From the World Almanac:

quote:

Ellis Island, in New York Bay, opened Jan. 1, 1892, to receive immigrants.

There is a city claimed by monotheists, Jewish, Christian and Muslim, defined by John, the author of Revelation, and still important to all, the current Jerusalem, with dreams of the new version to come written in Scripture.

quote:

Revelation 21:1-3 (New International Version)

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Note that this does not say the men are to live in the New Jerusalem. Even currently Christians say, "I have Jesus in my heart" and "I have received the Holy Spirit."

For this new string I intend to look further at the structure of spiritual things, with the working hypothesis that the New Jerusalem is indeed like Ellis Island, receiving and guiding the worthy immigrants, and perhaps the less worthy, with scriptural assurance that the backlog will be handled first.

Donald

Water is a key to the New Jerusalem:

quote:

Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

This note was recently posted on Road to Perdition:

quote:

The supply of safe drinking water continues to dwindle:
http://www.lausanneworldpulse....rban.php/332/05-2006

The battle for water continues, in the Holy Land:
http://www.israelnationalnews....ews/News.aspx/138391

Here is another look at water at Creation:
http://leiwenwu.tripod.com/creationwater.htm

To be scientific, here is an article on water from NASA:
http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/w...cycleatmosphere.html

So where and when does the water go? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Donald

This reference shows that water in Israel and the West Bank is increasingly a problem, not just because of thievery:
http://www.biu.ac.il/soc/besa/water/zaslavsky.html

Donald

Pollution degrades land, water and air, contributing to the leaning of the Mathusian population/food starvation through degradation:
http://www.greenstudentu.com/encyclopedia/pollution

With the oil fires adding to air pollution, it is well to note what auto exhaust alone does to the land and plant life:
http://www.mydesert.com/articl...ncreased-fire-threat

Donald

Drinking water is a vital human need. Yet rivers are increasingly the source. In Albuquerque recently 25% of the water for drinking came from the Rio Grande. This year it is being upped to 50%.

In the Middle East the Nile River has become the source of cooperation of the ten African nations that use it. Here is the latest:
http://drinking-water.org/html...ile-River-Basin.html
This in contrast to the water pollution by the Palestinians living on the West Bank. (Note article above.) Both Israel and Egypt use desalination plants.

Here is a recent comment by Israel with comment by a Jordanian professor:
5. JORDANIAN PROFESSOR: ISRAEL WILL GO TO WAR OVER WATER
by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu 11/8/2009
http://sz0030.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/mail#9

Donald

There is a motivation for worthy immigrants to be Marching to Zion!

quote:

Revelation 21
The New Jerusalem
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Indeed the anthem, "We're Marching To Zion", describes the water at the Throne of God as the Crystal Fountain, although most versions speak of a "crystal sea".

Note also that some of the Temple containers were called "seas".

quote:

from Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary:
3: something vast or overwhelming likened to the sea

The Temple vessels were referred to as the BRONZE SEA,
the immense laver that Solomon placed in front of the temple for washing the sacrifices and the bodies of the priests. from the New International Dictionary of the Bible

In other words, there is in the New Jerusalem both drinking and washing water for incoming travelers.

Donald

Donald,

In looking over this new topic, my first thought was that you are getting way ahead of yourself. By that I mean that a "new heaven and a new earth" does not occur until AFTER the "great earthquake" of Revelation 16:18. Goodness, iirc, we have been watching for this event almost ever since we first started posting; but the time spent in 'watching' has been very rewarding for both of us, I am sure.

Of course, we have discussed many other religious topics throughout the years to the benefit of all who post here on the religious bb's, imho; so we were not always focussing on this event. For me personally, the time spent here has been both both exhilarating and educational.

I think we began to look more seriously at this final apocalyptic event with the 'Road' topics; and then with the remarkable oracle about the "Jubilee Year" occurring this year, 2010, (posted in January on the "White Horses" topic) things began to shape up with more overtures of finality, as the catastrophes and convulsions of the earth increased even more rapidly than in previous years.

The final consummation of all these events occurs with the 'new heaven and new earth' that John sees in his vision as described in Revelation 21; and which is the substance of your new topic. But that vision, too, demands proper interpretation to protect the integrity of Scripture.

So where does that leave me? Hmmmm, should I point to literalism versus symbolism, the mystical versus sound hermeneutics, or the physical versus the spiritual?

Actually, it is all of the above; and actually, with your very first post, I see problems:

quote:

quote: Revelation 21:1-3 (New International Version)

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

This link to Biblos gives parallel translations to the King James Version, specifically verse 3, which reads:

quote:

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Note that the KJV states the 'tabernacle of God' is with men (humans), not the 'dwelling of God'. The Biblos commentaries may give you some idea of the differences in translations; but my commentary states that the "tabernacle of God is with men" is "expressive of His ultimate and perpetual communion with them"; ~~ the word 'tabernacle' being used in the spiritual sense as opposed to the literal sense.

Even though your topic specifically focuses on the "New Jerusalem", my thought is that we need to discern the 'outer' from the 'inner' if we are to be facilitators in bringing in a 'new heaven and earth'.

From my commentary on verse 3:

quote:

In the beginning, communion between man and God was lost and man hid from God. "Where art thou?" called the Lord God. (Gen. 3:9) Through the ages God has been seeking His lost children and endeavoring in one way or another, supremely in Jesus Christ, to repair the broken relationship. After Last Judgment, revelations are made for the New Jerusalem. Communication with God is restored, that is, man [humans] now can understand the Divine Truth of the Word, for all interposing obstacles are removed. (Quoted from pg. 216-217, "The Final Unveiling", ©1984, by Lois Hoover.)

I will take a rest for now and come back to my computer later, okay?

Sela

Sela
Welcome!
Actually my first and main point for this string is the target destination for those souls Paul describes as lifted up instantly, and those gathered by the armies of heaven on their white horses. Presumably the work of these armies is gather all souls to the Judgment Seat.

My commentary says there is much contention about this point. So I have picked up first on the water issue.

Here is an article from 2002 on "A Cool Early Earth", presenting different viewpoints on liquid water. One of these ideas was that the first 500 million years were too hot for liquid water, and thus earned the term "hellish" or Hadean. Water was stored in rock and the atmosphere, a time of "no sea". Presumably heat would have to be applied to the planet to make anew "no sea", so it would be a hot ride to the New Jerusalem. Yet cooling could condense water from the atmophere to the Crystal Sea before the throne, starting the River of Life. I postulate the upper part of the New Jerusalem cube would be a condenser and collector for that water, and it would thus be crystal clear as from a still, before its use for drinking and washing.

Another possibility is that "no sea" refers only to specific bodies of water, like the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galiee. Thus the possibility of global cooling would suggest water stored in glaciers or far removed bodies of water, as well as in extraterrestrial sources, such as in frozen comets and asteroids.

The increasing pollution of water sources on the West Bank of Palestine, as noted earlier, may mean biblical references are to potable water. The Middle Eastern answer to this so far is sea water purification, as opposed to the above design of atmopheric condensation.
This also reduces all the extra heat or cold needed to solidify global surface waters suggested biblically.

Donald

Another aspect of water is foreign waters sold locally.

This reference deals with companies thought to be American, but which are actually foreign owned:
http://www.walletpop.com/blog/...that-arent-american/

Currently my wife and I shop at Trader Joe's, which is currently German owned, and which sells Gerolsteiner Prudel, a heavily mineral water useful to me for food allergies, and of German origin, for almost a dollar less than local American grocery chains. TJ's is growing, and the price is rising slowly.

Modified waters, like beer, and mentioned in the reference, are in the same situation. This article documents Belgian takeover of Budweiser in 2008. I believe Miller was bought by a South African firm earlier. All this just raises the necessity for and continued superior potability of bottled waters. They are also in question because of the plastic containers and chemical leaching.

Donald

There is a note on White Horses about a movie whose plot appears derived from the idea of the crystal sea before the Throne of God in the New Jerusalem. The greater interest was in the riders of the heavenly armies of God.

Donald

There is another source of water, but it is not renewable. That is fossil water, and it is obtained by water mining. That is the designation because these sources of water are not renewed by streams or rain. Since the Bible speaks of a New Heaven and a New Earth, such water would not appear to be a continuing source there either, although its loss might define an end for the present Earth and Heaven.

Donald

quote:

Originally posted by EQ:
Actually my first and main point for this string is the target destination for those souls Paul describes as lifted up instantly

Donald,

Just out of curiosity, you wouldn't be referring to the "Rapture", would you?

Sela

Sela

At some point all souls are gathered before the Throne, as at Ellis Island, for sorting.

I'm not at this point studying how they got there, but 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 is my source.

Donald

quote:

Originally posted by EQ:
Sela

At some point all souls are gathered before the Throne, as at Ellis Island, for sorting.

I'm not at this point studying how they got there, but 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 is my source.

Donald

At this point, decided to respond to the Scripture source you used for your comments, even though this has been debated so many times over the years, both on P* and the Aant Hill, that it would be a challenge to count the times. It is a wonder it is still being promoted even in these dark times when many scholars have said that these are the 'worst times in history', both economically and politically. But, according to popular conservative writers and preachers, Christians would be 'raptured' off the face of the earth to avoid these awful tribulative judgments. Oh, btw, you do know that the "Left Behind" series are fiction, plain and simple, and sold as fiction. But conservatives have made a lot of money promoting fiction.

Have noticed there are still a lot of websites promoting these 'cunningly devised fables'; but, believe it or not, the Truth will surface where least expected.

Here and here are the Bible passages in question:

quote:

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

As you know, these passages are conservative dogmatism for the 'Rapture' teaching promoted by Hal Lindsey, David Wilkerson, and other conservative writers over the years. My books and other writings offer alternative thinking to such sweeping literalism. Now let me tell you what this 'alternative thinking' is!

As it happens, at the time I wrote my autobiography back in the 1960's, I wasn't even aware of such a teaching as the 'Rapture' until I started writing my second book in the early 1980's, about the same time Hal Lindsey's books were published.

As you should know from reading my autobiography, the entire 'night of Revelation' described on pages 50-59 was the' Lord himself descending from heaven with a shout, and a host of voices, and with the trumpet of God', as follows:

quote:

"Suddenly there were voices all round me. Yes, yes, the heavens were opened and the seraphim of angels were singing, and the house was filled with his glory. And I could feel my spirit lifting up." [raptured into heaven] (Quoted from pg. 51, "Clothed With The Sun", written during 1968, ©1979, by Lois Hoover.)

"Suddenly a voice like the sound of a trumpet came unto me, saying, 'Lois you have a purpose in life!'" (Quoted from pg. 57) "As a Thief in the night, He came." (pg. 52)

The entire revelation was a sense of death. Reference was made later on various forums that this was a 'near-death experience'. Books were being published in the 80's and 90's about these type of experiences which gave me a more cultural label for my 'transcendental' phenomenon. Have a number of these NDE books in my book shelf at home.

Also will mention that there are people named in my book who were 'alive' on earth but 'caught up together with Christ to meet the Lord in the air' as testified in my book. The words "the dead in Christ shall rise first" correspond with these words:

quote:

"And lo, rising before me was my sister Yvonne..."

"And I saw my brother standing in the midst of the people." (see pgs.55-56).

All died that night when the 'Rapture' occurred; but at the same time, were alive to be 'caught up together with Christ, and thus SHALL EVER be with the Lord', in this world and the next!

Even though patriarchy has blatantly disregarded my writings because they want to remain the authority and expert on the interpretation of biblical passages forever, it literally doesn't bother me because I AM AT PEACE with the Lord. And, of course, these 'sensation-mongers' promoting the 'rapture theory' show their bias by rejecting a female commentator (filled with the Spirit!) who was chosen to study and learn the TRUTH of the Bible by exposing the FICTION of certain popular biblical writers.

quote:

"In the meantime, we have approached the end of my journey through the tempest and it is time to draw this history to a close. My travels have carried me to a new life; yes, yes, and as my vision gazes into the heavens, I see myself no longer on a bridge, but in a holy place! Yes! A place of religious rapture... and adoration... and joy... and felllowship... and LOVE... and PEACE! O Lord! How I have prayed for this day!

Here, in this place, surrounded by the light of heaven, I survey with wonder and astonishment the truth of the Divine Master, and then, gazing dolefully at the ruins of the world, I say, with one last gasp, It is finished!"

Yes! My book is finished! Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit..." (Quoted from last page of autobiography.)

This post could very well mesh in appropriately with the ride on the "White Horses" but decided to post it here.

Now that this is posted, I will retire for the night.

Love and Peace, Sela

Sela

It was refreshing to read your package of faith.
Yet you live, with a very happy memory that will never be taken from you.

I am confused as to how the Sabbath Millennium is organized, except believers still need to follow Christ Jesus, and to know that angels help him help us.

My spiritual encounter came after the death of my father. While looking for spiritual help I followed biblical advice and prayed for the new birth in the spirit, as in "Ask and you shall receive." Shortly therefter I was born again, with the gift of tongues. That has never left me, and prayer handles my confusions well. I await my crown, whenever, even as I expect to return it to Christ. My joy is in helping seniors with my music, also in church choir, in documenting the physical Earth's perils, and in writing here. I hope to donate again soon.

I too have been busy, but hopefully I can get back to the R&S forum more actively.

Donald

Donald,

Actually, the book is more than a 'package of faith'. It is documented history. Much like the Bible. It illustrates the work of God, and the ways of men.

Cities fall, empires come to nothing, kingdoms fade away as smoke, but we are assured that the gospel of Christ lives forever. The "New Jerusalem" is the place where the Lamb is the center and the glory of God lightens it.

Would like to post more but my husband is off from work the next two days, and he has made plans for us to go to a seminar today.

Sela

Sela

The theme of water is being reinforced by the changing habitat of fishes, penguins, and sea mammals, with a huge die-off of penguins recently reported in Brazil.

Today there was a 5.8M quake on the SW coast of Iran near the Straits of Hormuz.
This continues lesser quake activity in that area.

Maybe Al Gore is being vindicated?

Donald

It appears oil on major bodies of water is becoming a major source of pollution. Here is an article on a major spill into the Yellow Sea off China:

http://www.comcast.net/article....Pipeline.Explosion/

Donald

The History Channel today posted a look at America's decaying infrastructure, including highways and bridges, drinking water, and storm and sewage water. Most of these were built to last 50 years, and are now over that and showing bad need for expensive repair. A good part is a burden of the States, and the whole country is into major budget deficits.

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2...icas-infrastructure/

The graphics were truly amazing, and really suggest your conclusion.

Donald

Donald,

It is very obvious our country is becoming undone in more ways than one. The foundations of America have become undermined, are crumbling to the ground, and a monster called 'Great Babylon' has taken over, as we have been debating for years. But the rebuilding won't start until after the 'great earthquake', remember? This will usher in the New Jerusalem, the New Jubilee, and the New Era for the 144,000! Got it?

In line with your post, this was the headline news for the day about crumbling infrastructure as I logged on.

Hmmm, did you notice who published the photos?

Sela

Sela

I'm looking for next big factor. After viewing the apocalyptic movie 2012, I would guess that the activity of the Sun is ripe for discussion. At present the Sun no longer has days of no activity, and www.spaceweather.com is having fun posting the great photographs from the new satellites.

I think the main solar thesis mentioned early in the film is erroneous, and there is even a Wikipedia site commenting that neutrinos are only active in numbers a fourth of that mentioned.

But, this is the new sunspot cycle, and the Sun is really pokey at getting up to the usual activity for this time in the cycle. I will continue to monitor this at the above web site.
Normally activity would peak about 2012.

Donald

Donald,

While you are monitoring the activities of the sun in the heavens, I will monitor the activities of the Son on earth! (Isn't that exactly what we have been doing for as long as we have been posting messages on these religious debate boards?)

Also should point out that this is what our perception and awareness training has taught us over the years. It is this awareness that makes us understand the PURPOSE of all these things; which, according to this chapter in Revelation, is to bring in a New World, a New Jerusalem!

We, you and I, were put here together on these Internet discussion boards to yell, "Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee!" But how can that happen without ENLIGHTENMENT?!

Think about this! No matter how many tribes of the world have been brought together during these final days to get to know and tolerate each other, everyone is still a prisoner of his or her own tribe! And with the patriarchal church, they are still a prisoner of their own teachings!

What does that tell you?

Sela

Sela

FREE THE SLAVES!

Donald

Donald,

Nice try! But, theologically, everyone is a slave to sin. Thanks to the Internet, here is an easy-to-find sermon on it.

quote:

But the fact is that everyone is a slave to somebody or to something. Some people are enslaved to their work, some are enslaved to things, all their waking thoughts are given over to taking care of what they have and dreaming of how to get more. Some are slaves to habits that dominate their existence [such as alcohol or drugs]. Some are slaves to tempers that control their actions. Some are slaves to sensuality that control their bodies. We are all slaves and we obey these things that enslave us.

Even though the message of sin and redemption has been preached for two thousand years, compare that message with the world today. Has anything changed? Sometimes it boggles the mind to hear people say, "Oh, the Bible is not relevant anymore in today's world." Huh? Unfortunately, this kind of 'slavery to sin' is one of the main elements that destroys a relationship with Christ.

How do you 'free slaves' who have a natural propensity to first think of themselves before maturing into a conscious, co-creative action with others to make positive changes, whether it be politics, culture or gender.

It has been said that partisan politics is at its worst in these 'last days'; culture problems are at its worst ~~ with the illegal immigration issue; women's rights continue to be violated on a daily basis, whether it be domestic, religious or political; and even 'slavery' issues have become headline news with the recent Sherrod case. This doesn't even cover the many other issues, such as pollution of the environment, unending war in Afghanistan, disparity between the rich and the poor, etc.; but these things were all prophesied in the final book of the Bible!

Transformation cannot begin until the right components are put into place, which means to first put MAN in his place ~~ and then let WOMAN take over!

Versteh?

Sela

Sela

Good point on slavery. I was thinking of our Revolutionary War as an example: The Brits brought the slaves and sold them in the U.S. Now it is the drug lords of Mexico exacting a toll for transport, and conniving employers putting the illegals into sweat shops, etc.
The illegals are very limited in their lives, unless they get really lucky.

But, there is a hymn to rally with, "Amazing Grace", written by John Newton, a redeemed slave trader.

Will Obama pardon those potential voters?

Donald