exactitude of scripture


I was brought up as a Reformed Jew--the running joke being that we were so reformed that we closed for the Jewish holidays. Most of my fellow "Jews" in my Hebrew and Sunday School classes were atheists, as were their parents, although the kids admitted it more readily than the adults. We read the Torah and were taught it as a metaphorical book, composed by many different people.

Here's one description of Reformed Judaism:

quote:


Reform Judaism is the most liberal of the major movements within Judaism today. It started in the 1800s in Germany during the emancipation and encouraged the examination of religion with an eye toward rationality and egalitarianism.

Reform Judaism differs from the other major movements in that it views both the Oral and Written laws as a product of human hands (specifically, it views the Torah as divinely inspired, but written in the language of the time in which it was given). The laws reflect their times, but contain many timeless truths. The Reform movement stresses retention of the key principles of Judaism. As for practice, it strongly recommends individual study of the traditional practices; however, the adherent is free to follow only those practices that increase the sanctity of their relationship to God. Reform Judaism also stresses equality between the sexes.

Reform Judaism shares the universal Jewish emphasis on learning, duty and obligation, rather than creed as the primary expression of a religious life. Reform stresses that ethical responsibilities, personal and social, are enjoined by God. Reform also believes that our ethical obligations are but a beginning; they extend to many other aspects of Jewish living, including creating a Jewish home centered on family devotion; lifelong study; private prayer and public worship; daily religious observance; keeping the Sabbath and the holy days; celebrating the major events of life; involvement with the synagogue and community and other activities that promote the survival of the Jewish people and enhance its existence. Within each aspect of observance, Reform Judaism demands that Jews confront the claims of Jewish tradition, however differently perceived, and exercise their individual autonomy — based, as the Shema says, upon reason, heart and strength — choosing and creating their holiness as people and as community. The requirement for commitment and knowledge is repeatedly emphasized. A Reform Jew who determines their practice based on convenience alone is not acting in accordance with the recommended position of Reform Judaism. Reform also rejects the faith tenets of other religions as a matter of first principles.
Source:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrar...eform_practices.html

Notice throughout that description the emphasis on rationality and thought, not dogma, and that part of the religion itself is the demand that each individual exercise individual autonomy based on "reason, heart and strength." Dogma and a literal interpretation of the Bible is the last thing a Reformed Jew can be accused of.

Feel better now? :lol

Jeff
 
Posts: 7085 | Location: US | Mbr Since: 10-12-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Enthusiast...
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Jeff,

My late wife was raised Conservative and turned atheist and then to New Thought. Definately not Jewish. Neither of her children practice Judiasm even remotely. Her daughter the last I checked was looking at a couple of Christian churches interestingly enough.

I do not have any exact statistics, but I note that many Humanists and others who lean in the direction of atheism are from a Jewish background.

Regards,


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Glenn
 
Posts: 3403 | Location: Arizona USA | Mbr Since: 10-17-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
Picture of JohnT
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"Why do you think Jews read the OT literally?"

They obviously do NOT.
And I see little reference to it by Jewish religious leaders. Or any other Jews for that matter.
So it would seem that Jewish culture is based primarily on rational thought.

But is there what Christians term religious faith and what does that have to do with Moses and the OT?

Christians, otoh place enormous emphasis on the words of the entire Bible.
It is rather ironic that Christians seem to believe more deeply in the OT than do Jews.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tee
"Blaming other people for your problems is self-defeating - even if you're right. - WJC
 
Posts: 6934 | Location: Detroit, MI | Mbr Since: 10-12-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Never goes away...
Picture of Holy Bhagworm
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quote:
Christians, otoh place enormous emphasis on the words of the entire Bible.
It is rather ironic that Christians seem to believe more deeply in the OT than do Jews.


"Christians, otoh place enormous emphasis on the words of the entire Bible.
It is rather ironic that Christians seem to believe more deeply in the OT than do Jews."

Yes, Xtians place emphasis on words with no pretense for placing emphasis on thoughts. And concepts are totally out of the question. There's no irony because despite what you grokked from Jeff, Jews read the scriptures and think deeply about them. And because we're Jews, we each have our own opinions. There would never be a possibility of a Jewish televangelist - 'cos we'd laugh him off the TV.

Holy Bhagworm
 
Posts: 13787 | Location: 1 | Mbr Since: 08-11-2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
Picture of JohnT
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Holy,
Just for my own education, would you say that what has been summarized about Reform Judaism also applies to Orthodox?
Or would they come closer to fundamentalist Christians in their way of thinking?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tee
"Blaming other people for your problems is self-defeating - even if you're right. - WJC
 
Posts: 6934 | Location: Detroit, MI | Mbr Since: 10-12-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Steadfast...
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quote:
When I read the OT LITERALLY I have a hard time relating it to the Jewish culture that I see today. Especially in the USA.

Imo, Jewish thought and Jewish culture is maybe the most rational and advanced in the world today.
And I just can't connect it with the OT/Torah.

John,

Here's the quick-and-dirty short answer: It has to do with the long-established oral tradition in Judaism, known as the Talmud. This provided a kind of "interface" that often had the effect of modifying some of the more draconian laws--such as those under discussion on the other thread--very often to the point of nullifying them completely.

Sorry I don't have time to get more deeply into this, but it's 4:21 a.m. and I should have been asleep hours ago!

--Linda


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The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.”
― Frank Zappa
 
Posts: 18257 | Location: So. Calif., USA | Mbr Since: 03-12-2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Devoted...
Picture of JohnT
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quote:
John,

Here's the quick-and-dirty short answer: It has to do with the long-established oral tradition in Judaism, known as the Talmud. This provided a kind of "interface" that often had the effect of modifying some of the more draconian laws--such as those under discussion on the other thread--very often to the point of nullifying them completely.

Sorry I don't have time to get more deeply into this, but it's 4:21 a.m. and I should have been asleep hours ago!

--Linda


Thanks Linda,
Your quick-and-dirty short answer explains allot. Smile   :)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tee
"Blaming other people for your problems is self-defeating - even if you're right. - WJC
 
Posts: 6934 | Location: Detroit, MI | Mbr Since: 10-12-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Never goes away...
Picture of Holy Bhagworm
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT:
Holy,
Just for my own education, would you say that what has been summarized about Reform Judaism also applies to Orthodox?
Or would they come closer to fundamentalist Christians in their way of thinking?


There's little to link orthodox Jews with reformists. And there's even less to link orthodox Jews with fundamentalists Christians, imo. And Jews don't proselytize, thank G-d. You don't want to be a Jew?....it's fine with them.

Holy Bhagworm
 
Posts: 13787 | Location: 1 | Mbr Since: 08-11-2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Never goes away...
Picture of Holy Bhagworm
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BTW, you'd love the Jewish Museum in NYC, JohnT. We're not talking the Holocaust Museum here...it's a museum and tribute to Jewish history which actually doesn't mention the Holocaust. It's an amazing history.

Holy Bhagworm
 
Posts: 13787 | Location: 1 | Mbr Since: 08-11-2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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