Sean, if you're trying to PROVIDE such things and not pray for them, great. So why use the word pray, then? And how is providing care and companionship for sick people related to praying for them?

As I've said several times, the prayer part of the action is irrelevant. We're absolutely agreed that it's good to help the sick in practical ways. But those who sit and pray are doing nothing useful at all. Whatever the prayer part of their actions is, it's a waste of their time.

Jeff

quote:

...the prayer part of the action is irrelevant.CompGuy

Jeff,
     As you use it, prayer is a surplus word. I needed a word, so I carefully redefined prayer to imply active participation instead of passive supplication. I am not the first to embrace this change in meaning; when St. Benedict of Nursia said "Work is prayer." he had the same thing in mind. If you can suggest a better word, I will use it happily. Right now I consider prayer to be any act intended to benefit some aspect of the cosmos.
     I see the Cosmos as a single organism, of which certain parts, like you and me, are sentient. I view the whole with reverence, especially the parts that think. The promise of the future, now that we are learning how to remake ourselves as needed, is wonderful indeed. That is why I have redefined God to mean the Cosmos; the old meaning wasn't very useful anyway.
Humpty Dumpty

Sean, my definition of prayer is the standard one:

quote:

* the act of communicating with a deity (especially as a petition or in adoration or contrition or thanksgiving); "the priest sank to his knees in ...
* reverent petition to a deity
* entreaty: earnest or urgent request; "an entreaty to stop the fighting"; "an appeal for help"; "an appeal to the public to keep calm"
* a fixed text used in praying
* someone who prays to God

Source:
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=prayer

I don't see the point of using the word prayer when you mean something entirely different. That's confusing.

Jeff

quote:

"...my definition of prayer is the standard one..."—CompGuy

Jeff,
     There is no gainsaying that, so I shall abide by it henceforth. What word do you suggest to denote the thing I do? I thought of using reyarp, but it seems a trifle tacky.
Seán

Pace Sean's Humpty Dumpty reference:

quote:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master – that's all."

source
--
Stephen

Sean, apparently you say "I pray for the sick" when you mean "I help the sick" or "I do things for the sick" or whatever. So say what you do "proactively"--there are plenty of words for actual deeds.

Jeff

quote:

So say what you do "proactively"--there are plenty of words for actual deeds.—CompGuy

Jeff,
     I used p**y in an attempt to facilitate discussion. It did not serve, therefore I have said already I will cease to use it. In actuality I remember no occasion whereon I have cataloged my personal endeavors, p**yerful or otherwise. Doing so would seem to me to be vainglorious and shabby.
Seán

quote:

Originally posted by CompGuy:
Sean, my definition of prayer is the standard one:

quote:

* the act of communicating with a deity (especially as a petition or in adoration or contrition or thanksgiving); "the priest sank to his knees in ...
* reverent petition to a deity
* entreaty: earnest or urgent request; "an entreaty to stop the fighting"; "an appeal for help"; "an appeal to the public to keep calm"
* a fixed text used in praying
* someone who prays to God

Source:
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=prayer

I don't see the point of using the word prayer when you mean something entirely different. That's confusing.

Jeff

Jeff and Sean,

Well for one thing, the standard definitions of the word "prayer" don't fit the example I sketched out in my original post. I mean, really...a suburban snake priestess and yogini who experiences the power called Shakti or kundalini when she dances--just how likely is she, how likely are her friends, to "supplicate" that same power, to entreat and beg and plead with it to heal her mother?

There are times when she can feel it flowing through her, and she doesn't ultimately see it as being separate from herself. So for her as for me, prayer has to take a different form than the standard supplication addressed to a Supreme Being. Even when the words used are the words of a conventional prayer (as they may or may not be), there is a difference in meaning. Even though it involves the recognition of a power greater than yourself (or myself anyway), still it is the recognition of a power that flows in you, from you and through you. It's an attempt to activate that power, to intensify it by joining with others, and to guide it in the direction of healing.

I don't agree BTW that prayer doesn't work, or that it works by purely naturalistic means, or that one MUST prove causality in order to be allowed to say that it works. I was reading the introduction to the I Ching last night, the Jung/Bollingen Foundation version translated by Richard Wilhelm. Somehow, the Chinese managed to create an entire philosophical system with no emphasis on causality AT ALL! Like any system of divination, it's ALL based on coincidence, or synchronicity as the Jungians call it. The Chinese have known that for thousands of years, and for whatever reason they are just fine with it. They don't believe that causality automatically equals validity.

I should probably transcribe a little bit of what I read so you'll have a better idea of what I'm trying to say here. I'm paraphrasing, and therefore probably not doing a very good job of explaining it.

--Linda

quote:

Originally posted by Raksha:
31. Do not pray for the fullfilment of your wishes, for they may not be in accordance with the will of God. (...)

I realize this makes me an oddball even on this board, but I ignore this one...consciously and deliberately. I don't think there is anything wrong with so-called "selfish prayer," and I only wish I could remember to pray "selfishly" a lot more often than I do. In no way does that interfere with the free will of my loved ones, because their wishes for me are the same as my wishes for myself. They all wish I'd be more self-sufficient, because then I'd stop being such a burden on them.

Linda, yes I think once one realizes the top priority is the lessons for all involved, there's nothing wrong with communicating what you are thinking including in terms of noticed needs. Laura has certainly mentioned "um money?" to the Cs on more than one occasion (me too to whoever's listening).

-- John

quote:

Originally posted by bluelamp:

quote:

Originally posted by Raksha:
31. Do not pray for the fullfilment of your wishes, for they may not be in accordance with the will of God. (...)

I realize this makes me an oddball even on this board, but I ignore this one...consciously and deliberately. I don't think there is anything wrong with so-called "selfish prayer," and I only wish I could remember to pray "selfishly" a lot more often than I do. In no way does that interfere with the free will of my loved ones, because their wishes for me are the same as my wishes for myself. They all wish I'd be more self-sufficient, because then I'd stop being such a burden on them.

Linda, yes I think once one realizes the top priority is the lessons for all involved, there's nothing wrong with communicating what you are thinking including in terms of noticed needs. Laura has certainly mentioned "um money?" to the Cs on more than one occasion (me too to whoever's listening).

-- John

John,

I know exactly what you mean! Is that one of those "to whom it may concern" prayers?

--Linda

quote:

Originally posted by Sean:

quote:

So say what you do "proactively"--there are plenty of words for actual deeds.—CompGuy

Jeff,
     I used p**y in an attempt to facilitate discussion. It did not serve, therefore I have said already I will cease to use it. In actuality I remember no occasion whereon I have cataloged my personal endeavors, p**yerful or otherwise. Doing so would seem to me to be vainglorious and shabby.
Seán

Sean,

Just letting you know I can read between the lines on this one.

--Linda

quote:

It's an attempt to activate that power, to intensify it by joining with others, and to guide it in the direction of healing.

The word used is unimportant, the niceties and nuances are unimportant. It doesn't matter what you think you're doing. There is no power to activate; there is nothing to intensify; there is no possibility of guiding something non-existent "in the direction of healing." Sorry.

First you have to start with something real--some demonstrable effect. Then you can get into the nuances and the wording and the distinctions and the tests to find out what works and what doesn't. Then you can get into the refinement of techniques and the most efficient ways to use the techniques and the best way to join together and amplify the force or power or whatever that you've demonstrated. Then you can get into the ethics of using it.

But you can't get beyond the first step, and so there's no need to be concerned about the other steps. There's nothing real here. You just imagining some usefulness in these thought games. You're deluding yourselves.

I understand those are strong words. They're impolite. They might even be insulting. But why do you persist in believing things for which you have absolutely zero credible evidence? There's nothing there.

If you really think there is, then you have to explain why test after test, study after study, fail to show any positive results whatever, however you define the term "prayer" and whatever the belief system or technique or world view of those doing the praying.

If I said a talking frog gave me power to heal the sick, you'd first assume I was nuts but, in fairness, you'd give me a chance to prove I could heal the sick. If I couldn't, you'd be convinced I was nuts about that talking frog and I was delusional about my own powers. Why apply a different standard to your own beliefs than you'd apply to an obvious nut? You folks don't control healing forces or energies; there's no entity or the Cosmos or a deity paying attention to what you're doing. What you're doing wastes your time and doesn't help anyone. Stop kidding yourselves.

Jeff

quote:

...the standard definitions of the word "prayer" don't fit the example...—Raksha

Linda,
     Today the threat of snow caused me to interrupt my work to buy some groceries. My truck
was working well when I parked it yesterday, but this morning it refused to start until I
jumped it with a gadget called a Power Station, which I have owned for years and
thought I'd never need. I drove off despite an array of warning lights forecasting dire
malfunctions. When I finished shopping I jumped started once again and drove home with
every available signal on the dashboard flashing wildly. The display was truly brilliant
and I wish I had been able to appreciate it more fully, but of course I couldn't because
I was busy driving.
     Home at last, I left the motor running while I stuffed the perishables in the refrigerator
and left all else piled on the kitchen table. By this time my keen mind inferred that something was amiss with my vehicle. So I headed for the nearest car repair place, remembering not to p**y, and was within quarter-mile of my goal when the motor stopped abruptly, approximately two car-lengths from a traffic light, on an extremely busy street. The ignition wouldn't function; even the warning lights went dead. I could see I faced a challenge.
     I disembarked to wave the backed-up traffic by while I meditated on a possible solution. No answer seemed forthcoming until an accommodating young man in his very early twenties parked his little car precariously and came to my assistance. Together we were able to push my truck, locked steering wheel and all, into the intersecting side street, parking it adjacent to a fire-hydrant. My Power Station was depleted and his car-battery lacked the power for a jump-start with a cable, so he hauled me to the automotive service place where I purchased a new battery. Then he hauled me back to my truck again and, over my protests, did most of the work required for the installation. It was a nasty job that required a good amount of time. Once done, starting was a breeze, but within a block the motor died again and the ignition ceased responding.
     Amazingly he had followed me and he stopped when I coasted over to the curb. After a brief conference, I tested the ignition again. Oh, joy! That time it worked. I made a U-turn and headed for service station while he followed close behind me, just in case. I told the officiating mechanic to fix whatever he found wrong and to call me when the truck was ready. Leaving it at that, my rescuer drove me home and made it clear he would accept no compensation. During the whole episode, which lasted for two hours, he showed no sign whatever of annoyance or impatience and seemed to think the entire episode was as enjoyable as a picnic.
     Obviously he was not p**ying, but he assuredly was amassing beneficial karma and he made a friend who will be grateful for the remainder of my life.
     By the way, the mechanic called to tell me only a minor adjustment was needed. His charge is nearly nothing. Hardly enough to pay for dirtying his hands.
Seán