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life begins with the first breath
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FAUX-christians who insist otherwise simply do not KNOW and/or simply want to control Women.

I say to them, seek the answers for yourself. As I have said before FAUX-christians (rather than being led by their sin-filled evangelicals) only need to actually READ and FOLLOW Christ for themselves (instead of being told what to believe and do).

Christ clearly taught them that it IS NOT their place to judge others or to exact any penalty from anyone that they perceive as not following GOD's LAW. Some examples, that they can read & heed for themselves (paraphrased below because different NT versions state things differently) follow:
    ...let those without sin cast the first stone

    ...concern yourself not with the splinter in your neighbor's eye when you have not dealt with the LOG in your own

    ...if a thief wants your coat give him your clothes also

    ...turn the other cheek
Some examples of "life begins with the first breath" can also be found within their "bible"
    Genesis 2:7

    Job 33:4

    Ezekiel 37:5
If it can be said that "prayer" is petitioning/talking to GOD... then it can be said that "meditation" is "listening" to GOD:
    "be still and know that I am GOD" (Psalm 46:10)
So, if one really wants to know what GOD meant, they simply need only to "go within" and "listen" to THE SOURCE. That's *right* ...
    "the kingdom of GOD is within you" (Luke 17:20-21)
... it is fruitless to look elsewhere for answers (especially seeking meaning from FAUX-christian preachers).
 
 
Posts: 24927 | Location: VA | Mbr Since: 11-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Abortion is a bomb waiting to go off. All it takes is a match.

Well, at risk I will light a match.

I believe that life begins with the first breath. Can I prove it? No. Can you prove any alternate explanation such as first ugh. First uniting of sperm and egg? No again.

With that I will say that deliberately aborting a pregnancy where the fetus could otherwise live is murder.

When breath is not possible, I treat it the same as the birth control pill.

And people should be very careful and realize that they take on a responsibility when they make love.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Glenn
 
Posts: 3413 | Location: California | Mbr Since: 10-17-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Glenn:
Abortion is a bomb waiting to go off. All it takes is a match.

Well, at risk I will light a match.

I believe that life begins with the first breath. Can I prove it? No. Can you prove any alternate explanation such as first ugh. First uniting of sperm and egg? No again.

With that I will say that deliberately aborting a pregnancy where the fetus could otherwise live is murder.

When breath is not possible, I treat it the same as the birth control pill.

And people should be very careful and realize that they take on a responsibility when they make love.
Hey Glenn,

Thanks for adding your perspective here. I find it to be refreshing: in so far as NO ONE can absolutely define when life begins for ALL others in our society.
    not religiously (as when a "soul" enters)

    not scientifically (there is certainly have no agreement there)

    what's more? the viability of the unborn (to be able to breathe on their own) will keep changing with advances in medical science -- IMO: test tube babies, with no transplant into a womb, will not be uncommon in decades to come)
I have argued before, many times... if we are to say, absolutely and legally that life begins "at whatever point" ... then we must also INSIST (from whatever that point is) to do ALL of the following:
    give that "non person" a NAME

    give that "non person" a SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER

    give that "non person" the same benefits as all others on INHERITANCE issues and INSURANCE POLICIES

    allow the parent/s to claim that "non person" as an additional EXEMPTION ON TAXES
Doing all of the above will actually establish, by law, at what point "life begins in our country" (other countries will surely differ in their definition and rights/benefits).

If we are unwilling to do all of the above, then we have no grounds for argument as to when "life begins". Everything else which society is presently at odds about is merely a way to maintain control and remove CHOICE from women... and I strongly object to that on behalf of my wife and FEMALE siblings, children, grandchildren and all WOMEN everywhere!

...just my 2¢   :2cents:
 
 
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Chronic...
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Want my two cents?

Life began a few billion years ago. Wink   ;)

(But back then, there was probably no breathing as we understand it.)
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Henry J:
Want my two cents?

Life began a few billion years ago. Wink   ;)

(But back then, there was probably no breathing as we understand it.)
No disagreement here. I should have specified modern-day human life on planet earth (as we know it).
 
 
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That's not really the same question that the topic started with, any more than my remark was.

But pinning down when "modern human" life started would require unambiguous definitions of "modern" and "human". I rather suspect that if one goes back tens to hundreds of thousands of years to see what's there then, there would be no unambiguous dividing line.

As for the original question of the topic, I think that's a subjective judgment call, not a scientific question.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Henry J:
That's not really the same question that the topic started with, any more than my remark was.

But pinning down when "modern human" life started would require unambiguous definitions of "modern" and "human". I rather suspect that if one goes back tens to hundreds of thousands of years to see what's there then, there would be no unambiguous dividing line.

As for the original question of the topic, I think that's a subjective judgment call, not a scientific question.
re: "modern human"

Okay, Anatomically modern human... you know, the ones where the present day FEMALES are being denied choice & control over their own bodies.

And since that denial and control is based upon "the unborn" being a person... my stance on that issue is that it is totally BS   :bs:
 
 
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Yep. On that question we're on the same side. I'm not going to put somebody in jail for not having a kid she didn't want.
 
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Picture of Reed N D Dark
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quote:
Originally posted by Anti-Fascism:
quote:
Originally posted by Glenn:
Abortion is a bomb waiting to go off. All it takes is a match.

Well, at risk I will light a match.

I believe that life begins with the first breath. Can I prove it? No. Can you prove any alternate explanation such as first ugh. First uniting of sperm and egg? No again.

With that I will say that deliberately aborting a pregnancy where the fetus could otherwise live is murder.

When breath is not possible, I treat it the same as the birth control pill.

And people should be very careful and realize that they take on a responsibility when they make love.
Hey Glenn,

Thanks for adding your perspective here. I find it to be refreshing: in so far as NO ONE can absolutely define when life begins for ALL others in our society.
    not religiously (as when a "soul" enters)

    not scientifically (there is certainly have no agreement there)

    what's more? the viability of the unborn (to be able to breathe on their own) will keep changing with advances in medical science -- IMO: test tube babies, with no transplant into a womb, will not be uncommon in decades to come)
I have argued before, many times... if we are to say, absolutely and legally that life begins "at whatever point" ... then we must also INSIST (from whatever that point is) to do ALL of the following:
    give that "non person" a NAME

    give that "non person" a SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER

    give that "non person" the same benefits as all others on INHERITANCE issues and INSURANCE POLICIES

    allow the parent/s to claim that "non person" as an additional EXEMPTION ON TAXES
Doing all of the above will actually establish, by law, at what point "life begins in our country" (other countries will surely differ in their definition and rights/benefits).

If we are unwilling to do all of the above, then we have no grounds for argument as to when "life begins". Everything else which society is presently at odds about is merely a way to maintain control and remove CHOICE from women... and I strongly object to that on behalf of my wife and FEMALE siblings, children, grandchildren and all WOMEN everywhere!

...just my 2¢   :2cents:
 



I always wanted to see miscarriages used as deductions too. Not because I thought it should be legal, just to point out the illogic of some theses of when life begins!
 
Posts: 4376 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:

I always wanted to see miscarriages used as deductions too. Not because I thought it should be legal, just to point out the illogic of some theses of when life begins!
Maybe some believer (there appears to be at least one over in the NEWS forum), in any abortion being murder, would care to listen to your wisdom?!

Thank you for your insight! Smile-Big   :D
 
 
Posts: 24927 | Location: VA | Mbr Since: 11-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Anti-Fascism:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:

I always wanted to see miscarriages used as deductions too. Not because I thought it should be legal, just to point out the illogic of some theses of when life begins!
Maybe some believer (there appears to be at least one over in the NEWS forum), in any abortion being murder, would care to listen to your wisdom?!

Thank you for your insight! Smile-Big   :D


From a Judaism POV life didn't start till the first breath per Genesis. And that the death of a fetus was only a 'civil' crime if a miscarriage was caused by harm to mother. Also an abortificant is used to judge whether the wife committed adultery.


On the other hand, from personal experience, a fetus has it's own seperate life force early on (with a couple of weeks of conception). Though I understand the soul doesn't enter till around 4 months. Mileage might vary on that last.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bryan j borich
 
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quote:
[LIST] not religiously (as when a "soul" enters)



To be honest I wouldn't bet on that.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bryan j borich
 
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quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
    not religiously (as when a "soul" enters)
To be honest I wouldn't bet on that.
Well, frankly, I've yet to hear/see reasoned proof... as to what I originally posted... a more complete quote is as follows:
quote:
"...NO ONE can absolutely define when life begins for ALL others in our society.
    ...not religiously (as when a "soul" enters)"
Certainly, based on FAITH, one might argue the point...

I was raised Roman Catholic... went to Catholic Schools through graduation from High School... served as an altar-boy for years... nearly went to seminary to become a priest... so I am not unfamiliar with what the Christian Church holds to be their truth.
 
 
Posts: 24927 | Location: VA | Mbr Since: 11-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Anti-Fascism:
quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
quote:
    not religiously (as when a "soul" enters)
To be honest I wouldn't bet on that.
Well, frankly, I've yet to hear/see reasoned proof... as to what I originally posted... a more complete quote is as follows:
quote:
"...NO ONE can absolutely define when life begins for ALL others in our society.
    ...not religiously (as when a "soul" enters)"
Certainly, based on FAITH, one might argue the point...


 


As a rule we accept everything on faith, as there is no real proof of anything, except maybe that we have a consciousness and even that could be debated.

"Danger - Rabbit Hole ahead"


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bryan j borich
 
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That's often attributed to Albert Einstein.

I'm not certain that he said it, or that he even existed. I'm fairly sure that I am married; have three children; have five grandchildren; just typed this reply... beyond that, at this very moment, nothing matters. Wink   ;)
 
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Anti-Fascism:
That's often attributed to Albert Einstein.

I'm not certain that he said it, or that he even existed. I'm fairly sure that I am married; have three children; have five grandchildren; just typed this reply... beyond that, at this very moment, nothing matters. Wink   ;)
 


I heard that again just yesterday. There is a quote site that checks quote validity btw.

See Solopsism vs Materialism. Also the movie trilogy The Matrix is based on Gnostic and Buddhists understanding of reality.

[I wasn't brought up in any religion, though being in a more of less Christian society, I did pick up some indoctrination. Said indoctrination being entirely false.]


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bryan j borich
 
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FWIW:

We all are where we find ourselves today because of the choices we have made (about how we react to what we perceive to be external influences?). Our choices are bound by our mindsets at the time which those choices are made.

I don't know if anyone here is familiar with "A Course in Miracles" [ACIM], but I have studied it (in far more depth than just a cursory read). No, it's not about healing the sick, raising the dead, walking on water, etc. ... but more so about changing one's thinking. Instead of spending money to purchase the material, ACIM is online (for free).

In a nutshell; ACIM holds that a MIRACLE is a shift in one's perception, thus effecting a change in one's thinking. My present take is that we all "create our own reality".

...just pondering the possibilities
 
 
Posts: 24927 | Location: VA | Mbr Since: 11-08-2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Anti-Fascism:
 
FWIW:

We all are where we find ourselves today because of the choices we have made (about how we react to what we perceive to be external influences?). Our choices are bound by our mindsets at the time which those choices are made.

I don't know if anyone here is familiar with "A Course in Miracles" [ACIM], but I have studied it (in far more depth than just a cursory read). No, it's not about healing the sick, raising the dead, walking on water, etc. ... but more so about changing one's thinking. Instead of spending money to purchase the material, ACIM is online (for free).

In a nutshell; ACIM holds that a MIRACLE is a shift in one's perception, thus effecting a change in one's thinking. My present take is that we all "create our own reality".

...just pondering the possibilities
 


I'm aware of it, but not overly familiar with it.

Entheogens and other mystical experiences can provide such shifts.

Allan over in the coffee shop thread would add NLP too.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
bryan j borich
 
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Picture of Reed N D Dark
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quote:
Originally posted by Anti-Fascism:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:

I always wanted to see miscarriages used as deductions too. Not because I thought it should be legal, just to point out the illogic of some theses of when life begins!
Maybe some believer (there appears to be at least one over in the NEWS forum), in any abortion being murder, would care to listen to your wisdom?!

Thank you for your insight! Smile-Big   :D
 


Sorry I forgot to come back! Thank you.
 
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Aallegiant
Picture of Lynn Dee
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:

I always wanted to see miscarriages used as deductions too. Not because I thought it should be legal, just to point out the illogic of some theses of when life begins!

Excellent!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zach Floyd: "I want Trump to start claiming things like he's eaten 1,000 bees in his life so we can see Scott Walker try to eat a bunch of bees." Plus: And Jeb! take the bold stand of announcing he will not be eating any bees.
 
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Aallegiant
Picture of Lynn Dee
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quote:
Originally posted by Anti-Fascism:
quote:
Originally posted by Henry J:
Want my two cents?

Life began a few billion years ago. Wink   ;)

(But back then, there was probably no breathing as we understand it.)
No disagreement here. I should have specified modern-day human life on planet earth (as we know it).
 

I think you're not even talking about that, Karl, so much as you're talking about an individual life. So no need to figure out when modern life began -- that's a different question.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zach Floyd: "I want Trump to start claiming things like he's eaten 1,000 bees in his life so we can see Scott Walker try to eat a bunch of bees." Plus: And Jeb! take the bold stand of announcing he will not be eating any bees.
 
Posts: 40305 | Location: SoCal by the Mall | Mbr Since: 10-06-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So no need to figure out when modern life began -- that's a different question.

Yep, that's a question, all right. Now if there are no more questions, class is dismissed for the day.
 
Posts: 8908 | Location: Colorado | Mbr Since: 10-17-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Henry J:

Now if there are no more questions...
So, I guess that brings us to: why is there air?
 
 
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Admin
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Dee:
quote:
Originally posted by Anti-Fascism:
quote:
Originally posted by Henry J:
Want my two cents?

Life began a few billion years ago. Wink   ;)

(But back then, there was probably no breathing as we understand it.)
No disagreement here. I should have specified modern-day human life on planet earth (as we know it).
 

I think you're not even talking about that, Karl, so much as you're talking about an individual life. So no need to figure out when modern life began -- that's a different question.
True, initially the topic was more about an individual life and as to when that begins (so as to determine what penalty, if any, for taking a life or non-life).

Obviously, there are many factors that would play a part in her decision but I think that since it is the woman who BEARS the burden and GIVES "life" ... an informed decision to terminate (or not) should ultimately rest with her.

I do not think abortion would be an easy thing for her to choose. But I, personally, will never be faced with such a decision.
 
 
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Chronic...
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quote:
Originally posted by Anti-Fascism:
quote:
Originally posted by Henry J:

Now if there are no more questions...
So, I guess that brings us to: why is there air?
 

To air is human.
 
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