Sean

I am rejuvenating my New Jerusalem string in light of features on History Channel and Arutz-7. In particular the information presented detects a more militant approach to the biblical New Jerusalem, as opposed to the pure democratic way.

Donald

Don,
I'll be reading what you post in New Jerusulem and asking questions. As you know, I can't contribute much, because I know so little.
Seán

Sean

You are welcome to the New Jerusalem subject, and when Judgment is done there it poses the molding of the Saved into the heavenly society, with God as Judge, much like the early government in the Holy Land when the Hebrews gathered by tribe after completion of their Exodus from bondage in Egypt.

If adversely judged souls are preserved in the Lake of Fire, there may be a situation for true democracy, albeit a fluid one.

Donald

quote:

Originally posted by EQ:
Sean

You are welcome to the New Jerusalem subject, and when Judgment is done there it poses the molding of the Saved into the heavenly society, with God as Judge, much like the early government in the Holy Land when the Hebrews gathered by tribe after completion of their Exodus from bondage in Egypt.

If adversely judged souls are preserved in the Lake of Fire, there may be a situation for true democracy, albeit a fluid one.

Donald

Donald,

You are so locked in to your hierarchical, patriarchal mindset you couldn't get out of it if your life depended on it! So you see "Heaven" as an absolute monarchy and "Hell" (the Lake of Fire) as a democracy or possible democracy, huh? Jungian slip alert: I originally typed "demoncracy." That says absolutely nothing about God, but it does say a lot about YOU!

Newsflash: "God" was not the absolute Judge in the early days after the Exodus, before the Israelite monarchy. After the passing of Moses, the leaders of the people were the Judges, who in other cultures would be called the tribal elders. Judaism (or what eventually became Judaism) was still in its pre-patriarchal phase, so the Judges could be either male or female. I also believe Deborah the prophetess was actually a priestess of the Goddess in her warlike aspect.

It never fails to dumbfound me how fundamentalist Christians make up their own "ancient Israel," completely self-referential and with no attempt made to place it into any kind historical context. True, it's extremely difficult to reconstruct the period at this late date, or to make any definitive statements as to what the Israelites actually believed, but you might at least TRY to take archaeology and biblical scholarship into account.

--Linda

Linda

Today on History Channel there was a program on ideas of hell, from Mayas, Mesopotanians, Egptians, Greeks, etc. It was complete with dark caves, lakes of fire, monsters, etc., plus lots of nude people in various states of torture. At least in the Lake of Fire the souls are in a similar state.

I am aware of OT history. So why is there a problem having the person(s) who gave Moses the Ten Commandments being the ultimate Judge? There is an example where a single Man was the ultimate judge, even if he opted out to continue the position (presumably because of age?) in the Promised Land.

Following Obama's example I wish you and yours Happy Hanukah (early).

Donald
P.S. No word from Sela.

quote:

I am aware of OT history. So why is there a problem having the person(s) who gave Moses the Ten Commandments being the ultimate Judge? There is an example where a single Man was the ultimate judge, even if he opted out to continue the position (presumably because of age?) in the Promised Land.

Donald,

Why is there a problem? Because there are much better ideas out there than the monotheistic/monarchical model. Nobody is under any obligation to subscribe to a second or third-rate theology (if that), when there are better ones far more compatible with essential human dignity. Any theology that tries to frighten people into being good with threats of eternal hellfire is basically just a protection racket.

--Linda

     Social classes in the USA are defined primarily in terms of wealth, with small regard for cultural attainments or for ancestry. This seems strange to me but, to facilitate discussion, I will agree to three groups: the Rich, the Middle Class and the Poor. Of these, the Rich have everything they want, the Middle Class is comfortable and the Poor are lucky to
survive.The Occupants see but two groups: The 1% (the Rich) and the 99% (the Rest of Us). From either point of view, in a democracy, there should be a way to eliminate the woes of poverty. I'm fairly sure it can't be accomplished by plundering the rich but I think plentiful, well-paid jobs might do it. I remember good times when there were jobs for anyone who asked. What must we do to restore those good times?
Seán

Sean,

Sorry to be away from this topic for so long. I'll try to answer your last post about social and economic classes in the U.S. later tonight or tomorrow. Right now, though, I want to post the link to Rebecca's most recent blog post. In fact, I'm going to post two links to the same post, and there's a very good reason for that.

My wonderful daughter is now a regular blogger with Tikkun Daily, affiliated with Tikkun Magazine and the Network of Spiritual Progressives. All are the work of Rabbi Michael Lerner, one of the most highly regarded activist rabbis affiliated with the Jewish Renewal Movement. While Tikkun is and always has been (primarily but not exclusively) a progressive Jewish magazine, the Network of Spiritual Progressives was conceived as an interfaith movement from the beginning. The Tikkun Daily blog is heavily weighted in favor of Jewish topics (Israel/Palestine is a perennial one), it also features interfaith bloggers. Rebecca was recruited as their Pagan/ecofeminist blogger, although I'm sure the fact that she's also Jewish doesn't hurt anything. I helped her by proofreading her submissions.

The post is called Murmuration and Occupation - Shutting Down the West Coast Ports.

Be sure to watch the amazing "Murmuration of Starlings" video at the link. I think I can take credit for that too, since I was the one who first brought the video to her attention by email, although as she says it went viral on Facebook and elsewhere. I found it on Democratic Underground, used as a metaphor for the organizational structure of the Occupy movement in much the same way that Rebecca uses it here.

Murmuration and Occupation

I haven't yet commented on her post except on Facebook. I was planning on posting an extended comment on her blog, and then cross-post it on Tikkun Daily if I think it's good enough. After that I'll try to address your last post about social and economic class in the U.S.



--Linda

Linda,
     I greatly enjoyed Rebecca's comparison of murmuration to the mindset of the Occupiers. I was strongly tempted to post a scientific explanation of the mechanics of murmuration, but realized it would damage the analogy to human behavior so, therefore, I refrained. Do I get a gold star? Or just a glare of scorn?
Seán

quote:

Originally posted by Sean:
Linda,
     I greatly enjoyed Rebecca's comparison of murmuration to the mindset of the Occupiers. I was strongly tempted to post a scientific explanation of the mechanics of murmuration, but realized it would damage the analogy to human behavior so, therefore, I refrained. Do I get a gold star? Or just a glare of scorn?
Seán

Sean,

I don't think she would have minded the scientific explanation. I was the one who first brought the murmuration video to her attention, and the little bit of scientific explanation she gave in her post (each starling follows the one next to it) was her first response. She mentioned that in her email to me and on Facebook before she wrote the blog post. But as she says, it's the movement of the entire flock when the birds are separated by hundreds of other birds that is so interesting. The entire movement is coordinated, and one organism, EVEN when some seem to go (or actually do go) in opposite directions. It's extending this metaphor that is difficult and basically why I haven't yet commented on her post.

--Linda

Sean,
I only commented on this part of Rebecca's post:

quote:

Well, it turns out that lemming mass suicide is a myth, which, I’m quite sorry to say, comes from a 1958 Disney documentary that used staged footage showing the poor beasts being launched off of a cliff with a turntable.

"1958 Disney documentary" plus the staged lemming mass suicide immediately suggested a pro-American, anti-communist Cold War message, which is what I wrote about. Since she grew up when the Cold War was winding down and even the Vietnam War was over, I wasn't sure she'd pick up on that. I never saw that documentary, but if I had I would have picked up on the message immediately.

As I told her on the blog, I want to say more but I thought I should say something about what the political and cultural atmosphere of the period felt like, saturated with anti-communist messages and paranoia.

--Linda

Sean

Here is a web site on the "murmuration of starlings":
http://www.wjla.com/blogs/weat...on-video--13504.html

It makes me wonder if it is a way to keep living arial masses together. How about angels?

Donald

Linda.
     Just to make sure, I checked with Snopes. Sure enough, lemmings are not suicidal and the Disney film portraying their mass suicide was an elaborate fabrication. It fooled a lot of people for no apparent reason; I was one of the deluded.
Seán

I never imagined I would live to see this.
Seán

quote:

Originally posted by Sean:
I never imagined I would live to see this.
Seán

From your link:

quote:

The Kremlin's rights panel also called for the resignation of the election chief on Saturday in a statement about what it called "discredited" polls that have sparked mass demonstrations.

Recommendations by the panel - which advises Medvedev on rights and social issues - are not binding but will add to pressure on the authorities for radical changes in the wake of the polls.

It said that there was "mass distrust of the poll results" which showed significantly diminished support for Vladimir Putin's United Russia party, but still gave it a majority in parliament.

The Kremlin panel added that new election laws should be put in place "with the aim of then calling snap elections" to replace the current parliament that met for its first session on Wednesday.

"Numerous reports of ballot stuffing, re-writing of protocols of ballot results, an unjustified removal of observers and journalists [from polling stations], a ban on photography and video recording and other violations of electoral rights as well as inexplicable paradoxes of electoral statistics lead to mass distrust of the poll results," the panel's statement said.

It's perfectly understandable why the Russians are out in the streets...I'd be pissed off too! In fact, it all sounds depressingly familiar.

--Linda

     I've been reading Of Human Bondage by Somerset Maugham after downloading it to my computer, free of charge, from Project Gutenberg. Long ago, when I first read it, I was too young to read between the lines what now is baldly evident. The story's good enough to hold attention but the present value of the book is that it gives the reader a basis for comparing the poverty of a century ago with what we call poverty today.
Seán

quote:

Linda.
Just to make sure, I checked with Snopes. Sure enough, lemmings are not suicidal and the Disney film portraying their mass suicide was an elaborate fabrication. It fooled a lot of people for no apparent reason; I was one of the deluded.
Seán

Lemmings don't jump off cliffs in large numbers? Score one for democracy!

quote:

Originally posted by También:

quote:

Linda.
Just to make sure, I checked with Snopes. Sure enough, lemmings are not suicidal and the Disney film portraying their mass suicide was an elaborate fabrication. It fooled a lot of people for no apparent reason; I was one of the deluded.
Seán

Lemmings don't jump off cliffs in large numbers? Score one for democracy!

Hey Tambien!

Great to see you back here again! I've been AWOL from this forum for the past week or so because I've been preoccupied with another forum. Promptly got myself into a flame war there, and it was NOT my idea. It was actually a turf war if you want to technical, and she started it!

Hope you've been enjoying this topic. It's long and it kind of wanders all over the place, but it's interesting. Lots and lots of changes this past year!

--Linda

quote:

Hey Tambien!

Great to see you back here again! I've been AWOL from this forum for the past week or so because I've been preoccupied with another forum. Promptly got myself into a flame war there, and it was NOT my idea. It was actually a turf war if you want to technical, and she started it!

Hope you've been enjoying this topic. It's long and it kind of wanders all over the place, but it's interesting. Lots and lots of changes this past year!

--Linda

Good to hear from you too. I visit the religion and computer boards mostly. Lately I visit the democracy thread and skim the computer boards and I'm done.

quote:

Originally posted by También:

quote:

Hey Tambien!

Great to see you back here again! I've been AWOL from this forum for the past week or so because I've been preoccupied with another forum. Promptly got myself into a flame war there, and it was NOT my idea. It was actually a turf war if you want to technical, and she started it!

Hope you've been enjoying this topic. It's long and it kind of wanders all over the place, but it's interesting. Lots and lots of changes this past year!

--Linda

Good to hear from you too. I visit the religion and computer boards mostly. Lately I visit the democracy thread and skim the computer boards and I'm done.

Tambien,

Sorry I flaked out on you again, but I'm in the middle of a new blog post that promises to be longer and more ambitious than anything I've done before. Hopefully I'll be finished with it and get it posted tomorrow, and then I should surface again.

--Linda

Everyone,

Again I apologize for my long absence from the Anthill, but I seem to have gotten myself in over my head on another discussion board. But there are some things I'd rather post here on the Anthill, and my daughter's most recent essay for Tikkun magazine is one of them. Every time I say to her, "this is your best one yet!" she manages to top herself with her next one.

Moving Beyond Occupation into Presence: Decolonizing Our Minds, Hearts, and Spirits

This essay doesn't appear in the print edition of Tikkun but in the online supplement.

quote:

but I seem to have gotten myself in over my head

Take two aspirin...

Raksha, I read the article and its a very powerful telling that helps remove the media's mishandling of Occupy. I should pick up a copy of Tikkun. I've seen it in the library.