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https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/augustine/

quote:
...The problem that plagues our condition is not that we are trapped in the visible world (as it is for the Manicheans); rather, it is a more subtle problem of perception and will: we are prone to view things materialistically and hence unaware that the sensible world is but a tiny portion of what is real [Confessions IV.xv.24], an error Augustine increasingly attributes to original sin...

With respect to Augustine's desire to find a viable alternative to the awkward and intractable moral dualism of the Manicheans, there can be little question that his embracing of Neoplatonism is a positive development. Not only does it allow him to account for evil without substantializing it, but it also provides him with a unified account of the moral drama that constitutes the human condition. Even so, this metaphysical architectonic is prone to tensions of its own, some of which lend themselves to a kind of moral dualism not altogether unlike that of the Manicheans...


Astrocat asked about Zorastrianism dualism's effect on Augustine via Judaism and I responded with this:

quote:
Well Augustine was into Manichaeism which picked up some Zoroastrianism ideas but Augustine ended up quite against Manichaeism though he essentially kept some Manichaeism ideas via still liking Neoplatonism. Plus Greek philosophy goes back to Zoroastrianism itself via Pythagoras. It's kind of like all roads lead back to Zorastrianism not just mainstream Judeo-Christianity. Some roads just went too far in thinking of physical as evil instead of as an environment for hands on learning about hospitality.

Greeks and Jews were very much into the concept of hospitality aka making choices thinking about others more than self. The idea is that violations of hospitality literally bring cataclysms and the fall from Eden was likely the original hospitality violating cataclysm that messed up our golden age (with the gods/goddesses/angels) and put us into a survival of the fittest competitive environment which certainly could select for more selfish traits but it's a hands on learning school not an evil place. Angels could book learn us for these things but learn on your own has benefits.


Our interface with Edenic/Golden age things is certainly through the mind but how do we do that? A response I made earlier today:

quote:
Well chochma-bina-da'at correspond to the Gurdjieff higher centers/chakras and a Shekinah 2 or 3 (or better yet a Gurdjieff 200) gathered in my name connection of Chakras could do/know lots of things like Maruts bringing down baskets manna from heaven-like. The Sephirot have a nice Spin(5) math symmetry as does Gurdjieff's Enneagram...
 
Posts: 1149 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
What's going on???

You lot fallen asleep?

Seems it is time for me to crack the whip.



I think people migrated back to Ammy because it is more familiar.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.”
 
Posts: 66 | Location: PacNorthwest | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by robinhood:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
What's going on???

You lot fallen asleep?

Seems it is time for me to crack the whip.



I think people migrated back to Ammy because it is more familiar.


I actually prefer the format here, but Mary Jean wasn't comfortable with it and had already left. Then she started making noises about leaving Amazon for lack of anyone to interact with.

And y'all know I've got me a soft spot for her... And lately I just don't have the time for even one forum, never mind both. Then wouldn't you know, as soon as I sign back up on Ammy, I get caught up on the "I went to a fundie church' thread, defending gays against charges of 'Biblical sin'. Sheesh!

Really do wish she felt more comfortable here.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

Then wouldn't you know, as soon as I sign back up on Ammy, I get caught up on the "I went to a fundie church' thread, defending gays against charges of 'Biblical sin'.


And what verses are they using?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.”
 
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Jean J. says:
robb,
Tell Allan on the other pub that Original sin or propensity to sin began at Genesis 3:6.
JJ


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.”
 
Posts: 66 | Location: PacNorthwest | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by robinhood:
Jean J. says:
robb,
Tell Allan on the other pub that Original sin or propensity to sin began at Genesis 3:6.
JJ



Thanks, mate.

Perhaps I should not tell her that the Abrahamic deity did not put in an appearance until about 4000 years ago, tens of thousands of years after our world was well on its way???? No sinners until then, I take it.

Don't know if you saw my post on a different version of the creation of the Abrahamic religion?

Seems Abram's father was not merely an idol-maker. In this version he also was a close, seemingly personal, advisor to his king. The story is identical in detail to that of the story of the birth of Jesus. A mysterious movement of a "star" was interpreted as signalling the birth of a boy who would be a direct threat to Abram's king, leading to perhaps the first Slaughter of the Innocents http://www.chabad.org/library/...mrod-and-Abraham.htm

The Jews seem reluctant to name this king; instead, in typical fashion, they applied the pejorative nickname Nimrod, which means rebel.

But who can a king rebel against? Himself?

Seems to me the actual Nimrod was Abraham himself, who, we are told, did indeed rebel against his appointed king.

Yet again we see the Jews rewriting history. Will be reading more, however this looks like a typical adoption and adaptation of the then well-known Sumerian legends, including the pre-flood (Woolley's riverine flood) king list.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by robinhood:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

Then wouldn't you know, as soon as I sign back up on Ammy, I get caught up on the "I went to a fundie church' thread, defending gays against charges of 'Biblical sin'.


And what verses are they using?


Well, we got the typical "Biblical scripture calls for stoning."

To head off any attempt for them to use the typical NT scriptures of Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and 1 Timothy 1:9-10, I refuted their usual misinterpretation of the wording.

But of course, the hardcore bigots will hear none of it.

The thread is only 8 pages long and has probably already run its course. You might want to read through it. Feel free to use any of my postings for future reference if you care to.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by robinhood:
Jean J. says:
robb,
Tell Allan on the other pub that Original sin or propensity to sin began at Genesis 3:6.
JJ



Don't know if you saw my post on a different version of the creation of the Abrahamic religion?

Seems Abram's father was not merely an idol-maker. In this version he also was a close, seemingly personal, advisor to his king. The story is identical in detail to that of the story of the birth of Jesus. A mysterious movement of a "star" was interpreted as signalling the birth of a boy who would be a direct threat to Abram's king, leading to perhaps the first Slaughter of the Innocents http://www.chabad.org/library/...mrod-and-Abraham.htm

The Jews seem reluctant to name this king; instead, in typical fashion, they applied the pejorative nickname Nimrod, which means rebel.


IMHO, and I've said it before, there does seem to be missing pieces in our canonized Scriptures...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
A mysterious movement of a "star" was interpreted as signalling the birth of a boy who would be a direct threat to Abram's king, leading to perhaps the first Slaughter of the Innocents http://www.chabad.org/library/...mrod-and-Abraham.htm

The Jews seem reluctant to name this king; instead, in typical fashion, they applied the pejorative nickname Nimrod, which means rebel.

But who can a king rebel against? Himself? Seems to me the actual Nimrod was Abraham himself, who, we are told, did indeed rebel against his appointed king.

Yet again we see the Jews rewriting history. Will be reading more, however this looks like a typical adoption and adaptation of the then well-known Sumerian legends, including the pre-flood (Woolley's riverine flood) king list.


I've seen the idea that Ninurta-Nimrod was a comet fragment who rebelled against his parent giant comet (Enlil) who sent a deluge (tsunami).
 
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

The thread is only 8 pages long and has probably already run its course. You might want to read through it. Feel free to use any of my postings for future reference if you care to.


Forum? Thread name?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.”
 
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[/QUOTE]I've seen the idea that Ninurta-Nimrod was a comet fragment who rebelled against his parent giant comet (Enlil) who sent a deluge (tsunami).[/QUOTE]

I'm still looking for that one, however it reminds me of https://archive.org/stream/Myt...MythGeology_djvu.txt
We really do need to take mythology seriously and see where it fits into not just geology but also astronomy, history, and so on.

Keep coming back to the same point; there is nothing at all new in the Tanakh. It is all copied from other cultures.

Another thing studiously ignored by many Abrahamic believers is the historical fact that the first empire was a Semitic one, that of Sargon the Great in Akkad. That was followed later by the Semitic empire of Mari, which is seen by some Jewish sources as the exact model in many important ways for the much later Canaanite Hebrews.

I was instructed by one Ultra-Orthodox Jew there were NO Hebrews or Jews before Abram :-)

This rather deflates his argument: Search Results
Proto-Semitic is the hypothetical proto-language ancestral to historical Semitic languages of the Middle East. Places which have been proposed for its original Urheimat include northern Mesopotamia, the Arabian Peninsula, and the Levant, with a 2009 study proposing that it may have originated about 3800 BC.
Proto-Semitic language - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Semitic_language
 
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quote:
Originally posted by robinhood:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

The thread is only 8 pages long and has probably already run its course. You might want to read through it. Feel free to use any of my postings for future reference if you care to.


Forum? Thread name?


Amazon Christianity Forum
"I went to a Fundy church today and didn't burst into flames"


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Another thing studiously ignored by many Abrahamic believers is the historical fact that the first empire was a Semitic one, that of Sargon the Great in Akkad. That was followed later by the Semitic empire of Mari, which is seen by some Jewish sources as the exact model in many important ways for the much later Canaanite Hebrews.


Yeah Sargon to Mari/Qatna down to Cyrus the Great sounds about right.
 
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by robinhood:
quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
What's going on???

You lot fallen asleep?

Seems it is time for me to crack the whip.



I think people migrated back to Ammy because it is more familiar.


It has been interesting that way, and yes after getting a window open here it isn't easy to close, sometimes, especially with fat fingers!
 
Posts: 12685 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
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quote:
It has been interesting that way, and yes after getting a window open here it isn't easy to close, sometimes, especially with fat fingers!

Reed and everyone,

Today a lot of us who use Chrome or Safari browsers have been getting security warnings about malware on Aantares. I sent a message to *CJ, the Aantares admin, and this was her response:

You guys arent the first to get this... Chrome and Safari browsers have been reporting it fir the last 24-36 hours.

The warning is a hypersensitive browser warning. Just go ahead and PROCEED thru the warning and it'll go away. I promise the only thing that Aantares is dropping on anyone's system are time/date cookies.


I just took her advice and proceeded through the warnings (two of them) to get to this page. Fools rush in time, I know. Smile   :)

Now let's see which happens first - either the warnings go away or my computer melts down. Or maybe neither.


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That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. --P.C. Hodgell
 
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Linds,
Are you here?
 
Posts: 12685 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
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@Reed:

Yeah, I just got here. Still getting that damn security warning every time I go from one page to another.

--Linda


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That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. --P.C. Hodgell
 
Posts: 18702 | Location: So. Calif., USA | Mbr Since: 03-12-2004Report This Post
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quote:
I was instructed by one Ultra-Orthodox Jew there were NO Hebrews or Jews before Abram :-)

Allan,

I think I can make an educated guess who that ultra-Orthodox Jew was. :-)
quote:
This rather deflates his argument: Search Results
Proto-Semitic is the hypothetical proto-language ancestral to historical Semitic languages of the Middle East. Places which have been proposed for its original Urheimat include northern Mesopotamia, the Arabian Peninsula, and the Levant, with a 2009 study proposing that it may have originated about 3800 BC.
Proto-Semitic language - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Semitic_language

It's funny but until you mentioned it, it never occurred to me there could be a proto-Semitic language, even though there obviously had to be. I just kind of mentally checked them off: Let's see now... there's Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic...

Sure, I knew Sumerian and Babylonian had to be Semitic languages (didn't Aramaic originate in Babylonia?), but they were always kind of off my radar screen. I haven't checked out your link yet and can't get to it until tomorrow, but I'm looking forward to learning more about it.

--Linda


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. --P.C. Hodgell
 
Posts: 18702 | Location: So. Calif., USA | Mbr Since: 03-12-2004Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Raksha:
@Reed:

Yeah, I just got here. Still getting that damn security warning every time I go from one page to another.

--Linda


I hear that. I went back to the tablet, because op I didn't like the unsecured login.
 
Posts: 12685 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
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So am I the only one not getting a warning? Two different computers, two different browsers (or 3): Opera, Opera Neon and Edge.

I have gotten those warnings in the past for other sites/pages so I know my security catches them.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.”
 
Posts: 66 | Location: PacNorthwest | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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