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Is It Time for an Atheist on the Supreme Court?
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JohnT
quote:
Which may or may not describe Tambien's general orientation.
I thought we were talking about you and being a deist? Someone once told me about 15 years ago that Thomas Jefferson (of the USA) was a deist, but since I'm not naturally open minded I didn't look into it very deeply. At the time, the concept seemed wildly strange. It seemed to me thinly veiled atheism and perhaps satan attempting to steal Christians. This was at the time an intelligent and logical deduction given my background, although my background has since changed. I understand two things at a time and perhaps their combination. Every force I divide into vectors, two or three, to simulate comprehension but cannot really have it. Everything I know depends upon where I am and so is not reliable in other places. So now I respect Deists for the quality that they have which is a point of view that I can't see, since I'm standing in another place.


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The sun now rose upon the right: Out of the sea came he, Still hid in mist, and on the left Went down into the sea.

 
Posts: 191 | Location: Raleigh NC USA | Mbr Since: 11-14-2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Someone once told me about 15 years ago that Thomas Jefferson (of the USA) was a deist, but since I'm not naturally open minded I didn't look into it very deeply.
Jefferson's religion is difficult to pin to any particular doctrine.

quote:
President Thomas Jefferson was a Protestant. Jefferson was raised as an Episcopalian (Anglican). He was also influenced by English Deists and has often been identified by historians as a Deist. He held many beliefs in common with Unitarians of the time period, and sometimes wrote that he thought the whole country would become Unitarian. He wrote that the teachings of Jesus contain the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." Wrote: "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Source: "Jefferson's Religious Beliefs", by Rebecca Bowman, Monticello Research Department, August 1997 [URL: http://www.monticello.org/reso...rests/religion.html].

Although Jefferson was never an atheist, he was indeed a champion of religious freedom, and the "Positive Atheism" website has a page of quotes by Jefferson at:
http://www.positiveatheism.org.../quotes/jefframe.htm
Source:
http://www.adherents.com/peopl...homas_Jefferson.html

That site says Jefferson was never an atheist, but I think he became an atheist in later life whether he used the term or not. Here are some quotes:

quote:
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp July 30, 1816, denouncing the doctrine of the Trinity and suggesting it to be so riddled in falsehood that only an authoritarian figure could decipher its meaning and, with a firm grip on people's spiritual and mental freedoms, thus convince the people of its truthfulness

Of publishing a book on religion, my dear sir, I never had an idea. I should as soon think of writing for the reformation of Bedlam, as of the world of religious sects. Of these there must be, at least, ten thousand, every individual of every one of which believes all wrong but his own.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Rev Charles Clay, rector of Jefferson's parish church in Albemarle County, Va., January 29, 1815

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise ... without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisfied, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823, quoted from James A Haught, "Breaking the Last Taboo" (1996)

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy, nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.... what has no meaning admits no explanation.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Alexander Smyth, January 17, 1825

We find in the writings of his biographers ... a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstitions, fanaticisms and fabrications.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to William Short, August 4, 1822, referring to Jesus's biographers, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

That sect had presented for the object of their worship, a being of terrific character, cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust.
-- Thomas Jefferson, referring to the god of the Jews under Moses, in his letter to William Short (August 4, 1822)

See:
http://www.positiveatheism.org...quotes/jefferson.htm

Jeff
 
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Deism:
    [1] Belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism).
    [2] Belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.
    This from Webster's Unabridged Dictionary. When you say deist you should specify which meaning you intend. From the quotations CompGuy has cited Jefferson is better described by definition [1] if he believed in God at all, which remains uncertain.
Seán
 
Posts: 4234 | Location: Albuquerque, NM | Mbr Since: 09-22-2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Jeff:
quote:
That site says Jefferson was never an atheist, but I think he became an atheist in later life whether he used the term or not. Here are some quotes:

Maybe maybe not. I have agreed with most of his above statements and I'm not purely atheist. Jefferson may have thought that the gospels were mythical and still been a christian, albeit not a typical one. I personally think the gospels were openly understood to be mythical at the time they were written. Why not, and what is wrong with that? It doesn't preclude that Jefferson had rejected Jesus if he thought so. He also could still be a deist too, though it doesn't sound like it.


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The sun now rose upon the right: Out of the sea came he, Still hid in mist, and on the left Went down into the sea.

 
Posts: 191 | Location: Raleigh NC USA | Mbr Since: 11-14-2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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President Thomas Jefferson was a Protestant. Jefferson was raised as an Episcopalian (Anglican). He was also influenced by English Deists and has often been identified by historians as a Deist. He held many beliefs in common with Unitarians of the time period, and sometimes wrote that he thought the whole country would become Unitarian.

Jeff and everyone,

The whole country would have been one hell of a lot better off if it HAD become Unitarian! I don't even have to imagine that; I'm absolutely convinced of it. None of this "salvation by faith" b.s. I really and truly LOATHE that notion! I totally hate it. Salvation (if such a thing even exists) is by works ONLY. Period. That's what Judaism teaches and what I also believe.

But the best thing of all--and from a moral standpoint the safest thing--is a personal commitment to justice for its own sake, with no expectation of reward or fear of punishment. It's next to impossible to get Christians to understand this, because they are conditioned to believe certain things on a reward/punishment basis. Many of them can't understand how anyone else could be motivated to do good on any other basis, as proven once again by Sela and Donald on the "White Horses" topic.

But the opposite seems to be the way it works out in real life. If your main motivation is avoiding punishment, you are then tempted to bargain with God, the same way you tried to weasel out of the consequences of your actions when you were a little kid. So then you shortchange or violate your own conscience--assuming you even HAVE a conscience, i.e. an innate and active sense of right and wrong.

But then it's amazing (or maybe it isn't!) how people adopt the beliefs that are most convenient to their own egotism and lust for power. If the former colonists had all become Unitarians, it would have been impossible for them to justify the genocide and oppression of the Indians and the wholesale theft of their land. But the Calvinist notion of salvation served the purpose of rationalization quite admirably. After all, if people are predestined for hell anyway, it doesn't make much difference if they go there now or later.

--Linda


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The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.”
― Frank Zappa
 
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He wrote that the teachings of Jesus contain the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man."

And they do! Too bad so many Christians ignore the teachings OF Jesus and prefer to focus on the writings of Paul the Mythmaker, the inventor of the cult ABOUT Jesus.


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The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.”
― Frank Zappa
 
Posts: 18257 | Location: So. Calif., USA | Mbr Since: 03-12-2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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True people can adopt beliefs that are convenient to their egotism and lust for power; but I really think that is not the case. More like many people, being weak, were betrayed. I totally agree with you about the salvation by faith being horrific.

Mostly I agree with you but I think deception by the few has a lot more to do with this lie than broad willing cooperation with evil. 'Faith' as interpreted by protestantism is a mistranslation of 'Faith-fullness' or 'Steadfastness'. You can see this clearly where Romans 1:17 quotes the prophet Habakkuk 2:4. "And the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. YLT" The word 'Steadfastness' there has become 'Faith' in many modern Christian NT's, partly because of changes in the English language since the KJV was translated. Partly it is because evil people (or just uncaring leeches) have used it to support evil ministries. I'm trying to point out that this is mostly a deception by the educated. Yes, its the responsibility of the minions too; but the world is not quite as dark as to imply that we all adopt the convenient belief according to lust for power. Really that is too dismal to contemplate. The system is definitely broke though.


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Posts: 191 | Location: Raleigh NC USA | Mbr Since: 11-14-2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A couple things should perhaps be noted. One, that the Greek text says here 'pistis', which is indeed "faith, belief, trust"--but also translated as "faithfulness" in other places such as Romans 3:3 and Galatians 5:22. And two, that a slightly fuller quotation of the original verse is made in Hebrews 10:38, which in context indicates that this "faith" is an active thing, contrasted with "draw[ing] back", and not merely a religious opinion or a "once saved always saved" rest on one's laurels kind of faith.
--
Stephen
 
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Stephen, that's very scholarly and helpful info. You are right, too. The Greek word is a lot more vague, but the NT letters are only supposed to be commentaries on the Tanach. Its supposed to be obvious that to understand the letters you've got to be familiar with the source materials, but for some reason it hasn't been.

The problem goes way beyond the mere translational issues but to the fact that it was so easy for Christians to completely misinterpret it -- even though it is 2000 years later. I think that is one reason why Dr. Maccoby put Paul in the title of his book Paul the Mythmaker. The main force of his book actually is to remove slander from the Pharisees, however Paul gets called on the carpet. Maccoby says right up front that he's not dealing with issues of whether Paul is real but assumes he is and takes his letters as historical documents. Whoever or whatever Paul is, this one misunderstanding has caused almost unmeasurable damage to a lot of people's lives. Actually, Paul represents the whole of Christianity, and it is being called on the carpet for letting this happen. Accurate transmission is considered part of the responsibility of the teacher, even after thousands of years. If its something that is going to be misunderstood, than a wise teacher makes preparations for that occurrence. The central problem is that such misunderstandings occur yet Paul described his own work by saying: "I laid a foundation as an expert builder" I can see how this might have goaded a rabbi.

(What does it have to do with atheists and the supreme court? I don't remember anymore.)


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The sun now rose upon the right: Out of the sea came he, Still hid in mist, and on the left Went down into the sea.

 
Posts: 191 | Location: Raleigh NC USA | Mbr Since: 11-14-2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Jefferson was either a Deist or a Unitarian; it's a matter of interpretation. He clearly rejected the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and denied that Jesus was divine.

Jefferson sometimes described himself as a true Christian, but that's because he believed that the majority of Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant Christians, who accepted the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, had it all wrong. He thought that the original unitarian Christianity had been corrupted in the early centuries by combining its doctrines with Platonism.

Jefferson did a cut and paste job on the Gospels, which anticipated the Higher Criticism, and which he entitled The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth. He cut out all of the supernatural elements, including the Resurrection.

It's time for an atheist on the Supreme Court. In fact, we need at least two of them, or perhaps one atheist and one agnostic.


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Newt Gingrich for President, Ron Paul for Vice President

Legalize Heroin on the Moon!
 
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