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Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
In reading Paul, what comes across to me about character development, is that he very much promoted the idea of mutual support, equality, networking and, most of all, love, and that these things would lead to the formation of a sort of super human, or cosmic human, that would inhabit a "new creation". It was a variation on the "Son of Man" theme from Daniel and Enoch. In Daniel, the "Son of Man" was contrasted to the "Beasts" - he describes his visions "one like a beast having... blah blah..." and "One like a son of Man", so you know that they are sort of in the same category as cosmic phenomena.

One COULD suggest that what he was describing, or attempting to create, was what Ra called a "Social Memory Complex" or what the Cs might call a 4D being, a network where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And this Christ that Paul picked to be his figurehead was the "first fruits" of the process of this creation of a new, semi-physical world - the "New Adam" who was in the new creation/reality and should be acting as the template for the new humanity known collectively as the Son of Man. In short, sort of like Gurdjieff's attempt to create a group of 200 awakened individuals to change the course of history and stave off the destruction of mankind. It seems that this may have also been on Paul's mind.

So, for Paul, this "character development" was essentially assimilating to the Son of Man.

That makes sense to me, but I think Peter said it best:

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light..." (1 Peter 2:9).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by bryan:
Lois might drop in over the next day or so depending on technical details.

Now that would be nice!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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Guys,
Received another email from Mary Jean. She has made contact with Steve. She is excited that Steve may be moving close enough to her to visit!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Guys,
Received another email from Mary Jean. She has made contact with Steve. She is excited that Steve may be moving close enough to her to visit!


Oh, WOW! That would be great! I had no idea he was that serious about moving. Now she just needs Allan to come visit and she’ll have all of her beaus?
 
Posts: 12685 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Guys,
Received another email from Mary Jean. She has made contact with Steve. She is excited that Steve may be moving close enough to her to visit!


Oh, WOW! That would be great! I had no idea he was that serious about moving. Now she just needs Allan to come visit and she’ll have all of her beaus?

Both Mary Jean and Steve have daughters live in WA/OR area. Ain't that nice!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Oh, WOW! That would be great! I had no idea he was that serious about moving. Now she just needs Allan to come visit and she’ll have all of her beaus?


Just received my invite in today's email.

Wouldn't it be great!
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

JR: You are mixing apples and oranges. There is no claim of divine revelation regarding Moses and creation nor the flood in the Bible. What people believe doesn't change that fact.


Clearly my pedantry has betrayed me. I was thinking that if God came down personally to reveal to Noah there was a global flood on its way, or revealed personally to Moses how Creation came into being, those would have been divine enough revelations?

So what does qualify as a divine revelation?

JR: Whereas you use the term "devout", I use the term "Hezekiah/Josiah sect." CLEARLY there were Jews who believed in a revelation that showed that there was a rebellion, and that belief aligns them with the older religion and doesn't in any way diminish their devoutness.

What sort of revelation was that, exactly?

Especially given that Tiamat's was the only known rebellion.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Oh, WOW! That would be great! I had no idea he was that serious about moving. Now she just needs Allan to come visit and she’ll have all of her beaus?


Just received my invite in today's email.

Wouldn't it be great!


It’s a long long flight! It can be found reasonably priced, at times, but the length doesn’t get shorter!

Glad she sent you an invite too!
 
Posts: 12685 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:

JR: You are mixing apples and oranges. There is no claim of divine revelation regarding Moses and creation nor the flood in the Bible. What people believe doesn't change that fact.


Clearly my pedantry has betrayed me. I was thinking that if God came down personally to reveal to Noah there was a global flood on its way, or revealed personally to Moses how Creation came into being, those would have been divine enough revelations?

There is no account given for a visionary experience regarding Noah and the flood, nor Moses and creation.

quote:
So what does qualify as a divine revelation?

A description of the visionary experience.

quote:
JR: Whereas you use the term "devout", I use the term "Hezekiah/Josiah sect." CLEARLY there were Jews who believed in a revelation that showed that there was a rebellion, and that belief aligns them with the older religion and doesn't in any way diminish their devoutness.

Allan: What sort of revelation was that, exactly?

Especially given that Tiamat's was the only known rebellion.

Merkabah/Hekhalot visions.

You absolutely refuse to consider the difficulties of these visions of the infinite being translated in the verbiage of finite humans. First, they must be translated by the recipient's limited understanding and linguistic skills, then into language understandable to the audience, and thirdly into language sufficient to depict the majesty of an otherworldly encounter.

When witnesses of the same accident are queried by the police, their accounts are never exactly the same. How could you possibly expect an accounting of 2 separate, even if identical, Merkabah experiences to be the same?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Guys,
Received another email from Mary Jean. She has made contact with Steve. She is excited that Steve may be moving close enough to her to visit!


Oh, WOW! That would be great! I had no idea he was that serious about moving. Now she just needs Allan to come visit and she’ll have all of her beaus?

I'm hoping that it happens, especially for Steve's sake. It would be nice for him to be closer to his daughters.

And yeah, Miz Mary would be beside herself if Allan should be able to visit!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Atlanta | Mbr Since: 05-01-2017Report This Post
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Picture of Reed N D Dark
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
Guys,
Received another email from Mary Jean. She has made contact with Steve. She is excited that Steve may be moving close enough to her to visit!


Oh, WOW! That would be great! I had no idea he was that serious about moving. Now she just needs Allan to come visit and she’ll have all of her beaus?

I'm hoping that it happens, especially for Steve's sake. It would be nice for him to be closer to his daughters.

And yeah, Miz Mary would be beside herself if Allan should be able to visit!


One of the problems of coming to the US that the Aussies repeatedly point out is the cost of health care if they need it. They’re giving list price numbers, not negotiated fees!
 
Posts: 12685 | Location: Central PA | Mbr Since: 05-14-2017Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
Clearly my pedantry has betrayed me. I was thinking that if God came down personally to reveal to Noah there was a global flood on its way, or revealed personally to Moses how Creation came into being, those would have been divine enough revelations?

So what does qualify as a divine revelation?


Noah and Moses do not read like they are written about guys who's main talent is Zoroaster-like channeling. Noah reads more like a fable about a guy with building as the main talent. To the extent it's loosely based on someone real, the revealing talent doesn't seem much better than my dream about 9-11 before 9-11.

Moses seems more general/king-like than Zoroaster-like. If Moses references more than just thinking he had God on his side; it seems more like literally running into an alien (and alien "ark" technology) than channeling.

quote:
What sort of revelation was that, exactly?

Especially given that Tiamat's was the only known rebellion.


Tiamat-like legends are everywhere:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...osmogony)#Chaoskampf

quote:
The motif of Chaoskampf (German: [ˈkaːɔsˌkampf], "struggle against chaos") is ubiquitous in myth and legend, depicting a battle of a culture hero deity with a chaos monster, often in the shape of a serpent or dragon. The same term has also been extended to parallel concepts in the religions of the ancient Near East, such as the abstract conflict of ideas in the Egyptian duality of Maat and Isfet.[citation needed]

The origins of the Chaoskampf myth most likely lie in the Proto-Indo-European religion whose descendants almost all feature some variation of the story of a storm god fighting a sea serpent representing the clash between the forces of order and chaos. Early work by German academics such as Gunkel and Bousset in comparative mythology popularized translating the mythological sea serpent as a "dragon." Indo-European examples of this mythic trope include Thor vs. Jörmungandr (Norse), Tarḫunz vs. Illuyanka (Hittite), Indra vs. Vritra (Vedic), Θraētaona vs. Aži Dahāka (Avestan) and Zeus vs. Typhon (Greek) among others. Non-Indo-European examples of this trope are Susano'o vs. Yamata no Orochi (Japanese) and Mwindo vs. Kirimu (African)...

See also... Tiamat...


For me this is ancient comet fragment thunderbolt/storm attacks like the the Evenk clan Agdy god of thunder and his thunderbirds for Tunguska. Lucifer as a torch carrier at dawn for impressive passing earth sun-diving comets (before the later much less impressive use for Venus) still has this motif but also relates to past "Son of Man-God-Most High" status for us before falling from that perch in the past. Enoch/Daniel provide the Son of Man theme in a more revealed less ancient story-like way. Paul picks up on the general idea of returning to Christ-like Son of God status as a new creation.
 
Posts: 1149 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
Devoted...
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quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
One of the problems of coming to the US that the Aussies repeatedly point out is the cost of health care if they need it. They’re giving list price numbers, not negotiated fees!

Yeah, something that rather annoys me.

When I was hospitalized a year and half ago, it was the first time for me under Medicare. To this day I have no idea what the actual amount paid to the hospital was because my insurance negotiated the charges down with Medicare and reduced my portion of the payment - which turned out to be a whopping $220.00 for a $10,000.00 hospital bill!!! And $100 of that was for ambulance transport. The rest was for a redundant test performed at the second hospital (I was moved to a second hospital for the stent procedure).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
Noah and Moses do not read like they are written about guys who's main talent is Zoroaster-like channeling. Noah reads more like a fable about a guy with building as the main talent. To the extent it's loosely based on someone real, the revealing talent doesn't seem much better than my dream about 9-11 before 9-11.

That's pretty much how I'm seeing it.

9-11 dream, huh? I've heard of a couple of other people who had such dreams. One said it looked much like a collage of airplanes and buildings on fire while the other saw planes flying into buildings and another crashing to the ground.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fence straddlers get a crotch full of splinters -- Granny
 
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Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Glad she sent you an invite too!


Can you imagine it, all of us together?

Mary Jean's neighbours would never get to sleep.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by That JR Thang:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
One of the problems of coming to the US that the Aussies repeatedly point out is the cost of health care if they need it. They’re giving list price numbers, not negotiated fees!

Yeah, something that rather annoys me.

When I was hospitalized a year and half ago, it was the first time for me under Medicare. To this day I have no idea what the actual amount paid to the hospital was because my insurance negotiated the charges down with Medicare and reduced my portion of the payment - which turned out to be a whopping $220.00 for a $10,000.00 hospital bill!!! And $100 of that was for ambulance transport. The rest was for a redundant test performed at the second hospital (I was moved to a second hospital for the stent procedure).


Before hubby had Medicare we were given a price we would be paying under our insurance, just before he was going to the operating room. We told them they were wrong. They relooked at the numbers and said we were correct about the points we made. They then proceeded to explain the new information, which we also said was wrong. They first wanted to give us a discount off the 20% of list! We gave up and told them to bill us, as we weren’t going to argue with them any more. They were off at least 10 fold! With a low cap we still didn’t reach it, but their numbers were way over it! It’s not the first time I’ve had to tell someone to bill me after they filed insurance, what a mess.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Allan:
quote:
Originally posted by Reed N D Dark:
Glad she sent you an invite too!


Can you imagine it, all of us together?

Mary Jean's neighbours would never get to sleep.


Yep, it makes me smile!
 
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My thanks yet again, bluelamp. Helps me get my thoughts in order.

quote:
Originally posted by bluelamp:
Noah and Moses do not read like they are written about guys whose main talent is Zoroaster-like channeling. Noah reads more like a fable about a guy with building as the main talent. To the extent it's loosely based on someone real, the revealing talent doesn't seem much better than my dream about 9-11 before 9-11.


Can never forget my prophetic dream. Woke absolutely shattered, an experience further reinforced by the fact that fulfilment of the prophecy came in that day's mail. Never experienced anything like that before or since, thank the Great Goddess. At least She forewarned me.

Obvious to me that Moses was a priest of a storm god, hence his call to translate those thunder claps and thunder rolls. Read decades ago how easy it was to do that with the Hebrew language, though I have no doubt whatsoever this was a role of all storm-god priests.

As always, I see our Christianised or, better, Churchianised Eurocentrism put virtually everyone on the wrong track. Had it not been for Constantine, all three Abrahamic religions would have gone the way of Cernunnos, Jupiter, Zeus, though, as with the revival of Zeus worship in Greece today, there still would be adherents to all three.

What we should have done, and increasing numbers are doing, was to pick up the far more mature and realistic, [but problematically and thus unacceptably Asian], Hinduism or, better still, the non-religious Buddhist philosophy.

I've finally started reading Peter Ackroyd's Blake, and it is really hitting the mark. I thought I knew Charles Dickens' London but, in his first couple of chapters, Ackroyd has painted an even grimmer picture.

Better yet, he goes into the Christianity of William Blake's time, and it is not nice. I got this Ezekiel obscenity from him:

Ezekiel 7:14-5:
14 They sound the shofar and they prepare everyone, but no one goes forth to war, because My wrath is upon all her multitude.
15 The sword is outside, and the pestilence and the famine are inside; whoever is in the field will die by the sword, and whoever is in the city-famine and pestilence will consume him.
16 And their survivors will escape, and they will be upon the mountains; like the doves of the valleys, they all moan, each one for his iniquity.
17 All hands will weaken, and all knees will go [like] water.
18 And they will gird themselves with sackcloth, and terror will cover them, with shame on every face and baldness on all their heads.

That was never the Bible I was taught as a child, but it certainly is the Bible I came to know in later years.

Along with this type:

Deuteronomy 32:25
Outside, the sword will take their children, and inside, terror will strike the young man and the young woman, the infant and the gray-haired man.

Jeremiah 14:18
If I go out to the country, I see those slain by the sword; if I enter the city, I see those ravaged by famine! For both prophet and priest travel to a land they do not know."

Ezekiel 12:16
But I will spare a few of them from the sword, famine, and plague, so that they can tell of all their abominations among the nations to which they go. Then they will know that I am the LORD."

Lamentations 1
20 Behold, O LORD; for I am in distress: my bowels are troubled; mine heart is turned within me; for I have grievously rebelled: abroad the sword bereaveth, at home there is as death.
21People have heard my groaning, but there is no one to comfort me. All my enemies have heard of my trouble; they are glad that You have caused it. May You bring the day You have announced, so that they may become like me.…

That is what William Blake and so many others were brought up in, along with the abominable doctrine of Original Sin. No wonder the posse is as it is.

It is what all too many of us today, whether we are believers or not, have deeply embedded in our sub-conscious.

We really need to tear that apart, expose the sins of those high priests.

Instead, we should taught the real truth; we are born innocent, genetically programmed, as all evolved social/tribal animals are, to learn how to behave in a way that benefits the tribe. I can think of only one reason Churchianity chose to ignore the Judaic yetzer ha-tov/yetzer ha-ra.

http://www.oxfordreference.com...ty.20110803125333955
‘The good inclination and the evil inclination.’ In the typical Rabbinic doctrine, with far-reaching consequences in Jewish religious thought, every human being has two inclinations or instincts, one pulling upwards, the other downwards. These are the ‘good inclination’—yetzer ha-tov—and the ‘evil inclination’—yetzer ha-ra. The ‘evil inclination’ is frequently identified in the Rabbinic literature and elsewhere with the sex instinct but the term also denotes physical appetites in general, aggressive emotions, and unbridled ambition. Although it is called the ‘evil inclination’, because it can easily lead to wrongdoing, it really denotes more the propensity towards evil rather than something evil in itself. Indeed, in the Rabbinic scheme, the ‘evil inclination’ provides human life with its driving power and as such is essential to human life. As a well-known Midrash (Genesis Rabbah 9: 7) puts it, were it not for the ‘evil inclination’ no one would build a house or have children or engage in ... One of the most remarkable Rabbinic passages in this connection states that the Torah is the antidote to the poison of the ‘evil inclination ’ (Kiddushin 30b). The meaning appears to be that when the Torah is studied and when there is submission to its discipline, morbid guilt-feelings are banished and life is no longer clouded by the fear that the ‘evil inclination’ will bring about one's ruination.

That is a valid interpretation of the genetic program integral to all humans. As I posted some time back, Hitler, Stalin, and Ceaușescu all had major problems with their fathers, two of whom were alcoholics, and Stalin was under enormous pressure from his mother to become a priest. What chance did that trinity have?

Historian Alan Bullock described Alois (Adolf's father) as "hard, unsympathetic and short-tempered".[28] wiki

https://www.theguardian.com/wo...earch.secondworldwar
One excerpt describes the violence exercised by Hitler's father, also called Alois, and how Adolf's mother tried to protect her son from regular beatings.
"Fearing that the father could no longer control himself in his unbridled rage, she [Adolf's mother] decides to put an end to the beating.
"She goes up to the attic, covers Adolf who is lying on the floor, but cannot deflect the father's final blow. Without a sound she absorbs it."

http://spartacus-educational.com/GERhitler.htm
Adolf Hitler also found it very distressing to see his mother suffering from "drunken beatings".

quote:
Tiamat-like legends are everywhere:


You sure?

Closest I can come is in the Greek, where Chronus' mob violently replaced the Titans. Chronus' son Zeus rebelled successfully against his father and was himself facing a rebellion from his own son. Those, to me, are nothing more than mythologies reflecting the changes in zodiacal Ages. It is probable, though, that these mythologies also reflected tribal wars, where the deities of the winner defeated the deities of the loser, just as Marduk (and others) defeated Adonai.

So where did Enoch's Fallen Watchers come from? Was it a reflection of the divisive sectarianism embedded in Jews?

quote:
The motif of Chaoskampf (German: [ˈkaːɔsˌkampf], "struggle against chaos") is ubiquitous in myth and legend, depicting a battle of a culture hero deity with a chaos monster, often in the shape of a serpent or dragon. The same term has also been extended to parallel concepts in the religions of the ancient Near East, such as the abstract conflict of ideas in the Egyptian duality of Maat and Isfet.[citation needed]


That, for me, is an entirely different theme. As your reference says, it is one of order versus chaos.

Abram rebelled against his unnamed king, and his deity replaced the gods his king worshipped. Exiled to Babylon, the Jews learned Tiamat rebelled against Enlil.

That is the context I need to examine.
 
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quote:
Obvious to me that Moses was a priest of a storm god, hence his call to translate those thunder claps and thunder rolls. Read decades ago how easy it was to do that with the Hebrew language, though I have no doubt whatsoever this was a role of all storm-god priests.


Moses is a bit of a composite character and one of them seems to be Xerxes:

http://vridar.info/otorigins/mosesxerxes.htm

I do think the storm god adds in via Suppiluliuma I:

http://wyattnewsletters.com/exodus/ex22.htm

quote:
The Hattian Storm-god, my lord, by his decision even then let my father prevail; he vanquished and smote the foot soldiers and charioteers of the country of Egypt. But when he brought back to the Hatti land the prisoners which they had taken, a plague broke out among the prisoners and they began to die.


quote:
What we should have done, and increasing numbers are doing, was to pick up the far more mature and realistic, [but problematically and thus unacceptably Asian], Hinduism or, better still, the non-religious Buddhist philosophy.


Zoroaster works too! Avesta and Vedas are very similar. The Hindu Sri Yantra and the Buddhist bhavachakra relate to the Jewish Sefirot and Gurdjieff's Enneagram. The Enneagram journal with my papers had a Buddhist editor. He relates all of those things (which inspired me to relate them with math).

quote:
Ezekiel 7:14-5:
14 They sound the shofar and they prepare everyone, but no one goes forth to war, because My wrath is upon all her multitude.
15 The sword is outside, and the pestilence and the famine are inside; whoever is in the field will die by the sword, and whoever is in the city-famine and pestilence will consume him.
16 And their survivors will escape, and they will be upon the mountains; like the doves of the valleys, they all moan, each one for his iniquity.
17 All hands will weaken, and all knees will go [like] water.
18 And they will gird themselves with sackcloth, and terror will cover them, with shame on every face and baldness on all their heads.


Flying Titans with swords and pestilence means comet fragments which is built into spacetime if we mess up with respect to hospitality/theoxeny.

quote:

Deuteronomy 32:25
Outside, the sword will take their children, and inside, terror will strike the young man and the young woman, the infant and the gray-haired man.

Jeremiah 14:18
If I go out to the country, I see those slain by the sword; if I enter the city, I see those ravaged by famine! For both prophet and priest travel to a land they do not know."

Ezekiel 12:16
But I will spare a few of them from the sword, famine, and plague, so that they can tell of all their abominations among the nations to which they go. Then they will know that I am the LORD."

Lamentations 1
20 Behold, O LORD; for I am in distress: my bowels are troubled; mine heart is turned within me; for I have grievously rebelled: abroad the sword bereaveth, at home there is as death.
21People have heard my groaning, but there is no one to comfort me. All my enemies have heard of my trouble; they are glad that You have caused it. May You bring the day You have announced, so that they may become like me.


More swords and plagues. I personally cannot read the Bible without seeing comets everywhere.

quote:
That is what William Blake and so many others were brought up in, along with the abominable doctrine of Original Sin. No wonder the posse is as it is.


Dorothy wasn't cautious and strayed too far from her network and gave the wicked witches an opening. All there is is lessons. Sin is really just whatever gets you away from your network which hopefully gets you back to Kansas eventually.

quote:
Instead, we should be learning the real truth; we are born innocent, genetically programmed, as all evolved social/tribal animals are, to learn how to behave in a way that benefits the tribe.


Hopefully like with Dorothy, it's a tribe on the yellow brick road back to Kansas via dudes behind the curtain (petty tyrants are lessons).

quote:
That is a valid interpretation of the genetic program integral to all humans. As I posted some time back, Hitler, Stalin, and Ceaușescu all had major problems with their fathers...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_ponerology

quote:
Łobaczewski adopted the term "ponerology", which is derived from the Greek word poneros, from the branch of theology dealing with the study of evil. According to Łobaczewski, all societies vacillate between "happy times" and "unhappy times." During happy times, societies enjoy prosperity and suppress advanced psychological knowledge of psychopathological influence in the corridors of power. Though happy, these times are not necessarily morally advanced as the society's prosperity or happiness may be premised on the oppression of a target group. During unhappy times, the intelligentsia and society at large can recover this specialized knowledge to resolve the social order along mentally healthier lines.

A form of government interesting to ponerologists is one they have called pathocracy, in which individuals with personality disorders (especially psychopathy) occupy positions of power and influence. The result is a totalitarian system characterized by a government turned against its own people. A pathocracy may emerge when a society is insufficiently guarded against the typical and inevitable minority of such abnormal pathology, which Łobaczewski asserts is caused by biology or genetics. He argues that in such cases these individuals infiltrate an institution or state, prevailing moral values are perverted into their opposite, and a coded language like Orwell's doublethink circulates into the mainstream, using paralogic and paramoralism in place of genuine logic and morality.

There are various identifiable stages of pathocracy described by Łobaczewski. Ultimately, each pathocracy is foredoomed because the root of healthy social morality, according to Łobaczewski, is contained in the congenital instinctive infrastructure in the vast majority of the population. While some in the normal population are more susceptible to pathocratic influence, and become its lackeys, the majority instinctively resist.


quote:
Closest I can come is in the Greek, where Chronus' mob violently replaced the Titans. Chronus' son Zeus rebelled successfully against his father and was himself facing a rebellion from his son. Those, to me, are nothing more than mythologies reflecting the changes in zodiacal Ages.


I think of those as changes in what the dominant looking comet fragment was.

From "The Origin of Comets by M.E. Bailey, S.V.M. Clube and W.M. Napier, astronomers/astrophysicists.

quote:
Broadly speaking, historians now recognize the existence of four phases in the evolution of astronomy: judicial astrology, zodiacal astrology, horoscopic astrology and scientific astronomy. The first of these phases, judicial astrology, implied a very strong connexion between purposeful celestial bodies and harmful events on earth.


quote:
So where did Enoch's Fallen Watchers come from? Was it a reflection of the divisive sectarianism embedded in Jews?
For me it's kind of a mixed metaphor using ancient comet symbolism (fallen angels and giants) to describe Zoroaster-like evil spirits. They really didn't fall; they were evil to begin with.

quote:
That, for me, is an entirely different theme. As your reference says, it is one of order versus chaos.

Abram rebelled against his unnamed king and his deity replaced the gods his king worshipped. Exiled to Babylon, the Jews learned Tiamat rebelled against Enlil.

That is the context I need to examine.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

quote:
In the second Chaoskampf Tiamat is considered the monstrous embodiment of primordial chaos.[6] Some sources identify her with images of a sea serpent or dragon... Enraged, she, too, wars upon her husband's murderers, taking on the form of a massive sea dragon, she is then slain by Enki's son, the storm-god Marduk...


For me the Tiamat battle is the normal thunderbolt wielding god (Zeus, Thor, Indra) taking out a monster (Typhon, Jormungandr, Vritra) aka plasma discharges blowing up a comet fragment. Was certainly quite chaotic. Tiamat could certainly effect how Jews might think of Leviathan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...he_righteous_Abraham

quote:
Accounts considered canonical place the building of the Tower many generations before Abraham's birth (as in the Bible, also Jubilees); however in others, it is a later rebellion after Nimrod failed in his confrontation with Abraham. In still other versions, Nimrod does not give up after the Tower fails, but goes on to try storming Heaven in person, in a chariot driven by birds.

The story attributes to Abraham elements from the story of Moses' birth (the cruel king killing innocent babies, with the midwives ordered to kill them) and from the careers of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who emerged unscathed from the fire. Nimrod is thus given attributes of two archetypal cruel and persecuting kings - Nebuchadnezzar and Pharaoh. Some Jewish traditions also identified him with Cyrus, whose birth according to Herodotus was accompanied by portents, which made his grandfather try to kill him.


I think the Tower of Babel represents trying to connect to God for selfish power reasons instead of for the betterment of all and that would represent something to rebel against.
 
Posts: 1149 | Location: Tucson, AZ | Mbr Since: 04-23-2009Report This Post
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In all fairness, bluelamp, I feel I should advise you my Confirmation Bias is taking quite a fancy to you.

As you know, She has long insisted there is nothing whatsoever original in the Bible. What is adding to your attraction is that She has been nagging me to explore the impact of the far more original, more inventive, and better-educated Greeks. I insisted the assorted Greek cities rose to power too late to have any real impact on the development of the Tanakh, and of course you are now confirming what She has insisted on. You and JR, in fact, because JR led Her to Margaret Barker, thus bringing the final version of the Tanakh well into Her stated time period.

Those later Jews had every reason to fear the Greeks, especially Greek originality, their scientific inventiveness. Educated though they undoubtedly were, those Jewish leaders seem to have completely lacked originality. I would add that, as a minor, irrelevant, culture, they had little option but to borrow from the real powers. We already know how much they owe to the Sumerians and the Egyptians, now all we need do is establish where else their borrowings came from.

I have finally accepted that I, as a cosmopolitan, do indeed resent the fact that European scholars far too often ignore the real originators of Jewish mythology. Nothing personal against Jews, as I have long insisted that we all need to take on board their love and respect for the family, their history, culture and, perhaps especially, education. We in the West are fast losing ground because we no longer respect education and those who teach it.

https://www.ducksters.com/hist...ent_greek_athens.php
Athens is one of the great cities of the world. During the time of the Ancient Greeks it was the center of power, art, science, and philosophy in the world. Athens is one of the oldest cities in the world as well, with recorded history going back over 3400 years. It is the birth place of democracy and the heart of the Ancient Greek civilization.

Had it not been for Constantine, the Abrahamic deities would have gone the way the Greek deities were going, and we would now be much further along the righteous path to spiritual maturity.

In addition, you are compounding your attractiveness with your reference to Suppiluliuma I. ICB has long been looking for support for our insistence that scholars should be paying far more attention to those northern regions from Greece through Anatolia to the Balkans, and here you are leading us to https://www.shorthistory.org/a...empire-1430-1200-bc/

What more could we have asked for than a direct link between the Hittites and the Egyptians?

Better still, long before we became involved with our mob, we read a claim that the Tanakh was the only source of information on the Hittites, and Churchianity scholars took great delight when archaeologists established they did indeed exist. That, they insisted, proved just how accurate their Bible is.

https://www.ancient.eu/hittite/
Little was known of the Hittites other than the references from the Bible and fragmentary documentation from Egypt until the late 19th century CE when excavations began at Boghaskoy (modern-day Bogazkale, Turkey) which was once the site of Hattusa, capital of the Hittite Empire.

However, we seemed to remember a connection between Homer and the Hittites, which would be a far more reliable source. Sure enough:

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2016/2016-11-14.html
Two compositions are chosen as chief examples to demonstrate the ancient Near Eastern literary legacy of the Iliad. The first is the Hurrian–Hittite bilingual poem "The Song of Release" (chs. 5–7).1 The basic narrative of this work is that the city of Ebla subjugated the people of the city of Ikinkalis. The god Tessub requests Megi, the ruler of Ebla, to release the people of Ikinkalis, for otherwise Ebla will be destroyed. But the senate of Ebla, represented by the powerful orator Zazalla, refuses the god's wish, and as a consequence, although the text is missing, it is obvious that Ebla is destroyed as a punishment for its disobedience. The manuscripts of the poem are dated to ca. 1400 BCE and recovered from the capital of the Hittite kingdom, Hattusa.
This composition, according to Mary Bachvarova, provided the basic story-line to the Iliad, as well as to one of its most famous subplots. The story where "two humans argue before a human assembly over releasing a captive" (p. 133), while the destruction of the city threatens, strongly resembles for her the plot of the Iliad. Troy is destroyed because its assembly refused to surrender Helen to the Greeks. And the subplot at the beginning of the Iliad is equally reminiscent of the plot of the "Song of Release". It is about a quarrel in the assembly, when Agamemnon refuses to surrender his slave girl Chryseis, a refusal which brings about the plague as a punishment from Apollo (p. 14 and ch. 5, esp. pp. 139-142).
The second ancient Near Eastern composition to supply us with an example for a Hittite to Greek transmission is "The Cuthean Legend" (or "Naram-Sin and the Enemy Hoards") (ch. 8).

All we need now is to get back to the days before our breakdown, days when we relished our motivation, incentive and, indeed, our OCB.
 
Posts: 5046 | Location: Queensland, Australia | Mbr Since: 05-05-2017Report This Post
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